Is anyone trying to solve charging on the road?

[6zfshdb]

I apologize for that angry tone.
But all those companies mention 4amps for their own super safety reasons.

For a sub standard battery pack, one bought from aliexpress or just with dubious manufacturing no amount of slow charge is safe !

The Pedego would take 7.5amps safely w/o any issues.

Fast Charger 6A Europa

Charges your e-bike battery in no time: the Fast Charger 6A from Bosch The Fast Charger needs just over one hour to charge a battery to 50% capacity. This makes it the perfect charger for fast recharging while on a trip. The Fast...

www.bike-discount.de

In Europe Bosch already recommends 6amps for the 500wh pack ! That’s 48v/10.4amps. 6amps is above 0.5c and of course totally okay. Even 10amps would be fine, As long as not every single time. Is a name bRand quality cell and great well made pack.

Here is Lots of misinformation and fear. Again in order to make the sale.

2amps was the norm in 2015, now the norm is 4amps for newbies , 6-8amps for the connoisseurs with the Grin, Luna chargers....or 10-20amps for DIY proffesionals.

1-2years from now 6amps will be Considered normal charging rate.

The 15$ 2amps chargers were sold and are selling for 135$ here, 30$ 4amps chargers are selling for 150$ and soon you will have to buy the 6amp for 200$.

The Grin Satiator does 36/48/52 volts and any of 0-8amps With a TON of other features including adjusting the cable resistance . Oh wait that is to0 much for many EBR members ....

EDUCATION IS the key word.

Fast Charger 6A Europa

Charges your e-bike battery in no time: the Fast Charger 6A from Bosch The Fast Charger needs just over one hour to charge a battery to 50% capacity. This makes it the perfect charger for fast recharging while on a trip. The Fast...

www.bike-discount.de

It’s only 140-150$ b/c it has no features as the Satiator. And no, can’t buy it in Us b/c here is “safe” at 4amps.
Allthough you could buy it and use a transformer with it. Too heavy.

Charger: The eBike charging device for a quick energy burst

Quick charging of Bosch eBike batteries: 50% charge and more after only an hour. The handy charging devices are lightweight, robust and easy to take with you on any tour.

www.bosch-ebike.com

And don’t just read only from other posters and forums. Is good to open an actual book about this And other ebike technologies !

Ex- I am using an airgel custom made cover for my battery while you guys are still stuck with the vastly inferior neoprene 20th century technology for winter riding.
At -20C And with wind chill it can get -30C a neoprene cover is useless and The battery pack will be 45% efficient. Nobody tells you that b/c is all about sales....

Good luck and learn , b/c this is very advanced tech.

No problem. I understand the frustration some posts can create. I should have been more specific in my post rather than make a generalization.

I understand Charles Coulomb's "C" principle and don't dispute it. The point I was attempting to make is there are physical as well as electrical factors involved with high charge rates. Heat is the enemy of Lithium batteries. All get warm when charged but at what temperature does cell damage begin to occur? Some batteries dissipate heat better than others and will tolerate higher charge rates. There are many different battery types and we charge them under a wide variety of environmental conditions so it isn't easy to determine a safe max charge rate.

Case in point: I bought a Satiator last year. When it arrived, I foolishly tried charging my Pedego 48V, 15ah battery at 8.0 amps. The battery case became too hot to comfortably handle and began emitting an odor. That prompted my call to Pedego where I was told about the 5 amp max rate. Pedego honored the 2 year warranty and replaced the battery even though it appeared to function properly. I suspect it was old stock from Pedego's 2014 battery recall but I can't be sure.

You can definitely learn a lot from books but the same can be said for real world experience.

In any case, thanks for the information you provided.

 

[Ebiker01]

My point is, 28mph is not fast ( I will make an

It has to do with the weight , who is providing the power and other factors. Ebike is 30-70% humanly powered depending on speeds.

The cars, you just floor it, hold on to your senses, And do the turns precisely. All completely controlled environment.

Watch a bike race on you tube and you’ll understand.


A 50-60lb 50% humanly powered ebike feels very fast at 28-30mph but a 2000lb NASCAR ICE car (EEeewwww GAS) motor powered without any and completely devoid of a driver energy to move it, would feel very ,very slow at that speed.

On an indoor velodrome bike racers (Human motor) going at 30-35mph are very , very fast. Try doing that , unfortunately there’s no passenger seat there. Your legs will totally Give up before any adrenaline kick.



For a Real Road biking experience there is also The aspect to keep caution of all times:

-road furniture ( caRs, trucks, buses, pedelecs, pedestrians, bikes, lightposts, motorcycle, sidewalks, potholes, trains , animals such As dogs , geese’s, deer, , squirrels, road debris ) which is inexistent on a controlled track. Maybe the occasionall oil spill which would be stopped immediately. Not on a real road !! You still have to go fast , avoid it, b/c if you Force brake the outcome won’t be good.

The track is completely clean, same oval , isolated from external factors. It is fast but much less obstacles

That’s why they can just keep it floored at 160+mph , with only 30-40cars around doing the same. Going solo at 200mph is completely boring. Is just controlling your senses. No adrenaline there.

Tell a NASCAR driver to Try doing that with hundreds Of big variables on a random road !! At 160mph.
B/c of the massive weight it needs to go At those speeds that in order to feel fast.

 

[GypsyTreker]

You obviously have spent much of your time in actual racing situations to be able to dissect it as well as you have. I will look forward to Future dissertations from you on what will be, no doubt, a wide range of topics. In the meantime try not to bring un-needed heat to us eBike riders by drawing the wrong attention to this emerging activity during an eloquently described adrenaline rush

 

[Ebiker01]

wrong attention to this emerging activity during an eloquently described adrenaline rush

Yea I have plenty of diverse posts. I don’t always ride like that. I try to be a good Ebike ambassador but frankly lots of people are stuck in the past here with their gas cars. 1kw is 0.10cents locally and an ebike goes 60-70miles with 1kw...simple mathematics.

Where I do my ebiking Ny/Nj area most drivers are very , very aggressive And of course phone distracted also.
Is the SUV capital of the worlD , often 1 passenger in the whole 7tonS car.
You must be ON it riding fast and proactive , with lots of blinking red lights and a big powerfull front light In order to be safe.

I hope that it is easier riding for other people ebiking in most parts of the country !

 

[GypsyTreker]

Well it's been many years but I am very aware of that part of the country and your correct in how people drive. It's always been very aggressive and I can totally understand how speed is actually your friend in situations like that, especially on two wheels. My bad for assuming your riding was on bike paths. I realise eBikes are modes of transportation for many, even those who didn't purchase for that reason. After my wife agreed ( she wasn't sold on them, preferring her std MTB) and realised we could go riding together again, she came around. It has been a profound change in our activity choices. Being able to ride again is something I feel thankful for since a conventional MTB is out of the question. I know that anything new entering the mainstream will instantly have adversarial push back, as we are seeing on eBikes. Perhaps I am a bit too emphatic about making sure we don't get regulated out of our passtime. Thanks for being an ambassador, I know I try to be.

 

[BBassett]

I'm a life long cyclist who would like to use my e-bike to go farther and faster. For me THE biggest challenge is charging while on the road. Solutions include carrying multiple batteries and fast charging.

The first solution requires that people carry multiple heavy batteries, which eventually need time and location for charging.
The second solution, that of fast charging would be the most elegant solution, but is currently not available, that I'm aware.
Fast charging could be offered as an fee based service in any type of business that would support people lingering while their battery is charging, (ie coffee shop, bike shop, restaurant).

IMO the solution to this problem would not be expensive as BEV's are addressing it, and it would open up an entirely new vacation industry where people could tour as long as they wanted without having to worry about range. Think of the motorcycle touring industry, but where people actually get some exercise. Additionally, people of different athletic ability could actually travel together.

"Fast charging" is a myth. Lithium batteries are limited on how quickly they can accept voltage especially under less than optimal conditions, and ebike owners need to understand that the smaller the pack the more susceptible to stress they are. Since the batteries are considered expendable And the most expensive component on an ebike in the long run, I sent the following question to EM3 concerning charging my 30Ah packs:

Question - "I use a pair of EM3 triangle packs (28 & 32 Ah) and charge with a Grin Satiator. I take it easy on the packs when charging nightly but would like to know if fast charging a partially depleted pack for under 2 hours is bad for them. Say... for a lunch stop, 90 mins. charge at 8 A. If it doesn\'t push the pack past 80 to 85% (55.4 to 56.3 V) does fast charging stress the battery?"

Answer - "Those batteries are so large in terms of capacity that the charge rate, even at 8A is low for the cells. 8A for a 28Ah battery is still less than 0.3C – which is lower than the recommended charge for long-life. You won’t have any issues charging either battery at 8A. Those are very large batteries relative to the charge rate and certainly wouldn’t be considered fast charging. Typically the max recommended charge rate for a lot of the cells is 1C – that would be 28A for the smaller of the 2 batteries – however, there are other limiting factors such as the BMS etc. to take into consideration. Suffice to say charging below 0.3C is far removed from fast charging and there won’t be any issues.

I use a Grin Satiaton to charge up to 55.4V (58.8V max) when using 120V thus giving me an 80% charge, and a 300W folding solar panel that I use to charge to 56.8 volts or about 87% charge other times. If you're the kind of person that plots and plans every stop you make then a bucket full of small batteries and a cheesy charger should be fine... especially if you have a gaggle following a set course.

Ride safe.

 

[MinnesotaMiles]

Just out of curiosity, how many of the people posting to this thread have ridden long distances, day in and day out, where they had to at least sometimes charge on the road during the day? I know that at least three of the posters here qualify.

While I have not traveled long distance on an e-bike, in my younger years I traveled from Minnesota to the West Coast on my regular pedal bike, (five weeks) and made several other multi-week trips through multiple states with just two sets of clothes, a sleeping bag, and tent.

I am planning to continue the adventure at age 68, on my e-bike as I do not think I can manage back to back 80-120 mile days with regard to recovery time. I currently still ride my regular gravel bike on daily runs up to 40-60 miles per day, but not on back to back days, and not with the burden of luggage. The biggest difference between 1974 and now is the much increased heat, much, much windier days. (two out of three days), and increased traffic. What is particularly sweet about e-bike riding in the blistering summer heat, is the experience of keeping the effort just below the total sweat-out level, and let the air flow cool me. It's a lot like water skiing even with heat indices above 100. That is not possible on a normal touring or gravel bike.

My problem is choosing between camping or staying a hotel, just to get a charge. In Minnesota, the scenery is not as inherently beautiful as the Rocky Mountains, and one tends to just crank out the miles, to appreciate the flow and to get to a prettier place. Additionally, I'm not so sure on the availability of charging stations in local county and city parks. The Great Plains are even worse, with regard to scenery and infrastructure. The biggest danger of riding long distance on the Great Plains is dying of boredom, due to the enormity of the task, and unending flatness.

When I suggested the idea of long distance e-biking to a very fit cohort of age 64 (current Birkebeiner skier) , he jumped at the idea, and thought riding 120 miles a day at 18 mph, without regard to 30 mph headwinds would be blast. Several other racing friends and even ex-motorcyclists also thought the idea had merit.

 

[Ebiker01]

between camping or staying a hotel, just to ge

Why not just carry a big strong tent in a pannier ? then only a parcel of safe land is needed. With the 20$/day camping rate can get some other things...

 

[MinnesotaMiles]

Why not just carry a big strong tent in a pannier ? then only a parcel of safe land is needed. With the 20$/day camping rate can get some other things...

I need to determine the availability of electricity at tent camping sites.

 

[Mr. Coffee]

Why not just carry a big strong tent in a pannier ? then only a parcel of safe land is needed. With the 20$/day camping rate can get some other things...

Hiker-Biker camps in State Parks in Oregon and Washington cost less than half that, as are Hiker campsites in BC Parks.

Stealth camping is an actual and fairly complex skill to master. And given the confusing patchwork of private and public lands in most of the United States (or basically all of it outside the West) camping where you are not welcome can be an extremely bad idea.

While I personally consider it more fun to camp, and generally prefer it, while on tour with an e-bike your charging options in all but a very few campgrounds range from nonexistent to just barely adequate. And if you are stealth or wild camping there aren't outlets in the forest. As for solar charging, most of the time I ride during the day and don't spend a whole lot of time in camp except for meals, sleeping, and drinking whiskey by a campfire.

 

[The duke]

I'm a life long cyclist who would like to use my e-bike to go farther and faster. For me THE biggest challenge is charging while on the road. Solutions include carrying multiple batteries and fast charging.

The first solution requires that people carry multiple heavy batteries, which eventually need time and location for charging.

The second solution, that of fast charging would be the most elegant solution, but is currently not available, that I'm aware.

Fast charging could be offered as an fee based service in any type of business that would support people lingering while their battery is charging, (ie coffee shop, bike shop, restaurant).

IMO the solution to this problem would not be expensive as BEV's are addressing it, and it would open up an entirely new vacation industry where people could tour as long as they wanted without having to worry about range. Think of the motorcycle touring industry, but where people actually get some exercise. Additionally, people of different athletic ability could actually travel together.

Out of curiosity, what type of distances do you ride, and what size battery do you have? Have you considered a bike with a larger battery capacity? What about modifying the assist level to increase range?

I usually ride about 30 miles, which my 700w battery can handle on reduced assist. On the rare occasions I take longer rides, I've got a few locations where i can leave a battery to swap out. In one direction, there's a friend's house who let's me leave a spare battery in his outside closet and in the other direction, there's a tennis club I'm a member of where I've pretty much permanently left my 1 spare battery in a locker.

If I'm doing distances longer than my battery can handle, I'll plan my route past one of these locations so I can do a battery swap. I know it sounds like a bit of a headache and needs some planning and getting away from the most desirable route, but it beats carrying an 8lb battery, 2lb charger and sitting at a Starbucks for 4 hours while my leg muscles tighten up.

 

[Mass Deduction]

[...]
Answer - "Those batteries are so large in terms of capacity that the charge rate, even at 8A is low for the cells. 8A for a 28Ah battery is still less than 0.3C – which is lower than the recommended charge for long-life. [...]

0.3C is lower than the recommended charge for long-life? That statement seems wrong, since when is charging too slowly bad? Is that statement grammar-challenged, or am I comprehension-challenged?

 

[BBassett]

0.3C is lower than the recommended charge for long-life? That statement seems wrong, since when is charging too slowly bad? Is that statement grammar-challenged, or am I comprehension-challenged?

Little of both?!? He's Asian he's saying that charging at 8A is below the threshold where any stress is being put on the pack. So I can charge as fast as my Satiator lets me.

 

[tomjasz]

So I can charge as fast as my Satiator lets me.

Sadly this discussion can be very confusing to riders. Let's be cautious and not suggest readers start charging at rates that can damage their packs. It's about the BMS as much as the cells!!!

SOME BMS, especially those budget packs limit the charge rate and higher than specified rates, often 5A, can be a disaster.

EM3ev is golden and packs can be charged at 12A. AND the cells will be balanced at 90%.
"Maximum Charge Current 12A max (BMS limited)."

 

[BBassett]

Sadly this discussion can be very confusing to riders. Let's be cautious and not suggest readers start charging at rates that can damage their packs. It's about the BMS as much as the cells!!!

SOME BMS, especially those budget packs limit the charge rate and higher than specified rates, often 5A, can be a disaster.

EM3ev is golden and packs can be charged at 12A. AND the cells will be balanced at 90%.
"Maximum Charge Current 12A max (BMS limited)."

The max charge rate for my Satiator is 8A... it's charging now from the morning's ride.

 

[tomjasz]

The max charge rate for my Satiator is 8A... it's charging now from the morning's ride.

only because your smart BMS is capable. Do you use the BT app?

 

[BBassett]

only because your smart BMS is capable. Do you use the BT app?

Hey Tom, nope. I get everything needed from the milage, starting/ending voltages, and amp-hours necessary to recharge to the original starting voltage. Apps just make things easier'ish until the inevitable change in the App, or the phone, the carrier, the actual electronics, the location, hell even sun-spots (if they were bad enough). When EM3 has produced more of the non-BT 30Ah packs I'm getting another one.

Isn't the fact that production ebikes are sold with such limited batteries in both their capacity and charging abilities (inferior, or worse no BMS) one of the biggest problems with buying a production ebike? You feel so strongly that you warn others. Maybe that just secondary to small motors, or Worse... hub motors.

Ride safe, Tom

 

[BBassett]

No problem. I understand the frustration some posts can create. I should have been more specific in my post rather than make a generalization.

I understand Charles Coulomb's "C" principle and don't dispute it. The point I was attempting to make is there are physical as well as electrical factors involved with high charge rates. Heat is the enemy of Lithium batteries. All get warm when charged but at what temperature does cell damage begin to occur? Some batteries dissipate heat better than others and will tolerate higher charge rates. There are many different battery types and we charge them under a wide variety of environmental conditions so it isn't easy to determine a safe max charge rate.

Case in point: I bought a Satiator last year. When it arrived, I foolishly tried charging my Pedego 48V, 15ah battery at 8.0 amps. The battery case became too hot to comfortably handle and began emitting an odor. That prompted my call to Pedego where I was told about the 5 amp max rate. Pedego honored the 2 year warranty and replaced the battery even though it appeared to function properly. I suspect it was old stock from Pedego's 2014 battery recall but I can't be sure.

You can definitely learn a lot from books but the same can be said for real world experience.

In any case, thanks for the information you provided.

My batteries charge at 8A and they do not even get warm.

 

[tomjasz]

[

My batteries charge at 8A and they do not even get warm.

of course not. Paul worked closely with d-Powercore and developed a superior BMS. but yours is not a typical battery BMS. I can’t imagine them dumbing down a product as advanced and useful.

 

[BBassett]

...So for me three 500wh batteries do the job most days. I can charge two at a time on my bike. Typically the "spare" battery is only charged to 80 percent unless I know the next day is going to be heinous. So I can easily charge all three batteries overnight.

You do use batteries that were sold with the bike right? If you point out your "spare" battery is charged to 80%, does that mean the others are charged more or less? If it's more... you are doing a disservice to the packs and reducing their effective lives. If it's less... ah, why? The best thing for Lithium packs is charging to 80%, depleting to 20% and rotating the batteries equally. One of my batteries has more watt-hours than all three of yours put together but you can't juggled with it. As "easy" as it is charging with the battery (batteries) on the bike, and I do enjoy it when I can, temperature makes that impossible at times even "here" in the PNW. Unless you bring your bike into a heated space. If range is important to you maybe next time start with a frame that can hold a minimum of a 30Ah pack, or wait another decade for the new generation of lithium-oxygen batteries.