I did it again! Sport and Flow on order....

[vita10gy]

So if you could change something to make it a better riding experience for you, what would that be?

I'm thinking that you could reduce the amount of power across the board if it seems like there's too much. Pretty easy to do. (reduced tendency to ghost pedal).

Then, there's your ability to go to the 9 PAS level option. That really lets you be picky regarding how much power is available. Pas 1 will likely be too little all of a sudden, so you keep going higher until you get a grin on your face (just right!).

It's all right there available to you. Might just as well figure out how it works and use it! -Al

I just mentioned it in reference to anyone else who reads this thread later thinking they'll need to lay out for a gear indicator if they get an Espin. The "point" of an ebike is smoothing out a lot of the usual reasons people switch gears, so at least I've found myself almost never doing it, which cuts into the value of a gear indicator, IMO. (I mean, you do you obviously, I just wanted to put that out there so no one who has never ridden an ebike thinks "well there's another $$ I HAVE to spend then.")

I'll probably play around with having 9 levels sometime because why not, but for the record I don't really consider it a "problem" to "solve" that I almost never change gears either.

 

[AHicks]

I just mentioned it in reference to anyone else who reads this thread later thinking they'll need to lay out for a gear indicator if they get an Espin. The "point" of an ebike is smoothing out a lot of the usual reasons people switch gears, so at least I've found myself almost never doing it, which cuts into the value of a gear indicator, IMO. (I mean, you do you obviously, I just wanted to put that out there so no one who has never ridden an ebike thinks "well there's another $$ I HAVE to spend then.")

I'll probably play around with having 9 levels sometime because why not, but for the record I don't really consider it a "problem" to "solve" that I almost never change gears either.

On the bold, that's a fair point. It's a personal call, and my plan is just a case of my 'druthers/how I got used to riding. I KNOW there are people who are much better riders than I'll ever be - who ride without gear indicators on their shifters. Another case of me being spoiled, preferring to change the bike as required BY ME!

 

[BigNerd]

So show me where your R1U is able to shift up through the PAS levels AUTOMATICALLY as the bike speed increases? That's just about the neatest thing I've run across....and yes, you can turn that feature on or off as desired.

So is that what the "Auto PAS" setting was that another poster was asking about a while back (maybe @PatriciaK ?). That is a nice feature.

At this point, my biggest beef is the lack of an indicator on the shifter. It shifts nice, but I'm used to seeing what gear I'm in at a glance. No indicator is not going to work here. 8 speed Shimano shifters on order. (Shimano Alfine SL-S503 8-Speed Rapidfire Shifter for Internally GearedHub, -Al

Yeah, it's too bad their replacement don't have speed indicators. They are actually useful because they tell me if the gearing is off or needs to be adjusted.

 

[BigNerd]

Yeah, it doesn't do that. I'm sure I wouldn't use that feature though, because I normally operate PAS exactly the opposite, increasing it when the bike slows down (like when starting to ascend a hill or turning into a strong headwind) and decreasing the level when the bike speeds up (like when starting to descend a hill). It might be good for commuters who aren't out for exercise or otherwise want to go faster at the expense of using more power.

Or... this solves the issue that you always complained about Espin with power cutting out once you hit a certain speed.

Think about it, you are in PAS 1 and when you hit 10mph, instead of the power reducing, it auto shifts to PAS 2 to keep you going... and up and up. It's very useful it you're trying to go as fast as possible... esp uphill.

Funny how now this is at the expense of "using more power" but isn't that how power-based systems work?

 

[GenXrider]

Or... this solves the issue that you always complained about Espin with power cutting out once you hit a certain speed.

Think about it, you are in PAS 1 and when you hit 10mph, instead of the power reducing, it auto shifts to PAS 2 to keep you going... and up and up. It's very useful it you're trying to go as fast as possible... esp uphill.

Funny how now this is at the expense of "using more power" but isn't that how power-based systems work?

No, that feature absolutely doesn't solve any problems and works exactly the opposite that I use my PAS most of the time, as I previously explained. When you start to ascend a hill, a bike slows down, and you need more assistance, not less. When descending a hill, the bike will speed up, and you don't want the bike increasing the assist level! That's totally backwards. I can't imagine a situation where I would want to enable it. But since it can be disabled, I'm not considering it a negative about the bike, just a useless feature that I would disable. I haven't seen anyone mention it in the Espin Riders Group.

No, power systems aren't supposed to use more power in situations where you actually need less and want power to be controlled for maximum range as well as a reasonable amount of resistance to pedaling (such as for exercise). For any dynamically controlled power assist for riding situations, a torque sensor makes more sense, where increased pedal effort increases power output from the motor, such as ascending a hill, so exactly the opposite of the Espin auto PAS.

Also, I've never complained about Espin cutting out power once you hit a certain speed. I've complained about the OLD PAS on Espin that it regulated the power output to maintain a certain speed like a cruise control, including too strong of acceleration using low PAS. But, it sounds like the new controller's PAS is greatly improved, so THAT change may solve the cruise control "speed based" assist problem. Hopefully Al can confirm that is the case without having to workaround it by limiting the current level as was mentioned earlier. If it's truly power based assist now, kudos for Espin on the change.

It looks like the % adjustment for individual power assist levels is only on certain Espin bikes, like the 2021 Nero and Nesta, which is why it's not found in the config on the Sport and Flow. Espin doesn't make that clear on their website. I updated my previous post on that matter: https://electricbikereview.com/foru...ain-sport-and-flow-on-order.43111/post-430931

If they hadn't raised their prices so much from the $1199 price when I was first looking last year, I would probably be recommending Espin now, based on my understanding of the new controller's PAS.

 

[PatriciaK]

It was me asking about that feature . Someone else - can't remember who - tried it and thought the bike went too fast too fast, so I just left it on manual because I'm a slower rider.

 

[AHicks]

It was me asking about that feature . Someone else - can't remember who - tried it and thought the bike went too fast too fast, so I just left it on manual because I'm a slower rider.

I tried it (automatic) and wound up turning it off to. Might be nice for those who normally travel over a wider range of speeds. I'm a slow poke too....

 

[AHicks]

So is that what the "Auto PAS" setting was that another poster was asking about a while back (maybe @PatriciaK ?). That is a nice feature.


Yeah, it's too bad their replacement don't have speed indicators. They are actually useful because they tell me if the gearing is off or needs to be adjusted.

On the bold, it's the gear indicator that's no longer there. The one that tells you what gear you're in. The speedo is fine.

 

[vita10gy]

I have also tried the automatic PAS thing and didn't like it. I've been too lazy to play around in the menu to change it back, but literally any manual PAS change ever and it stops for that ride so I just bump it down 2 feet out of the driveway and it's fine.

 

[GenXrider]

It was me asking about that feature . Someone else - can't remember who - tried it and thought the bike went too fast too fast, so I just left it on manual because I'm a slower rider.

I have also tried the automatic PAS thing and didn't like it.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I would expect from the description of their auto PAS. I would certainly recommend disabling it, although it looks like a single manual change disables it for the ride per previous post. Just don't tell @BigNerd lol

 

[BigNerd]

No, that feature absolutely doesn't solve any problems and works exactly the opposite that I use my PAS most of the time, as I previously explained. When you start to ascend a hill, a bike slows down, and you need more assistance, not less. When descending a hill, the bike will speed up, and you don't want the bike increasing the assist level! That's totally backwards. I can't imagine a situation where I would want to enable it. But since it can be disabled, I'm not considering it a negative about the bike, just a useless feature that I would disable. I haven't seen anyone mention it in the Espin Riders Group.

I think you are making assumptions. If you are going downhill, your cadence will change... I'm pretty sure the Auto PAS combines cadence and speed to determine if it should upshift.

I'm not sure if you understand the scenarios where Auto PAS may be useful.

If I'm in PAS 1 and I hit 10mph, if I want to go to 12 or 13mph I either have to pedal faster... or I go to PAS 2. Auto PAS should take care of that for me.

This also applies for uphill... remember... I just recently rode a ride where I was going over 20mph UPHILL so having Auto PAS may have come in handy.

In the end, we both won't know for sure but based on how I ride my Espin Sport, something like Auto PAS might be a good feature for me.

Also, I've never complained about Espin cutting out power once you hit a certain speed. I've complained about the OLD PAS on Espin that it regulated the power output to maintain a certain speed like a cruise control, including too strong of acceleration using low PAS. But, it sounds like the new controller's PAS is greatly improved, so THAT change may solve the cruise control "speed based" assist problem. Hopefully Al can confirm that is the case without having to workaround it by limiting the current level as was mentioned earlier. If it's truly power based assist now, kudos for Espin on the change.

That's not how the "old" PAS works on the Espin Sport. I've tried explaining it to you but you prefer to assume how it works and I doubt I can change your mind.

It looks like the % adjustment for individual power assist levels is only on certain Espin bikes, like the 2021 Nero and Nesta, which is why it's not found in the config on the Sport and Flow. Espin doesn't make that clear on their website. I updated my previous post on that matter: https://electricbikereview.com/foru...ain-sport-and-flow-on-order.43111/post-430931

If they hadn't raised their prices so much from the $1199 price when I was first looking last year, I would probably be recommending Espin now, based on my understanding of the new controller's PAS.

Wow... it's a Christmas miracle in June.

 

[BigNerd]

On the bold, it's the gear indicator that's no longer there. The one that tells you what gear you're in. The speedo is fine.

Yeah... I wasn't referring to speed, just gears.

For example, my derailleur cable was slack, I noticed when I tried to shift above gear 5, the indicator wouldn't move. Sure, I could probably tell without the indicator but that was a telltale sign there was something off. It also helps when I'm at a complete stop and forgot what gear I was in to determine if I should just throttle first (otherwise I would have to look at the cogs to see what gear I was in).

 

[AHicks]

Yeah... I wasn't referring to speed, just gears.

For example, my derailleur cable was slack, I noticed when I tried to shift above gear 5, the indicator wouldn't move. Sure, I could probably tell without the indicator but that was a telltale sign there was something off. It also helps when I'm at a complete stop and forgot what gear I was in to determine if I should just throttle first (otherwise I would have to look at the cogs to see what gear I was in).

That's the kind of uncertainty I would prefer to avoid if possible. For the price of a shifter w/indicator (35.00 or so), that's exactly the kind of thing that I would want to do. I don't like the handlebars either. That's another personal preference I'll be dealing with, and just another example of dealing with my 'druthers. I can continue on with each item I'm changing and why (like the seat for instance), but it would probably make for some boring reading.

Honestly, one of the reasons I kinda like going with an inexpensive bike is the idea I can change stuff like this to make the bike mine - exactly the way I want it - VERY affordably. Does it make the bike as delivered an undesirable bike everyone should avoid? No, not hardly!

And as far as the controller and display are concerned, the jury is still out. As mentioned this setup is clearly much nicer. My plan is going to be to ride it for a while. If I get used to it, great. If not, they'll be switched. Just another piece to having the bike exactly as I want it - with no right or wrong calls in play!

I have a question for those already on the '21 model Flows and Sports. "Stiction" on the front forks. Is that something that will wear in and eventually disappear? -Al

 

[PatriciaK]

That's the kind of uncertainty I would prefer to avoid if possible. For the price of a shifter w/indicator (35.00 or so), that's exactly the kind of thing that I would want to do. I don't like the handlebars either. That's another personal preference I'll be dealing with, and just another example of dealing with my 'druthers. I can continue on with each item I'm changing and why (like the seat for instance), but it would probably make for some boring reading.

Honestly, one of the reasons I kinda like going with an inexpensive bike is the idea I can change stuff like this to make the bike mine - exactly the way I want it - VERY affordably. Does it make the bike as delivered an undesirable bike everyone should avoid? No, not hardly!

And as far as the controller and display are concerned, the jury is still out. As mentioned this setup is clearly much nicer. My plan is going to be to ride it for a while. If I get used to it, great. If not, they'll be switched. Just another piece to having the bike exactly as I want it - with no right or wrong calls in play!

I have a question for those already on the '21 model Flows and Sports. "Stiction" on the front forks. Is that something that will wear in and eventually disappear? -Al

Haven't noticed any "stiction"...

 

[jonny boy]

Haven't noticed any "stiction"...

It should eventually disappear. That is a pretty common problem with suspension forks. The seals just need some breaking in. Don't be tempted to spray a lubricant in there as that will attract grit.

 

[Bubsdaddy]

Is it possible to order and install the new controller for a 2020 flow?

 

[AHicks]

I asked them about that, and they weren't very excited about the idea, eventually telling me it wouldn't fit the 2020 "structurally". It sounded more to me like they didn't know if it would work and didn't have one to sell me anyway. I didn't push the issue as they didn't seem to care to discuss it and ended up going with an aftermarket KT controller. That involved changing some stuff around, including changing wire connectors. It was NOT a plug and play conversion.

With some DIY experience, not a terrible bad project, and it turned out absolutely great. Worth the trouble. -Al

 

[BigNerd]

@AHicks Not sure if you ever explained why you chose Espins over R1U or any of the other Internet D2C brands.

 

[AHicks]

I like the weight (55lbs), I lke the fact they use real BAFANG motors, the hydraulic brakes, I like the top loading concealed battery, the fenders and extra sturdy one piece welded rack. With the focus on those items all together in one package, even though they took a big price jump from last years model, they're still a great value.

 

[Gionnirocket]

After a LOT of shoping and owning a 2020 Flow for a few months now (just loving the light weight and style), we've purchased another Flow, and a Sport, which is going to be a project bike. Espin says the new displays and controllers have been changed so we'll give those a try - but I can tell you now they'll be on a short leash. My bet is they'll be replaced with much friendlier aftermarket controllers and displays from KT. Why a second Flow? The wife and I are snowbirds, commuting from Michigan to Florida every 6 months. This will allow for one less thing to lug back and forth on that commute.

Planned mods for the Sport will be some sort of air fork with rebound control, Schwalbe Super Moto X balloon tires for good ride and less rolling resistance, a suspension seat, and whatever need to be done to allow somebody my size an upright riding position. Basically, I want to replace my much modified '17 Rad City with a newer bike. At 4 years old, it still hasn't missed a beat, but clearly it's due to be replaced and I'm going to take the chance to update to cleaner (no battery hump) styling while I'm at it.

The Flow has already taken me by surprise with how sporty the 500w motor is, but we'll have a 1000w MAC geared hub motor held in reserve just in case. That will not be sold with the Rad City. Big priority for the project is to keep the Sport light while maintaining it factory appearance using premium parts. Parts designed to provide a great city bike. My bet is, I can do that on a budget that will be tough to beat when compare to other bikes with similar features - much like the Rad City project bike.

Will update as the project progresses.... -Al

Curious why you didn't double up and get a second Ultra motor bike (forget which one you got)?