Indiegogo - Down in Flames

[George S.]

The Sondo campaign was brilliant for getting free publicity. I doubt a lot of people who were used, to get that publicity for the Storm, will help IGG again.

Now there campaigns for ebikes are going down in flames, crashing and burning.

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/world-s-best-value-electric-bike-from-only-399

This same bike was on Kickstarter a few weeks ago, and generated several hundred sales. Now it has zero after several days. Looks like Dillenger got greedy.

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/ezy-bike-electric-bike--2#comments

This bike was $900 with a warranty and a low shipping charge. After sitting on IGG for a day, they pulled the campaign, as best I can tell. It had $0 when I checked.

Way to go, Indiegogo. You fooled 'em once, and now you are the Bermuda Triangle of crowdfunding for ebikes. Maybe Kickstarter can do OK.

CNET had a thing on crowdfunding and all the successes. Not one word about IGG. Maybe IQ 2.0 has made some real enemies in the media.

The whole crowdfund thing has just gotten sad, for ebikes.

 

[wa5]

Please dont think that I am supporting IGGs marketing techniques, They have zero customer service.... and have a wonderful economy with facts, combined with a .. um .. "very active imagination"... But I think the ongoing stellar success of the Storm at the lower end of the market, would make starting another Ebike at this time, a mistake... I think the failure of the campaigns above would have more to do with timing and the all conquering nature of the storm than any mismanagement by IGG.. or perhaps that should be perceived mis management... as they have hooked 7000 plus customers without offering any kind of real management so far...

 

[George S.]

You should get an ebike and get some real experience, rather than worrying about the texture on the Sondo lunch box. The Sondoze is a very limited bike with very limited appeal. What you are saying is that total Noobs are buying the bike because of the mystique. Well, great, but there are other markets, other bikes. Plus it's more about Alibaba. There was a bike on Kickstarter that was doing pretty well. Then someone noted the same bike seemed to be on Alibaba for half the price. The campaign has sold maybe 3 bikes since then.

They can't generate free publicity, that's the problem. People have figured out the Alibaba angle. Alibikes, or Bababikes, for low prices. Plus the Sondoze drifted so far over the top, it has drained the market of energy, at this point. You are dead right about that.

You gonna offer another repackaged Alibike? Tell your story about how you developed a bike, when you didn't really develop anything?

Come along with an original bike, like maybe the Biktrix 81, and see what happens. Buy one of those. Get some street cred. Sondors seems to be in China proving he isn't offering an Alibike. I don't know that I buy it.

Sondors never really sold the joy of ebikes. Or he sold a bike that lacked the one capability he stressed, some beach vision. Yeah, too many noobs chasing a foggy fantasy. All used up.

 

[wa5]

I think that most of the cheaper Ebikes are sold to Noobs who aren't doing enough / any homework, for the most part... I think you underestimate just how well the "Dream" was sold by Sondors / IGG/ 2.0... We both know that the bike cannot possibly live up to that dream, as soon as you put it on soft / boggy ground its going to struggle, but that's the reality, not the dream...

But I think you have nailed it, as far as media outlets being wary of IGG & Co... they have pedaled their exagerations (I'm being rather generous I think). and no media organization enjoys being played as the fool...

What about the Chutzpah of Sondors saying the texture of the plastic is an added gift... big deal...

 

[JoePah]

Please dont think that I am supporting IGGs marketing techniques, They have zero customer service.... and have a wonderful economy with facts, combined with a .. um .. "very active imagination"... But I think the ongoing stellar success of the Storm at the lower end of the market, would make starting another Ebike at this time, a mistake... I think the failure of the campaigns above would have more to do with timing and the all conquering nature of the storm than any mismanagement by IGG.. or perhaps that should be perceived mis management... as they have hooked 7000 plus customers without offering any kind of real management so far...

That's exactly right.. Sondors has sucked all the cash availible for the low end ebike market for the next 6 months. And a lot of people are probably second guessing eBikes selling for 2000 or more at this point, so the whole market might be feeling the brunt of Sondors IGG campaign.

Nothing succeeds like success and both KS and IGG have had terrific product campaigns in the last year.. No reason to think it is anywhere close to cooling down.

 

[George S.]

I think Biktrix is planning to bring the 81 to a CF campaign. That's a unique bike, and a pretty remarkable piece of engineering. I'd like to see how that goes.

As for bringing low end ebikes from China, with no real innovation, what's the point?

And a lot of people are probably second guessing eBikes selling for 2000 or more at this point, so the whole market might be feeling the brunt of Sondors IGG campaign.

That's kind of the deal, isn't it? Hard to say where that ends up.

A big question is whether Alibaba will become sort of mainstream, with a group of factories who will offer individual sales of "standard" bikes. But these will be at pretty low prices, maybe very low prices. Alibaba could develop like Ebay, with 'power' sellers who have a rep, and it seems safe to buy from them.

Right now, BABA is just too confusing. Run a search and get way too much information. But I think, pretty soon, if you want a 500w BBS 02, programmed the way you want it, you will find it fairly easily, with some buyer protections.

 

[wa5]

is the 81 a bit like the Stealth? that double drive chain looks a bit interesting (interesting odd, not interesting great)..

 

[George S.]

Looked pretty rough and ready to me. The Stealth are hub drives. This seems to be a complete mid-drive built from the ground up.

 

[wa5]

would think a clean sheet design could find a better solution...

 

[George S.]

I assume this is a prototype. They want to see what is going on. For a final product, they might 'pretty it up'. For safety reasons, I could see covering the drive parts that are exposed. The video shows the capability. I'd like to know the wattage of the motor, where it would be 'legal', etc. You raise an interesting point, though, comparing a mid-drive to a giant hub motor, like in the Stealth. A lot of people say mid-drive is the only way to go, and it would be interesting to see where they end up versus something like a Stealth, and with what power. Or even at what price .

They show it on the streets (Canada, I assume), and it's a bad habit to get into, showing bikes that are configured beyond 'street' legal limits. I'm not saying they are doing this, but it's not really a bike to ride down the bike paths around here. It's great that they are pushing the concepts, and I definitely want to know more. Not something I am likely to buy, but who knows?

 

[Mike Smith]

For anyone doing series research and due diligence to find the right ebike, like I have been, it doesn't take long to see that most of the ebikes available in the US are just rebranded versions of ebikes available from Alibaba with perhaps some slight modifications in components. The phrase "designed and assembled in the US" is a dead giveaway. If the was local service available and a way to insure cheap and easy import to the US on purchases of 1 to 2 bikes per order then Alibaba would be the way to go. Until that day comes, and I think it is coming soon, I think buying direct from China like with Alibaba is too risky. This industry is still in its infancy I am learning especially in the US. For those who figure out the best strategies to provide quality products and service to the mass market, I think there is fortune to be made. I already have some ideas myself for potential ebike business. Any potential partners out there, lol. Keep PASing.

 

[JoePah]

For anyone doing series research and due diligence to find the right ebike, like I have been, it doesn't take long to see that most of the ebikes available in the US are just rebranded versions of ebikes available from Alibaba with perhaps some slight modifications in components. The phrase "designed and assembled in the US" is a dead giveaway. If the was local service available and a way to insure cheap and easy import to the US on purchases of 1 to 2 bikes per order then Alibaba would be the way to go. Until that day comes, and I think it is coming soon, I think buying direct from China like with Alibaba is too risky. This industry is still in its infancy I am learning especially in the US. For those who figure out the best strategies to provide quality products and service to the mass market, I think there is fortune to be made. I already have some ideas myself for potential ebike business. Any potential partners out there, lol. Keep PASing.

Not really.. Almost all of the eBike are manufactured in China, but they are not all designed in China, or are a rebranded Chinese bike.

Most of the higher priced ebikes utilize Japanese batteries and bike componentts., and/or the frames are designed in the USA or Europe and built in China. Nothing like the Chinese designed eBikes

And anyone buying a bike directly in China is taking risk in multiple ways... The initial savings may be outweighed by the long term maintenance costs without a warranty.

 

[PIEZO]

I am new to this. You all seem to be very knowledgeable. There are two Kickstarter campaigns that would be of interest in terms of your opinion. One is called theFUSION, the other is called JIVR (folding e-bike). Any thoughts about those two? Any insight would be helpful to those of us who are trying to make decisions. Thank you so much for your expertise.

 

[Reseg]

The LMX build is all here:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=57668

 

[PIEZO]

The LMX build is all here:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=57668

Do you know when it will be on crowd funding? Any idea pf price point?
Thank you.

 

[PowerMe]

I think you guys are overthinking this. Most people do not 'shop' for things, including eBikes, on Kickstarter or IGG. Most people, when they want to purchase an eBike, start doing Google searches or they visit a LBS and then start learning. They'll encounter the most advertised or highly rated brands first (like Pedego or Stromer). Their chances of ending up on a forum like EBR is, I think, higher than ending up on KS or IGG. Funding a new concept or product on crowdfunding is more of a spontaneous action based on word-of-mouth (wow, lookit that price! So cheap! Get in now!)

Therefore, for someone who wants a product that already exists, is in the marketplace today, and is ready to purchase and receive their bike within the next 30 to 60 days, they won't be transacting on a crowdfunding platform unless they are willing to take a risk to be a 'funder,' not have a product anytime soon (5 months or more).

IGG hasn't ruined anything at all. IGG has not gone down in flames. If the Sondors bike fails there will be something else. Sonders doesn't control the eBike market, and what he accomplishes or not, isn't going to change the existing products out there. Just like when Yugo the car was launched, no one at Honda or GM or Mercedes or Chrysler batted an eye.

It's very possible some significant % of the people who pulled the trigger on the Sonders campaign never would have been seriously considering a well-known and quality eBike because the price point would be too high for them.

Just like Yugo's failure didn't hurt the auto industry, neither will Sonders big yellow cruiser with huge fat tires hurt the eBike market or the bike market.

 

[George S.]

Not really.. Almost all of the eBike are manufactured in China, but they are not all designed in China, or are a rebranded Chinese bike.

Most of the higher priced ebikes utilize Japanese batteries and bike componentts., and/or the frames are designed in the USA or Europe and built in China. Nothing like the Chinese designed eBikes

And anyone buying a bike directly in China is taking risk in multiple ways... The initial savings may be outweighed by the long term maintenance costs without a warranty.

These lines are pretty hard to trace. Panasonic went to Lith battery production in China 3 years ago, and they are partnered with Tesla in Reno. The Chinese have set hard limits (high limits) on how many cars must be electric by 2020, and those cars have massive battery packs relative to one ebike. To meet their electric car demand will require massive new battery production, and they do not want to import batteries.

Most motors do come out of China. And the other parts come out of Chinese factories, or from other Asian countries:

(Shimano) Headquartered in Sakai, Japan, the company has 32 consolidated subsidiaries and 11 unconsolidated subsidiaries. Its primary manufacturing plants are in Kunshan, China; Malaysia; and Singapore. (Wikipedia)

You go to a country for the low labor costs, and somehow the designs seem to leak? It's not like Shimano is going back to Japan any time soon. Rather, they go from China to Malaysia for even lower labor costs. So even more people know how to make bike parts from existing designs. How much intellectual property is there in a $20 disk brake set? At what price for an ebike does design even become a consideration? There is a basic frame, basic parts. You can give an ebike a 'look', but it's hardly serious 'design'.

As long as you are talking bikes with basic frames, basic parts, a battery with parts of some reasonable grade, and a motor, seems to me the Alibaba version will measure up pretty well.

 

[George S.]

The LMX build is all here:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=57668

Fascinating history. Wasn't really supposed to have pedals? I'm pretty sure it will never be an 'ebike', and I'm not quite sure where that leaves the people who have one. It's pretty standard for people to pursue high power stuff on ES. It's just hard to fit that into transportation ebikes, riding next to regular bikes. They sort of need a street category for this stuff, something not too onerous.

 

[J.R.]

It's very possible some significant % of the people who pulled the trigger on the Sonders campaign never would have been seriously considering a well-known and quality eBike because the price point would be too high for them.

Or any bike of any kind, electric or not. @PowerMe you make some good points, I've been thinking along these lines as well. For many funders it came down to pure impulse. Many of these ebikes on KS or IGG would be perfect for the checkout isle at Walmart (if they fit). They are the items your kids grab and throw in the shopping cart when you're not looking. Bright, shiny, pretty things. It works well for crowd-funding and particularly well for IGG where your money is gone even before the product is funded. The vast majority of products may fail, but crowd-funding will be here for some time.

 

[PowerMe]

Yes! And btw, the cheapie bikes sold at Walmart & Target do not really damage the bike industry either because either someone enjoys riding a bike and then they get to a point where they want to upgrade to something halfway decent, or they only ride very infrequently and a cheapie Walmart type bike is all they'd ever want or need. In other words, the main bike manufacturers (those like Specialized, Trek, etc etc) are not going to reduce the quality of their bikes just so they can compete with Walmart. One can't compete and the customers aren't the same. A significant % of bikes sold at places like Walmart are for children. And it would be a rare parent who would get their child an eBike of any kind.

So all these comments about how Storm is going to somehow change or even damage the eBike industry is hyperbole based on nothing but emotion. Storm might illustrate a different way to market cheapie Chinese eBikes, using pre-funding by these type of sites, but there's nothing special about the bike one way or the other. And, by the very nature of crowdfunding, a person signing up to fund any campaign HAS to be patient and wait and sometimes (like FlyKly or Copenhagen) wait years to get what they helped fund if it's an idea that has never been produced before. In the Storm Sonders case, it won't take years, but it will still take months.

If I'm BH/Easy Motion or Stromer or Felt or Kalkhoff or any of the major eBike players or component manufacturers like Bosch, I'm not worried in the least about Storm Sonders or the big yellow Chinese bike. It would be akin to the folks at BMW sitting there biting their nails over who's buying a Kia. Different price point, different quality, very different market.

Ultimately much ado about nothing because the market will determine success or failure in the end.