Interesting Times for Electric Bikes

[RidgeRunner500]

My wife and decided to get a pair of electric bikes, so I am doing a deep-ish dive into the field to inform our decision-making.

It seems there is a lot of turmoil, but at the same time, we seem on the brink of some breakthroughs.

The perfect bike for me would be a slack-ish but still spritely bike, with ~ 100 N.m torque, solid, reliable IGH hub, in a sub-40 pound package. It seems we might be close with the Avinox motor and some of the newer IGH offerings.

The term “game-changer” is over-used, so are we on a threshold of a new era, or just moving along a path?

 

[harryS]

I had to look up Avinox. Made by the drone company. Impressive. Improvement and innovation.

Well, don't research too long. I hear summer isn't too long in Canada.

 

[RidgeRunner500]

I had to look up Avinox. Made by the drone company. Impressive. Improvement and innovation.

DJI is an amazing company.

Well, don't research too long. I hear summer isn't too long in Canada.

Tell me about it.

 

[scrambler]

DJI Avinox M1 – in our big e-mountainbike motor group test

The DJI Avinox motor has some impressive key data. We tested it against the most exciting e-bike motors to find out how it fares on the trail.

ebike-mtb.com

More DJI eBikes Powered by Avinox Motor | Forbidden Druid | Unno Mith

DJI, the drone and camera technology giant, has made a bold entry into the electric bike market with its Avinox drive system, combining high torque, compact design, and smart integration. Since its debut in July 2024, the Avinox motor has rapidly gained traction among premium eMTB brands...

lfbikes.com

 

[stompandgo]

I don't need 120Nm of power. I have 85Nm now and I rarely use Modes 3 and 4. I want smaller and lighter in a lightweight flat bar carbon frame. There are a few out there, but I think this vertical has a lot of development left. The TQ HPR 60 looks interesting until you see their derating curve. If anyone can make a mid-full-power motor smaller and lighter, it's DJI. We shall see.

 

[RidgeRunner500]

If anyone can make a mid-full-power motor smaller and lighter, it's DJI. We shall see.

Indeed. I would be worried if I was a competitor to DJI.

 

[RidgeRunner500]

Indeed. I would be worried if I was a competitor to DJI.

Speaking of which, Mahle is coming out with a competitive unit - the M40, and more entrants are in the wings.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

If someone says they need 100 Nm it means the person has never ridden a good e-bike.
100 Nm is necessary for 25% grade long climbs.

 

[RidgeRunner500]

If someone says they need 100 Nm it means the person has never ridden a good e-bike.
100 Nm is necessary for 25% grade long climbs.

Since we’re discussing expensive luxury electric bikes, we are in the realm of ‘need’, rather than actual need.

DJI, Brose, Mahle and Bosch all have products coming out in the 100+ N.m segment, so maybe more people ‘need’ 100 N.m than you imagine.

 

[Catalyzt]

Since we’re discussing expensive luxury electric bikes, we are in the realm of ‘need’, rather than actual need.

DJI, Brose, Mahle and Bosch all have products coming out in the 100+ N.m segment, so maybe more people ‘need’ 100 N.m than you imagine.

What is your price range for 'luxury'? North of 4K, 5K, 7...? (I think in US dollars.)

For someone with health problems, 'need' for 100nm could be more of a need (without scare quotes.)

Having said that, both Stefan and I have some kind of health issue, and neither of us ride anything very powerful.

I don't need 120Nm of power. I have 85Nm now and I rarely use Modes 3 and 4. I want smaller and lighter in a lightweight flat bar carbon frame.

Ya, agree. Lighter bikes are the neglected segment, I think, even here at EBR. Most of the 'light' bikes reviewed here, it just means they weigh less than 50 pounds.

Having said that, and riding a 35 pound eBike, I wonder how much lighter I'd want to go. Over 30 MPH on rough terrain, it is a bit harder to control. Kind of happy where it is!

 

[Stefan Mikes]

DJI, Brose, Mahle and Bosch all have products coming out in the 100+ N.m segment, so maybe more people ‘need’ 100 N.m than you imagine.

These products are used in e-MTBs, which are for extremely steep technical climbs, usually in a gnarly terrain. So far, an advanced e-MTBer was happy with 85 to 90 Nm with the e-bike cost easily over 10 k US dollar. Ever more advanced riders were more than happy with lightweight e-MTBs equipped with a 35 Nm motor and a small battery and of a similar cost.

S-Works Turbo Levo 3 T-Type

The Levo delivers the unbelievable power to ride more trails through an unequaled combination of ride quality, usable power, and ride anywhere range. It...

www.specialized.com

This e-MTB was available not long time ago. A 90 Nm motor, 49 lbs, US$10,500.

S-Works Turbo Levo SL 2 LTD - FOX DHX Live Valve Neo

With its unmatched combination of lightweight, ride quality, and supernatural amplification, the Levo SL LTD delivers the best ride, amplified. FOX Live...

www.specialized.com

This e-MTB comes with a 55 Nm mid-drive motor and weighs 40 lbs. US$13,500.

Neither of these e-bikes is a "SUV e-bike". These are machines made for extreme sports.

Noobs don't realise "high torque" means "high motor power". Riding an e-bike at high motor power sucks the battery very quickly, making the range very short. Frequent recharging kills the battery fast.
Moreover, no IGH used with a drive belt is designed for motor torque higher than 90 Nm.

 

[RidgeRunner500]

These products are used in e-MTBs, which are for extremely steep technical climbs, usually in a gnarly terrain.

Your information is not up-to-date.

The Velduro Phantom is a lightweight, Avinox-powered flat bar commuting and adventure bike - rigid frame, rigid fork. They make a drop bar gravel version, as well, and sell the motorized frame for custom builds.

The Paprika 53 Model 25 GT is an Avinox-powered gravel bike with suspension fork.

Crussis is going to release all seven of its e-bikes, which includes cross-country, trekking snd city models, with Avinox motors.

We are pleased to announce, that the higher end series of CRUSSIS 2026 e-bikes will be equipped with the most advanced drive system currently available in terms of technology and performance - the DJI Avinox.​

All 7 models of CRUSSIS electric bikes with DJI Avinox drive unit, fully developed by three-time world champion Michal Prokop, will be presented at the biggest cycling fair EUROBIKE 2025 at our 165m2 stand in the Hall 12.0, Stand A14.​

The lightest carbon e-bike with DJI Avinox motor will weigh under 20 kg and offer incredible torque values of up to 120 Nm along with a maximum power of 1000 W.​

So far, an advanced e-MTBer was happy with 85 to 90 Nm with the e-bike cost easily over 10 k US dollar. Ever more advanced riders were more than happy with lightweight e-MTBs equipped with a 35 Nm motor and a small battery and of a similar cost.

S-Works Turbo Levo 3 T-Type

The Levo delivers the unbelievable power to ride more trails through an unequaled combination of ride quality, usable power, and ride anywhere range. It...

www.specialized.com

This e-MTB was available not long time ago. A 90 Nm motor, 49 lbs, US$10,500.

S-Works Turbo Levo SL 2 LTD - FOX DHX Live Valve Neo

With its unmatched combination of lightweight, ride quality, and supernatural amplification, the Levo SL LTD delivers the best ride, amplified. FOX Live...

www.specialized.com

This e-MTB comes with a 55 Nm mid-drive motor and weighs 40 lbs. US$13,500.

Neither of these e-bikes is a "SUV e-bike". These are machines made for extreme sports.

The Phantom flat bar is $7,500, not clear if NZ or USD.

Noobs don't realise "high torque" means "high motor power".

I think anyone contemplating this sort of powerplant understands this. If there was any doubt, DJI has released firmware unlocking 1,000 watts.

Riding an e-bike at high motor power sucks the battery very quickly, making the range very short. Frequent recharging kills the battery fast.

Having more power doesn’t limit range, per se. The DJI system has smart features to manage and improve efficiency. The batteries have higher power density per unit mass.

Moreover, no IGH used with a drive belt is designed for motor torque higher than 90 Nm.

Not correct.

Enviolo makes hubs rated for up to 100 Nm, and 300 kg loads. The Zen Photon has the Enviolo HD hub and a Gates belt drive.We’ll see if Enviolo update the specs to reflect the new hubs.

The 3x3 Nine is available in belt drive versions and is designed for 250 Nm of torque.

Stay tuned - I’m guessing we’ll see more announcements before and during Eurobike later this month in Frankfurt.

Time to revise one’s preconceived notions.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

How many kilometres do you ride on e-bikes yearly, @RidgeRunner500?

 

[Rás Cnoic]

Last week TQ released their new (or updated) lightweight & quiet motor with 60nm (up from 50nm). I saw a scathing review of the new Yeti MTe bike with it, on YT from a Californian popular emtb site that said with such low power in the world of DJI this was three years out of date. The same day a YT review from a well known U.K. mountain biker tester who also tests emtbs said it was incredible and the perfect emtb.

This is the crux of the long-standing argument of full fat versus SL. The Californian fella at E-MTB review only reviews emtbs and not analogue and so could not see the point of such low power and has been hyperventilating over the avinox bike.

Guy Kesteven the U.K. based bike tester has been reviewing mtbs and gravel bikes for 30+ years and for him the combination of Yeti's incredible riding quality, expertise with suspension coupled to this small and silent motor worked like a dream. It's horses for courses.

I am curious to see a review of a gravel bike with the dji, what weight? What battery size? As even if the system is efficient that much peak power will suck juice out of the battery and I'm not sure why you'd need it. Might be better to either restrict the nm as Orbea did with the EP8 on the Rise to conserve battery or for dji to come out with an SL motor that is even lighter but with a max 60nm or 70nm say. They might be able to do a sub 30lbs gravel bike with a 400wh battery for instance.

 

[kevinmccune]

My wife and decided to get a pair of electric bikes, so I am doing a deep-ish dive into the field to inform our decision-making.

It seems there is a lot of turmoil, but at the same time, we seem on the brink of some breakthroughs.

The perfect bike for me would be a slack-ish but still spritely bike, with ~ 100 N.m torque, solid, reliable IGH hub, in a sub-40 pound package. It seems we might be close with the Avinox motor and some of the newer IGH offerings.

The term “game-changer” is over-used, so are we on a threshold of a new era, or just moving along a path?

the low hanging fruit has been gleaned,however that being said,every once in a while something with enough improvements will come along to tempt people into dropping large amounts of cash the real game changers will be affordability and quality. now don't get hung up on torque ratings its been my experience 40-50nm is a big boost in comfort and ability,when you start moving into "emoped" territory price and weight jump another thing do not get hung up on speeds its seems miraculous having all those speeds the truth is the casual rider will not use that many,the IGHs and belt drive seem like significant improvements less maintenance always seems better by my way of thinking,if you are really hung up on the off road experience,"specialized" has some very good offerings toward the sort of affordable end of the spectrum and beware of the super fatties and you would be surprised at how well a very durable bike like a "Jamis" will suit for "gravel" adventures,if my budget would allow I have been very tempted by something like a "townie",I went very cheap and bought a 27.5 bike and after about 500 miles I am very afraid of it,so if possible rent something or do many test drives,above all enjoy yourself fresh air is nice!

 

[stompandgo]

Ridgerunner500, all three of those bikes look interesting. The Velduro frame-only option is moving in the right direction, and if $6,390 is NZ dollars, that is a very competitive price. However, I could not see any dealers in the USA. Without that, their niche just got a lot smaller.

 

[Chazmo]

Good luck in the hunt, RidgeRunner!

 

[Rás Cnoic]

Ridgerunner500, all three of those bikes look interesting. The Velduro frame-only option is moving in the right direction, and if $6,390 is NZ dollars, that is a very competitive price. However, I could not see any dealers in the USA. Without that, their niche just got a lot smaller.

Not sure that's the case anymore. The US is a bit of a bike backwater and too difficult for outside brands to navigate with tariffs and uncertainty especially small brands. The Avinox hasn't been approved for US sale yet which is a big stumbling block and Asia and China in particular are the booming markets. EBikes in China are fast expanding, XDS (world leaders in carbon fibre frames & sponsor of XDS-Astana world tour team) have 2000 shops worldwide the bulk being in China and these are like Specialized concept stores only selling high end bikes of which they make around 5 million a year. Extraordinary numbers. Europe and Asia is where brands like Velduro are focused on. Even Yamaha (ebikes) has left the US market. Velduro launched not at a US bike show like Sea Otter but at Shanghai:

Velduro Bikes

Velduro made a dream debut at the 33rd China International Bicycle Fair (China Cycle 2025) in Shanghai last week, rolling out its very first public display and riding off with the show’s coveted Gold Award for Creative Product.

www.velduro.com

 

[Rás Cnoic]

The Velduro Phantom is a lightweight, Avinox-powered flat bar commuting and adventure bike - rigid frame, rigid fork. They make a drop bar gravel version, as well, and sell the motorized frame for custom builds.

Very interesting looking bike and they do it in drop bar as well at 14.9kg but almost twice the price at NZ $13,999 so quick exchange rate - €7389 not the worst but ouch the difference between flat bar and drops! The fact they got the weight to 32lbs with a 600wh battery is very impressive. So maybe despite what I said, DJI have no need for a lower specced & lighter motor at that level- given how often you'll have the motor assist off on the flat then that battery will take you a long way. The big question remains the 25km cut off- I imagine with that power to hand it'll get frustrating to be constantly hitting the cut off. I think NZ has no motor restrictions so it'll go like a dream there.

 

[stompandgo]

I'm not saying that the US is largest market for e-bikes now, only that it has a lot of potential to be. There's what, 5 million of them here now? Lots of room for growth.

My point was, selling direct works for the low end Amazon consumer. Cheap is king. Not so with an unknown brand at a premium price, without a storefront presence and no reputation in the country. The bike shop is still the place in the US that a customer goes for quality. They want a good sales experience, and a place to take it to when things aren't right. It's an automobile mindset. This forum is full of geeks who like to play with bikes. We do not represent the average bicycle consumer.