Insights into the benefits of direct drive motor from Europe's top manufacturer GoSwiss drive systems

[Ravi Kempaiah]

https://www.radfahren.de/test-teile...E5XMvwiORXkzt7JqmEEfa9apAtbV27d54NmBql1D7v81c

Use google translate and enjoy the article.

 

[JRA]

They make a good point in that hub motors still have merit depending on the end users needs. Too bad they don't make a front one as I prefer a front hub motor personally, the front wheel drive feature is my main reason and I feel it balances out the overall weight distribution more evenly.

 

[bluecat]

@Ravi Kempaiah Thanks for sharing.

The are reasons, why Bosch and the other MidDrive companies are so succesful: They offer cheap, simple, but robust OEM sets to the bike manufactorers. The market share for 45 km/h e bikes in Germany is around 1%. If these customers are suffering from bad motorizing concept, nobody will care.

Maybe the ideal moment to re-publish this comparison:

If somebody came from outside into the e-bike topic, he might believe, the difference between a mid drive and a Stromer direct drive is like the difference rear- to frontwheel drive in a car.
Let me explain why the difference is huge:

Stromer direct drive:

• Motor on the axle. Power and strength goes lossless to the wheel
• Motor on the axle. No effect on the whole drivetrain
• No internal gearing. Motor is silent
• Recuperation and motor brake possible
• Motor complete independent from pedaling cadence
• State of the art 48V system
• Heat sensitive electronics outside the motor

Typical mid drive:

• Motor at the crank. Power and strength decreasing due to gearing effect and efficiency
• Motor at the crank. High abrasion on chain, derailleur and cassette due to the motors force
• Internal gearing. Motor is howling
• No way for recuperation and motor brake
• The motors efficiency directly bound to your pedaling cadence
• Outdated 36V system
• Heat sensitive electronics inside the motor

So, what's a mid-drive good for? They are excellent 25 km/h e-bikes for mountain biking. They can go much slower as a Stromer can do. Nevertheless, some vendors have pimped up the motor to 45km/h and claim them to be commuter bikes.

 

[smitty]

As usual...good stuff Ravi...

 

[bluecat]

L1e-b is essentially a coup d'état by the motorcycle industry in order to retake control of a category that was eventually going to jeopardise sales of low end mopeds.

Yes of course it is this!

Especially from Germany, I hear often: For this amount of money, I'll buy two (electric) Vespa, the best known scooter in Europe. The scooter industry does excellent lobbying at Bruxelles (HQ of the EU). Therefore, really fast e bikes will remain a niche product - and I don't see myStromer AG moving towards the scooters.

BTW: The EBR review sees the ST5 motor at 4.79kg, Bosch itselve declares its 45km/h Performance Line motor to be <4kg but the tough lock I'm carrying with me is more than 1½kg.

 

[Chuck E. Cheese]

The article missed some of the more subtle implications of L1e-b on DD hubs and Speed Pedelecs as a whole. I'll try to explain.

In theory, a DD hub is really not a good drive for e-bikes in Europe. A significant proportion of the population lives in apartments, not houses. This often means carrying the bike up or down a flight of stairs. Moreover a significant percentage of e-bike buyers are 50 and above, and many of them are retirees. The TDCM and GoSwiss drives are heavy and intimidate a lot of potential buyers. Contrary to what Stromer would have you believe, the weight of a drive has a significant impact on sales in the EU, especially when we're talking about a vehicle that's supposed to have a lineage with a bicycle. The other problem most bikes equipped with DD drives have is pricing. 7K is much too expensive for an ST3. In Switzerland there's a niche market for that kind of bike due to liberal laws for S-Pedelecs, but this doesn't extend into the rest of the EU because of L1e-b. You can sugarcoat things as much as you want, but nobody wants to wear a full blown motorbike helmet while riding an e-bike... Cratoni and the other helmet manufacturers don't have the solution here. Try wearing one of their products in the summer and you'll see what I mean. The necessity to wear a helmet implies that L1e-b vehicles will need more power, and this is where things get interesting for companies building DD hubs.

Although it might seem like Stromer's entire future is compromised by L1e-b, the new EU law might actually be Stromer's saving grace. When you read L1e-b, it's clear that Stromer not only has the technology that matches the spirit and the letter of the law, but it also has the means to introduce an entirely new class of vehicles. In this new category, the powerful but heavy DD drive is an asset rather than a liability. Most execs in the e-bike industry fail to understand that L1e-b isn't a specification for S-Pedelecs as we currently know them. Instead the new class designates a hybrid vehicle that lies somewhere between a moped and an e-bike. We're talking 4000 Watt drives and the possibility to exceed factor 4. The only real limiting factor is a total weight of 35 kilos and the necessity to have pedals. So we could imagine that the future for Stromer in the EU would be to add a line of moped-like e-bikes with more powerful drives and bigger batteries. These bikes would still have pedals and would require some user input, but they would be closer to mopeds than to e-bikes. The pedals would essentially act as a low level throttle thanks to the non-requirement of factor 4. Technically the bikes would need to have a more industrial design than Stromer's current offerings. One of the main requirements would be to build 100% waterproof bikes so that people can leave them out on the street. The 35kg limit means that Stromer will also need to reduce the weight of its bikes a little in order to allow for bigger batteries and other high tech devices, such as ABS brakes and blinker lights. To succeed, Stromer is going to need to increase its battery size by at least 50% with respect to its current 983Wh battery. If Stromer can pull it off, they will become the market leader and will have designed a vehicle that's essentially the iPhone of E-mopeds. Everyone will associate Stromer's name with this new hip product, and others will be forced to copy it.

Now, here's the million dollar question: will Stromer dare to do it? Because Stromer is really a very conservative company that's shy when it comes to technological innovations. The ST5 is a minor improvement on the ST2s, which itself is a minor improvement on the ST2, which itself is a logical evolution of an ST1. I realize that the ST2 was the first "connected bike", but that's really a pretty minor undertaking. To survive, Stromer is going to have to be much bolder and start thinking outside the box. There's a golden opportunity here that will most likely never repeat itself. And, unlike so many others, Stromer has almost all of the pieces of the puzzle. All it takes is an exec who understands L1e-b, and who is visionary enough to see that it designates an entirely new category of electric mopeds. If you ask me, L1e-b is essentially a coup d'état by the motorcycle industry in order to retake control of a category that was eventually going to jeopardise sales of low end mopeds. Any company that specialises in selling S-Pedelecs in the EU needs to really understand the implications of the new law.

The U.S. market is another huge potential for the direction Stromer is taking. Many states allow speed pedelecs without additional restrictions like licensing or motorcylce helmets. Ebikes have only begun to make an impact, but in my town they are the fastest growing sector in the two bike shops I am familiar with. If BMC can step up its Stromer presence and increase their dealer network I can imagine them selling enormous numbers of their bikes. Yes, the price puts them out of the range of most people, but there are 325 million+ people here, and a lot of those people do have incomes that allow for these extravagances. As ebikes become more prevalent and as bike infrastructure continues to grow I really think ebikes will be part of a paradigm shift in how people get around in cities. A powerful direct drive motor makes this kind of commuting more enjoyable and easy, and the people who would buy these ebikes often have ground-floor storage (home garages, indoor apartment parking lots, etc.) where weight is not an issue. The more powerful ebikes you describe could be very popular here, where many people don't want the commitment and hassle of a full motorcycle, but would love the convenience of a really fast, really powerful ebike.

 

[bluecat]

45 km/h variant has a 2Kw drive. It has a 1.3Kwh battery, so a very serious competitor to Stromer

Electric motorcycles with aggressive styling, built from bicycle parts and with alibi-pedals - known here since years (picture from Eurobike 2015). Do you remember El-Moto? They started with an impressive salesforce - the M-Way store chain in Switzerland. Nevertheless, they did not succeed to gain market share.

It seems, there was no big audience for an electric motorcycle at this price. Maybe, the younger people prefer the real motorbikes and the older people feel uncomfortable on such vehicle.

 

[Quantum Leap]

I have seen L1e-b compliant helmets from Abus and Giro, and they are hardly to be construed as motorcycle helmets. I wouldn't mind them at all. Certainly not if it made the difference in being able to get around on a Stromer or not. Of course, here in the USA the majority of people do wear bicycle helmets already, so one with slightly more coverage is no big deal conceptually. Hardly noticeable at all in fact. But then again L1e-b doesn't apply here. Perhaps the real hurdle in Europe is just getting people to wear bicycle helmets in the first place.

I just don’t see how Stromer can survive in the EU given the prerequisites of L1e-b, namely and most importantly the necessity to wear a motorcycle helmet. A Cratoni Vigor is fine in the winter, but come spring time I’m wondering if anyone would still want to ride around with it. [...snip...]

 

[JRA]

Bultaco has been working on this platform for a few years and it is good that LT1eb gives it legal status finally.

Here in the US eBike’s come under the jurisdiction of the CPSC, same as regular bikes. However a bike like the envisioned Stromer and Albero would be classified as MoPeds which are regulated by DOT. This not only means a full light kit, place for a plate and a horn but a DOT helmet, DOT rated rims and tires and a vin #. Pretty big hoops to jump through, something here I don’t see a bike as being discussed here becoming a reality, at least a legal reality.

 

[Quantum Leap]

Which ECE 22.05 helmet are you referencing? From my understanding that’s what’s required.

If I understand correctly (a big if!) the new Giro Bexley is compliant, the Camden too I believe. The Abus helmet is called the Pedelec+, marketed as a "speed pedelec" helmet compliant with the new euro regs. All offer definitively more coverage in the back and sides vs. a regular bike helmet, but are hardly motorcycle helmets. I have seen and tried on all three of these. Now if you are talking about helmets for ebikes that assist beyond 45km or have bigger motors etc., then I am sure an actual motorcycle helmet is required.

 

[Quantum Leap]

Thanks for the clarification on this JayVee. I was unaware of the differences you highlight between existing and proposed legislation. Will have to pay attention to the legislation as it develops.

From the perspective of transportation use here in the USA (admittedly a small demographic) the S-Pedelecs such as the Stromer are essential for achieving somewhat longer distances in somewhat shorter time. I would hate to see their availability dry up due to a helmet requirement in the E.U. There is really no overlap between how I use a Stromer and how I would use an actual moped or light motorcycle. The Stromer fits right in as a bicycle.

Better helmets aren't a bad idea in principle. But I hope the European Commission doesn't legislate the S-Pedelec into oblivion, as that would have consequences far beyond the E.U., as you note.

@Quantum Leap - I looked up the helmets you quoted and I’m not sure they’ll fall under the proper category. I suspect they comply with NTA 8776, but this is insufficient for L1e-b.

It’s important to understand that there are plenty of S-Pedelec helmets on the market, but very few of them are legal for use with an L1e-b type vehicle. NTA 8776 was proposed as a norm for S-Pedelecs, but it is not a legal helmet as far as L1e-b is concerned. This is a common misconception.

The blueprint L1e-b legislation requires an ECE 22.05 helmet, aka a full blown motorcycle helmet. The Cratoni Vigor is one of the lighter helmets which meets this requirement but it is nevertheless heavier (and hotter) than an NTA 8776 compliant one. I actually tried the Vigor in summer and there is absolutely no comparison to an NTA 8776 helmet as far as cooling and comfort goes.

 

[MarkF]

Wow I thought Bultaco wasn't around anymore. I use to ride a bultaco 250 dirt bike in the 70s. It was considered a good dirt bike back then.