Hydra has landed!

[TDA78]

Look like my UC Pro has the same derailleur and cassette has what's shipped on the Hydras, since it's the same I suspect I'll end up with the same chain skipping problems.
Honestly, I can't understand how a new bike can be sent out to customers knowing that the bike won't shift properly. I paid $6400 for this bike and for that kinda money I expect it to work properly from the get-go.
Having to buy aftermarket parts to get it to work properly is ridiculous.

I should have my UC Pro ready for the road tomorrow. Did you guys having shifting/skipping problem right away?
I do have a new, spare Shimano 11 speed cassette (11-42) that I bought a few months ago for my Cannondale e-gravel bike (which will need a new cassette in the near future). It will really be a pisser if I have to swap cassettes to get the bike to shift properly.
It was the only Shimano 11-42 cassette I could find and I paid dearly for it ($200 Canadian).

Shifting is fine. Getting the smallest sprockets to hold enormous torque at speeds I shouldn't be going is the challenge. The skipping I'm referring to is when the chain jumps a tooth on the same sprocket. It's not jumping to another sprocket. I'm sure we're asking too much of bicycle components.

 

[loamoaf]

KW that's pretty cool - do you feel the cutoff is nice and quick when you shift? I've got plenty of space inside my frame to add an inline shift sensor but the little I've searched out on them the reviews are kind of mixed. I imagine the higher report rate on the X1 would also translate to quicker shift sensing as well as the pedaling & braking. Getting it to work with the Di2 or AXS electronic shifters would be fool-proof.

@Lsthrz look at a video how to tighten/adjust the XT derailleur clutch, that may help with keeping the chain tight as well. I'd also say you want to flip whatever switch on your rear suspension you have to 'trail' or 'climb' instead of descend before you really give it the sauce (I think the manitou ones would be 'work' vs 'party' - the descend-trail-climb would be the 3-position switch on the DVO). Too much torque from the motor probably causes a little more suspension dip than the derailleur can take up slack in the chain to account for, probably much more pronounced on the smaller cogs. I wouldn't fly at high speed in climb mode though! I think one thing easily overlooked when we look at the suspension settings for our bikes is that there's the added weight of the motor & battery as well as us, so we should account for that extra weight to some degree when we're setting our pressures.

@Rome I have had the brown Ergon version of those grips for like 7 years and I love them! The aluminum lock rings are a little scuffed from falls but as long as you treat the leather with the oil that comes with them once or twice a year they stay so nice and supple. They're a little slippery for bare hands if they get wet which is why I told myself I'd get the cork versions when these bite it, but they're still going strong - and they're really grippy on my ski gloves since those have some weird gecko leather palms.

Definitely suggest checking out some GMBN tech maintenance videos on youtube. I have the benefit of working from home so I've been able to just open up youtube and let them rip while I work. That way I can sort of pretend to know what I'm doing! You don't need to be a bike mechanic but you should definitely know the simple upkeep and maintenance, and it's not all that obvious if you're new to it. That being said my previous bike before getting into ebikes got hammered on and still works - I by no means babied it but it was of course not a sweet baby like the WW stuff lol

@Deacon Blues I do agree they should have had that decided correctly from the start. They could ship the 11-51 with an 8100 derailleur and 8000 shifter and it would clear the 11-51 and work with 11 speed, or as Pushkar mentioned begin shipping with the 11-46. I think one of the keys for managing this kind of thing as a smaller company that doesn't have the capital to stock 7 different trim levels and ensure all configurations work on all frame sizes on all frames is to only offer a choice between two things for each major part (groupset, brakes, suspension, wheels) if any choice is given at all. When buying a whole bike you don't want anything to feel frankenbike-y. Having to adjust/tune out of the box isn't unexpected but parts compatibility issues is. Also holy crap $200 which cassette did you get!? What I see Canadians deal with price-wise for bike parts we could start a bike parts smuggling ring charitable parts exchange at the border

 

[loamoaf]

Shifting is fine. Getting the smallest sprockets to hold enormous torque at speeds I shouldn't be going is the challenge. The skipping I'm referring to is when the chain jumps a tooth on the same sprocket. It's not jumping to another sprocket. I'm sure we're asking too much of bicycle components.

putting Honda Accord torque through bicycle parts is asking too much? Don't speak such nonsense!

 

[Lsthrz]

@Lsthrz look at a video how to tighten/adjust the XT derailleur clutch, that may help with keeping the chain tight as well. I'd also say you want to flip whatever switch on your rear suspension you have to 'trail' or 'climb' instead of descend before you really give it the sauce (I think the manitou ones would be 'work' vs 'party' - the descend-trail-climb would be the 3-position switch on the DVO). Too much torque from the motor probably causes a little more suspension dip than the derailleur can take up slack in the chain to account for, probably much more pronounced on the smaller cogs. I wouldn't fly at high speed in climb mode though! I think one thing easily overlooked when we look at the suspension settings for our bikes is that there's the added weight of the motor & battery as well as us, so we should account for that extra weight to some degree when we're setting our pressures.

Thanks @loamoaf (again). A lot for me to learn here. I have the Manitou Mara on the back, not sure what 'flipping' I can do with that but will investigate that and the clutch adjustment.

@Deacon Blues The high gear "skipping" issue was apparent immediately with my bike(s) and happened on flat ground. It wasn't even at 'crazy' speeds either. Anything north of about 20 mph I would experience the issue in the top and sometimes, the top two gears. I was very careful to shift as best I could, pause to let the chain settle into place too. No issues when trail riding because I am not in that gear - all works well. As this isn't a commuter for me, it is not an issue I expect to run into a lot but you still want to be able to be in top gear when you need to on the road. Agin, I had the derailleur looked over a number of times by a couple of different LBSes.

I've now ordered the Garbaruk as well, but straight from them, so may take a while to make in over here. Looked like Wolf Tooth was not in stock and unfortunately OneUp has discontinued their cages . I suspect I'll play with the chainring size and brand as well in time.

 

[Deacon Blues]

I had a good discussion, via facetime, with Pushkar's bike builder this morning. I'm going to give the 11-50 cassette on the bike a try and do some adjusting with the 'B' screw if needed.
Unlike you Hydra owners most of my riding is in the smaller cogs for higher speed riding. I'll seldom, if ever, use the larger cogs. This bike will only see pavement or bike paths. If I want to be more adventurous I will ride my e-gravel bike.

@loamoaf, bike parts are more expensive in Canada, that's for sure, but that's in Canadian money. The cassette would be much cheaper in the US.
Also the shop I bought the cassette from is not known for its low prices, but I do like them and I'm happy with the work they do.

If the chain continues to skip I'll swap out the 11-50 for the 11-42 I have and probably take a couple of links out of the chain to maintain the correct chain tension.
It's not raining here (finally), so I'll be able to go for a ride.

 

[loamoaf]

@Lsthrz on the Manitou stuff it's the red switch/lever shown here in IPA adjustment. On the Pro versions you get separate low-speed compression and the platform lever is only 2-position

@Deacon Blues sounds like you have the right idea - honestly on a pavement commuter you really don't need the 50T unless you have some serious hills. The 5100 cassette I grabbed was $99 but they had the 11-46T version for I want to say $80ish - sucks for you guys

But yes as I look outside I can see the sun & the birds & the squirrels so I'm expecting some more pictures of KW's Hydra out in the wild later today!

 

[Lsthrz]

@loamoaf fantastic, so that's what manuals are for?!? I need you in my garage on a regular basis. I'm going to get working on this as soon as the Cush Core are in place. Thanks!

 

[loamoaf]

@Lsthrz idk if I said this already or typed it and decided it wasn't making into the comment, but if WW cut down on variety of their inventory they could totally just send out an email to customers taking them to a landing page with all the setup/service docs for the parts on their bike - just a way to aggregate all the manuals out there available on manufacturer sites - for the search engine-impaired

I like that WW offered the Tannus armor at no extra markup over the cost of the product. I have some Tannus in my 29+ set and ultralight Revoloop tubes, and Pole Bikes in Finland sent me a pair of free Huck Norris inserts with my 2XL's but I've read they tend to absorb some tubeless sealant, so I'm considering gluing a pair of FTD II inserts together for the fattie rims lmao. Nobody else makes tubeless inserts for fat tires and I already bought valve stems so I don't want to do the Tannus armor for tubes hehe.

Interesting to see about the lack of throttle on the Hydra though - I originally didn't want a throttle but have seen a reasonable argument that it can come in handy in a pinch on the trail if you're over roots or rocks that risk a pedal strike - really just something to get you out of a tight spot where you can't easily pedal as opposed to a main means of operation. Part of the reason why I shelled out for the X1 vs the stock M620 was the higher report rate so the pedal input is much nicer & I wanted as natural of a bike feel as possible. My hub drive is throttle only and while not difficult, it's by no means a premium feel trying to balance the trottle with my pedal input for whatever speed. IMO all the trottles currently on the market are ugly as hell and way too big, I wonder if there'd be a way for a throttle to be limited to 5mph as a 'bailout' option without it impacting the classification of the ebike.

In WA we have the 3-class system but I've never been bothered riding my bike around town, sometimes at 40 or so but never that fast on the bike paths and not even close when there's people around. Usually cruise maybe 17-23 depending, even though there is a posted 15 limit on the west side of the lake even cyclists on meatbikes don't follow that... as far as I'm aware I don't need any tag or license buuuut I've also only been here a couple years. I've also seen some interesting looking people riding down the bike path on stinky, loud gas bikes/skateboards without being bothered by cops so take that as you will.

For mountainbike trails I'm aware of the Evergeen MTB Alliance and they maintain a list/map of trails that are open to ebike access - idk how strict they are about that stuff here but there's an absolutely massive amount of trails in the state and it seems like the small proportion of them that allow ebikes is growing larger and larger. I'm pretty sure all shared paths are ebike-accessible as they're considered bicycles and not motor vehicles. To me, as long as you stick to where they're allowed & ride respectfully you shouldn't be bothered. I'd love an opportunity to take an ebike and haul equipment & supplies out for trail building/maintenance to kind of garner a little more good faith with the mountainbiking community and soften the remaining hard hearts toward ebikes, but all it takes is one jerk injuring someone, starting a fight, or damaging the trail to set things back. Like I said I'm still kind of new here but over the past year or so it seems like things are heading in a net-positive direction.

Legality-wise is one thing but I think the sooner WW adopts some standard practice that falls in compliance with whatever requirements there are for tax incentives on ebikes, the better. Probably involves a VIN/SN & getting their models registered with some agency. If they don't cap the tax credit at such a 'low' income level I'd love to take advantage of it for the Helios when the time comes - and as it's currently proposed a WW model would pretty much max the credit you could get.

 

[kwseattle]

I re read kwseattle's ride report and and did not catch any mention of throttle.

I saw news clip that Muleson shared where Pushkar said WW bikes are pedaled only.

Throttle is there and it works great! Lol. Though it is touchy like some others have mentioned. I bought some of the Honeywell hall effect sensors to upgrade the throttle on a rainy day.

I don't see a serial number on the bike, I requested some documentation from Pushkar regarding the class 3 status so I can insure the bike - I might make my own sticker saying that it's a class 3 bike.

 

[kwseattle]

KW that's pretty cool - do you feel the cutoff is nice and quick when you shift? I've got plenty of space inside my frame to add an inline shift sensor but the little I've searched out on them the reviews are kind of mixed. I imagine the higher report rate on the X1 would also translate to quicker shift sensing as well as the pedaling & braking. Getting it to work with the Di2 or AXS electronic shifters would be fool-proof.

It doesn't always work, but it feels like it's cutting power when I shift unless I'm putting a lot of torque on the pedals (which is bad practice anyways when shifting).

Since we had another break in the rain today, I went out for another ~6 mile ride after setting my shock and fork sag. Suspension feels MUCH better. I'm still getting used to riding on trails and thinking about gearing, and I have not been able to test if the bike will fit in my car yet for some longer bike specific trails.

When I got home, I was taking a look at the bike a little closer in the outdoor light and noticed the chain has been rubbing up against the chainstay and has worn through the paint and started eating into the carbon fiber as pictured below. I've only ridden the bike for about 12 miles. Not good. @pushkar

@Cuz Vinny I think it may have been you who said you were working on a resolution for this, a spacer for the chainring maybe?

Another shot I got from out in the woods today:

 

[Cuz Vinny]

It doesn't always work, but it feels like it's cutting power when I shift unless I'm putting a lot of torque on the pedals (which is bad practice anyways when shifting).

Since we had another break in the rain today, I went out for another ~6 mile ride after setting my shock and fork sag. Suspension feels MUCH better. I'm still getting used to riding on trails and thinking about gearing, and I have not been able to test if the bike will fit in my car yet for some longer bike specific trails.

When I got home, I was taking a look at the bike a little closer in the outdoor light and noticed the chain has been rubbing up against the chainstay and has worn through the paint and started eating into the carbon fiber as pictured below. I've only ridden the bike for about 12 miles. Not good. @pushkar

View attachment 106455

@Cuz Vinny I think it may have been you who said you were working on a resolution for this, a spacer for the chainring maybe?

Another shot I got from out in the woods today:

View attachment 106454

I completely changed the drivetrain on my bikes. I switched to a 10 speed rear cassette and an XT rear derailleur on both bikes. The 27.5 has a Garbaruk 44T front ring and the fat bike has a 44T Deckas. On the fat bike the chainring is mounted on the outside of the Christini adapter and on the 27.5 it’s mounted on the inside. The chain also has to be tight, not too tight that it snaps, but tight enough so there is little movement. On the fat bike I removed the 11T cog for a better chainline.

 

[kwseattle]

I completely changed the drivetrain on my bikes. I switched to a 10 speed rear cassette and an XT rear derailleur on both bikes. The 27.5 has a Garbaruk 44T front ring and the fat bike has a 44T Deckas. On the fat bike the chainring is mounted on the outside of the Christini adapter and on the 27.5 it’s mounted on the inside. The chain also has to be tight, not too tight that it snaps, but tight enough so there is little movement. On the fat bike I removed the 11T cog for a better chainline.

Gotcha, thanks for the tips. I'm not sure how this will be handled but since the bike is under warranty...

I don't mind too much spending the money to kit it with the proper things to prevent this from happening again, but to me it looks like a design issue with the Dengfu E10 frame.

 

[Cuz Vinny]

Gotcha, thanks for the tips. I'm not sure how this will be handled but since the bike is under warranty...

I don't mind too much spending the money to kit it with the proper things to prevent this from happening again, but to me it looks like a design issue with the Dengfu E10 frame

IMO an 8 or 9 speed cassette is the max I’d run on this bike.

 

[Lsthrz]

@Lsthrz idk if I said this already or typed it and decided it wasn't making into the comment, but if WW cut down on variety of their inventory they could totally just send out an email to customers taking them to a landing page with all the setup/service docs for the parts on their bike - just a way to aggregate all the manuals out there available on manufacturer sites - for the search engine-impaired

A centralized location would be a great thing. Some of us wanted a custom bike but did not overlay analyze every component and would benefit from that resource.

I like that WW offered the Tannus armor at no extra markup over the cost of the product. I have some Tannus in my 29+ set and ultralight Revoloop tubes, and Pole Bikes in Finland sent me a pair of free Huck Norris inserts with my 2XL's but I've read they tend to absorb some tubeless sealant, so I'm considering gluing a pair of FTD II inserts together for the fattie rims lmao. Nobody else makes tubeless inserts for fat tires and I already bought valve stems so I don't want to do the Tannus armor for tubes hehe.

I went Cush Core just because a friend a ride with is a huge fan. Tannus looked interesting as well. From the dual sport mc world I love the tubeless approach for lower pressures and better on trail maintenance.

Interesting to see about the lack of throttle on the Hydra though - I originally didn't want a throttle but have seen a reasonable argument that it can come in handy in a pinch on the trail if you're over roots or rocks that risk a pedal strike - really just something to get you out of a tight spot where you can't easily pedal as opposed to a main means of operation.

I wanted a throttle and use it quite often on and off road. For me, a definitive plus for a big motor bike like the Hydra.

This is also so quite personal, but I am completely unconcerned about legality and being stopped or fined for having an ebike on the wrong trail or too much of an ebike. Getting it insured is another issue but I'm going to be a courteous trail rider and leave it at that.

 

[Deacon Blues]

IMO an 8 or 9 speed cassette is the max I’d run on this bike.

This is something I'm thinking of for my UC Pro's chain-crossing problem.
In the 11 speeds smallest cog the chain-cross is so severe it actually kinks the chain.

Check out the chain cross on my bike:

 

[Cuz Vinny]

This is something I'm thinking of for my UC Pro's chain-crossing problem.
In the 11 speeds smallest cog the chain-cross is so severe it actually kinks the chain.

Check out the chain cross on my bike:

Thats way off. Can you move the front ring out to make a better chainline?

 

[scrambler]

Should definitely be able to offset the front chainring out.
Most chainring are asymmetrical, so you can make them extend in or out. You can also mount them on the inside or the outside of the spider.
And if mounting them facing out on the outside is not enough, you can use spacers

 

[kwseattle]

Should definitely be able to offset the front chainring out.
Most chainring are asymmetrical, so you can make them extend in or out. You can also mount them on the inside or the outside of the spider.
And if mounting them facing out on the outside is not enough, you can use spacers

Yeah I'm going to be looking for spacers to see if I can eliminate or reduce this issue. I'll probably wrap some vinyl over the chainstay to protect it for now.

 

[loamoaf]

Holy crap @kwseattle that chain on the CF is exactly what terrifies me about the tiny tiny clearance I have on my frame on the 50T chainring I have. This is what mine looks like with the rear suspension fully extended (paracord instead of a chain since my new groupset is on the way and this is my backup M620, but you get the idea...) - I've got a whopping 40mm where it crosses the stay! Note the frame is intended for a 184x44/185x45mm shock, but I'm running a 190x50 with a single offset bushing with a 2mm offset, so it's extending the suspension are just a teeny tiny bit more than it would stock, meaning I have less clearance than I normally would. This is on the 11T cog of the 8spd I'm switching out

Butyl tape (think like dynamat) will do wonders to protect carbon stays from chainslap but you probably need something with backing to cover the butyl or it'll collect lots of dirt. I think there's some rubber foam tapes kind of like mouse pad material that are nicer but I've not reached that point yet

@Deacon Blues an 8/9/10 spd cassette is only 1.85mm narrower than an 11-spd, I suspect @Cuz Vinny had to change shifters to accommodate the change in cassette speeds but correct me if I'm wrong Vinny! You should be able to correct the chainline by offsetting the chainring to the outside of the spider - same on KW's Hydra. These bikes should totally be fine with an 11/12spd but the chainring should be more lined up with the middle (#6) cog. It looks like it's time for team WW to invest in a CNC mill and start machining some parts in house! Definitely a serious issue they need to be made aware of though. Warrantying the chainstay U on a rear triangle isn't that expensive, but warrantying a whole frame due to catastrophic failure can be incredibly expensive - which is to say nothing about the medical bills the rider might wind up with! This is why all these parts service guides have the death & serious injury warnings and have your inspection list for every ride.

This brings up the question though... how many other Hydra riders are out there sawing their chainstay off?

 

[J10001]

It doesn't always work, but it feels like it's cutting power when I shift unless I'm putting a lot of torque on the pedals (which is bad practice anyways when shifting).

Since we had another break in the rain today, I went out for another ~6 mile ride after setting my shock and fork sag. Suspension feels MUCH better. I'm still getting used to riding on trails and thinking about gearing, and I have not been able to test if the bike will fit in my car yet for some longer bike specific trails.

When I got home, I was taking a look at the bike a little closer in the outdoor light and noticed the chain has been rubbing up against the chainstay and has worn through the paint and started eating into the carbon fiber as pictured below. I've only ridden the bike for about 12 miles. Not good. @pushkar

View attachment 106455

@Cuz Vinny I think it may have been you who said you were working on a resolution for this, a spacer for the chainring maybe?

Another shot I got from out in the woods today:

View attachment 106454

I have the same issue on my Hydra with a Kindernay. I thought it might be due to the small diameter cog on the rear but see that it happens with a full derailleur system as well. I put some 3m vinyl protection tape on the spot but that's not a long-term solution. Aesthetics aside, over time I can see the chain slicing into carbon fiber frame at a stress point which isn't good.

It is a frustrating issue that seems to be a problem with the clearance on the frames.