Hydra has landed!

[Csubi]

So... you just gonna fucking scream and yell anytime I post something? Yes.. I am am fucking Jelly! So get over it. I can't wait to get my bike. I can't wait to ride it ....

I'll fucking scuff the s*it out it riding the trails. I'll chip the paint loading it on my bike rack.

I'll bend s*it falling.

So again, get over it.

A lot of good kids died over seas for your right to buy from whomever you fucking want to buy from.

If you're Father Christmas.... I fell sorry for my children.

 

[Haystacks]

Not to mention the chips, scratches and all the detritus in the clearcoat. Who is painting these now, stevie fucking wonder?

So... you just gonna fucking scream and yell anytime I post something? Yes.. I am am fucking Jelly! So get over it. I can't wait to get my bike. I can't wait to ride it ....

I'll fucking scuff the s*it out it riding the trails. I'll chip the paint loading it on my bike rack.

I'll bend s*it falling.

So again, get over it.

A lot of good kids died over seas for your right to buy from whomever you fucking want to buy from.

If you're Father Christmas.... I fell sorry for my children.

This is suposed to be a NEW, premium ebike, do what the f*ck you want with your bike but STRAIGHT OUTTA THE FUCKING BOX it should look NEW.

I also feel sorry for your kids cos you blatantly don't give a s*it about anything.

 

[Csubi]

Jelly²

 

[Deacon Blues]

I thought Cerakote couldn't be clear coated.

 

[kwseattle]

I do admit the paint quality is less than stellar and for the price I paid for this bike I would've liked a cleaner finish. Again, I think I'd rather have the bike now than wait another 3 months. It's going to acquire scratches, scuffs, and marks because of rocks flinging up from those knobby tires and drops/falls. I'll take my random orbital polisher to it with some automotive grade finishing polishes to see if I can clean up the scuffs.

I thought Cerakote couldn't be clear coated.

It looks like Cerakote actually has their own line of clear coats... not sure if that's what was used here. I never specified clear coat when I ordered it - so that was a surprise that's for sure.

 

[loamoaf]

KW, if you're having issues in some of the gears at one end of the cassette but not others look into something like a Woolftooth Wolfcage or Garbaruk derailleur cage. My assumption is that WW can currently only get XT M8000 instead of the M8130 - M8000 is designed for 46T max cog whereas the new M8130 is their wide-range 11-speed that's made for something like 10-52. People run larger 50T cogs with the M8000 but the way it has to be adjusted for clearance on the tallest cog, the pulley is too far off the smaller cogs or too close to the largest - all the B-screw adjustment in the world can't fix it. The Wolfcage or Garbaruk fix this by repositioning one of the pulleys on the derailleur so you can get close enough to the small cogs but still have proper clearance over the tall one. I believe the Wolftooth version is the most affordable, OneUp has one as well called Shark Cage, there are other brands but all much more expensive - listed options are $45~65 I think - cheaper than replacing the cassette and you keep the full range. The Shimano M1830 stuff is impossible to find before like a March 2022 ship date - at least from what I whilst hunting- so it makes sense WW is going to the 11-46T cassettes.

For maxing your range try running in as low a gear possible (pedaling at as high a cadence comfortable) since electric motors are going to be more efficient when they're spinning faster (also less drivetrain wear!)

It'd be badass if Archon X1 had a UART connection for the battery as the BMS's I have have the BT module for phone app or a direct UART connection that could theoretically display all that info on a compatible display with a capable controller. Pipe dreams aside, I'm happy for you and excited for my X1 to ship which should definitely be soon, right Pushkar?

 

[TDA78]

@loamoaf, I believe you are correct. My derailleur looks like the MT8000 and no adjustment will eliminate the chain skipping the 11, 13 & 15T sprockets at high speed.

Only the Garbaruk is in stock, but I'm not a fan of aluminum for a part that gets bent easily. I'll give up my 51T sprocket, adjust the B screw and report back. It was only useful with the motor off anyway. I've already given up on the 11T as the teeth are deforming.

 

[kwseattle]

KW, if you're having issues in some of the gears at one end of the cassette but not others look into something like a Woolftooth Wolfcage or Garbaruk derailleur cage. My assumption is that WW can currently only get XT M8000 instead of the M8130 - M8000 is designed for 46T max cog whereas the new M8130 is their wide-range 11-speed that's made for something like 10-52. People run larger 50T cogs with the M8000 but the way it has to be adjusted for clearance on the tallest cog, the pulley is too far off the smaller cogs or too close to the largest - all the B-screw adjustment in the world can't fix it. The Wolfcage or Garbaruk fix this by repositioning one of the pulleys on the derailleur so you can get close enough to the small cogs but still have proper clearance over the tall one. I believe the Wolftooth version is the most affordable, OneUp has one as well called Shark Cage, there are other brands but all much more expensive - listed options are $45~65 I think - cheaper than replacing the cassette and you keep the full range. The Shimano M1830 stuff is impossible to find before like a March 2022 ship date - at least from what I whilst hunting- so it makes sense WW is going to the 11-46T cassettes.

For maxing your range try running in as low a gear possible (pedaling at as high a cadence comfortable) since electric motors are going to be more efficient when they're spinning faster (also less drivetrain wear!)

It'd be badass if Archon X1 had a UART connection for the battery as the BMS's I have have the BT module for phone app or a direct UART connection that could theoretically display all that info on a compatible display with a capable controller. Pipe dreams aside, I'm happy for you and excited for my X1 to ship which should definitely be soon, right Pushkar?

Thanks for the tips! How can I identify the cassette and derailleur that are currently mounted on my bike? Most of the options appear to be out of stock but I want to make sure that I order the correct cage.

Edit: I for sure have the Shimano XT RD-M8000.

 

[Jon A]

When you guys have these chain skipping issues, how much power are you using?

 

[kwseattle]

When you guys have these chain skipping issues, how much power are you using?

I have not ridden it enough to tell if it was an issue in low assist levels as well but I noticed it the most with high levels of PAS.

Like @TDA78 mentioned only the Garbaruk appears to be in stock. I might pick one up. Someone in Seattle has a couple for sale on Ebay so it would ship locally instead of from Poland.

 

[TDA78]

I readjusted the B-screw with the 51T sprocket out of the equation. I could no longer make the 15T sprocket skip. The 13T sprocket still skipped.

This is, of course, with the most punishing conditions possible. Accelerating in a high gear from 10 to 30 mph, 2300 watts plus my input.

I think I'm done abusing the drivetrain. Hopefully I'll get a verified X1 Tool account soon and detune my motor.

 

[loamoaf]

TDA, for what it's worth last night while the power went out I was reading up on how the new 7/8/9100 12-speed derailleurs do indeed work with the old 7/8/9000 11-speed shifters on an 11-speed cassette, so if you gnarl up your current derailleur you can replace it with one of the newer ones - if you can find one! I found this out after I ordered the M8000 derailleur & M9000 shifter... the impression I was given from the Shimano website was the Dynasis 11-speed (old x000 series) use different pull ratios from the new 8130 (the rest of the x100's are 12-speed) but apparently they are compatible. The first run of x100 shifters had a switch on the bottom to to limit them to 11-speed but I guess they were gutting too many of their own sales lol. But the point you make about detuning the motor is exactly why I ordered mine at 750W with the programming module. I'll probably bump it to 1000W nominal 1500W peak but I'm going to see how the stock 750W plays with the X1 smoothness.

KW google 'Shimano M8000 RD' and 'M8100 RD' - my assumption is it's the 8000 since the XT logo is extruded and on a different part than the M8100 - they're also usually stamped with the model number somewhere but usually that's tough to find once it's mounted. Looks like WW is using Sunrace CSMS8 cassettes which are their all-steel ones. They also have CSMX8 which has an alloy tallest cog & CSMX80 which the two tallest cogs are alloy. It makes sense that WW would go with the all steel verson but I had no idea if the steels used between the models are different at all. I ordered a Shimano CS-5100-11 cassette in 11-51 since it's not much more expensive than the CSMS8 for what's in stock domestically - but you can find the CSMS8 for maybe as low as $70 on AE if you're willing to wait for shipping. I'm really interested in Shimano's LinkGlide cassette CS-LG600-11 which is what goes with the M8130 new 11 speed group - made with a little thicker/different tooth profile - but again allow on any of the gears is iffy for higher torque like the X1.

I've got a 104x4 BCD Christini alloy spider so I can go down to 30T on the front chainring, I've got a couple cheapy alloy chainrings (40T + 50T) to test out and a stainless steel Wolftooth 30T on the way, using SRAM PC-X1 chains since they're cheap and the guys on another emtb forum get great mileage out of them. My bike is going to be a little more of a trail toy than something for around town so I don't think I'll need too large of a chainring up front - I'll let gravity take me fast downhill lol

The idea with staying in as low of a gearing as possible and spinning your legs/motor faster is that you can get the same amount of power down on the ground without as much force on the chain/cogs/chainring, and thus wear. Higher motor/chainring rpm at the same speed requires far less torque for the same amount of power - and torque is what's hard on the drive train.

Also dang... I wish I saw the Garbaruk locally before I ordered... Usually I like to order EU goods from European retailers though since the (now 21%, used to be 20, then 19) VAT we don't pay + their lower RRP way more than makes up for any shipping cost... MT7 set for under $240 & the MDR-P rotors for $25 a pop, brake pad sets for $16, Schwalbe tires for twenty-seven-freaking-dollars a piece lmao. Either way I grabbed the cage + 11/16T pulleys shipped for not too much, not directly through Garbaruk though as the pulleys had a lead time. I actually ordered my Wolftooth chainring for $77 instead of $100 from an EU retailer which is kind of goofy - major non-EU brands/components they don't ship outside of the EU though (Shimano, SRAM) but I actually managed to snag my DVO Topaz from Europe as well for a little over $420 shipped on sale!

 

[Cuz Vinny]

TDA, for what it's worth last night while the power went out I was reading up on how the new 7/8/9100 12-speed derailleurs do indeed work with the old 7/8/9000 11-speed shifters on an 11-speed cassette, so if you gnarl up your current derailleur you can replace it with one of the newer ones - if you can find one! I found this out after I ordered the M8000 derailleur & M9000 shifter... the impression I was given from the Shimano website was the Dynasis 11-speed (old x000 series) use different pull ratios from the new 8130 (the rest of the x100's are 12-speed) but apparently they are compatible. The first run of x100 shifters had a switch on the bottom to to limit them to 11-speed but I guess they were gutting too many of their own sales lol. But the point you make about detuning the motor is exactly why I ordered mine at 750W with the programming module. I'll probably bump it to 1000W nominal 1500W peak but I'm going to see how the stock 750W plays with the X1 smoothness.

KW google 'Shimano M8000 RD' and 'M8100 RD' - my assumption is it's the 8000 since the XT logo is extruded and on a different part than the M8100 - they're also usually stamped with the model number somewhere but usually that's tough to find once it's mounted. Looks like WW is using Sunrace CSMS8 cassettes which are their all-steel ones. They also have CSMX8 which has an alloy tallest cog & CSMX80 which the two tallest cogs are alloy. It makes sense that WW would go with the all steel verson but I had no idea if the steels used between the models are different at all. I ordered a Shimano CS-5100-11 cassette in 11-51 since it's not much more expensive than the CSMS8 for what's in stock domestically - but you can find the CSMS8 for maybe as low as $70 on AE if you're willing to wait for shipping. I'm really interested in Shimano's LinkGlide cassette CS-LG600-11 which is what goes with the M8130 new 11 speed group - made with a little thicker/different tooth profile - but again allow on any of the gears is iffy for higher torque like the X1.

I've got a 104x4 BCD Christini alloy spider so I can go down to 30T on the front chainring, I've got a couple cheapy alloy chainrings (40T + 50T) to test out and a stainless steel Wolftooth 30T on the way, using SRAM PC-X1 chains since they're cheap and the guys on another emtb forum get great mileage out of them. My bike is going to be a little more of a trail toy than something for around town so I don't think I'll need too large of a chainring up front - I'll let gravity take me fast downhill lol

The idea with staying in as low of a gearing as possible and spinning your legs/motor faster is that you can get the same amount of power down on the ground without as much force on the chain/cogs/chainring, and thus wear. Higher motor/chainring rpm at the same speed requires far less torque for the same amount of power - and torque is what's hard on the drive train.

Also dang... I wish I saw the Garbaruk locally before I ordered... Usually I like to order EU goods from European retailers though since the (now 21%, used to be 20, then 19) VAT we don't pay + their lower RRP way more than makes up for any shipping cost... MT7 set for under $240 & the MDR-P rotors for $25 a pop, brake pad sets for $16, Schwalbe tires for twenty-seven-freaking-dollars a piece lmao. Either way I grabbed the cage + 11/16T pulleys shipped for not too much, not directly through Garbaruk though as the pulleys had a lead time. I actually ordered my Wolftooth chainring for $77 instead of $100 from an EU retailer which is kind of goofy - major non-EU brands/components they don't ship outside of the EU though (Shimano, SRAM) but I actually managed to snag my DVO Topaz from Europe as well for a little over $420 shipped on sale!

Do you have a fat bike or 27.5 wheels? I have the Christini adapter on both bikes and a smaller chain ring will hit the chainstay.

 

[kwseattle]

TDA, for what it's worth last night while the power went out I was reading up on how the new 7/8/9100 12-speed derailleurs do indeed work with the old 7/8/9000 11-speed shifters on an 11-speed cassette, so if you gnarl up your current derailleur you can replace it with one of the newer ones - if you can find one! I found this out after I ordered the M8000 derailleur & M9000 shifter... the impression I was given from the Shimano website was the Dynasis 11-speed (old x000 series) use different pull ratios from the new 8130 (the rest of the x100's are 12-speed) but apparently they are compatible. The first run of x100 shifters had a switch on the bottom to to limit them to 11-speed but I guess they were gutting too many of their own sales lol. But the point you make about detuning the motor is exactly why I ordered mine at 750W with the programming module. I'll probably bump it to 1000W nominal 1500W peak but I'm going to see how the stock 750W plays with the X1 smoothness.

KW google 'Shimano M8000 RD' and 'M8100 RD' - my assumption is it's the 8000 since the XT logo is extruded and on a different part than the M8100 - they're also usually stamped with the model number somewhere but usually that's tough to find once it's mounted. Looks like WW is using Sunrace CSMS8 cassettes which are their all-steel ones. They also have CSMX8 which has an alloy tallest cog & CSMX80 which the two tallest cogs are alloy. It makes sense that WW would go with the all steel verson but I had no idea if the steels used between the models are different at all. I ordered a Shimano CS-5100-11 cassette in 11-51 since it's not much more expensive than the CSMS8 for what's in stock domestically - but you can find the CSMS8 for maybe as low as $70 on AE if you're willing to wait for shipping. I'm really interested in Shimano's LinkGlide cassette CS-LG600-11 which is what goes with the M8130 new 11 speed group - made with a little thicker/different tooth profile - but again allow on any of the gears is iffy for higher torque like the X1.

I've got a 104x4 BCD Christini alloy spider so I can go down to 30T on the front chainring, I've got a couple cheapy alloy chainrings (40T + 50T) to test out and a stainless steel Wolftooth 30T on the way, using SRAM PC-X1 chains since they're cheap and the guys on another emtb forum get great mileage out of them. My bike is going to be a little more of a trail toy than something for around town so I don't think I'll need too large of a chainring up front - I'll let gravity take me fast downhill lol

The idea with staying in as low of a gearing as possible and spinning your legs/motor faster is that you can get the same amount of power down on the ground without as much force on the chain/cogs/chainring, and thus wear. Higher motor/chainring rpm at the same speed requires far less torque for the same amount of power - and torque is what's hard on the drive train.

Also dang... I wish I saw the Garbaruk locally before I ordered... Usually I like to order EU goods from European retailers though since the (now 21%, used to be 20, then 19) VAT we don't pay + their lower RRP way more than makes up for any shipping cost... MT7 set for under $240 & the MDR-P rotors for $25 a pop, brake pad sets for $16, Schwalbe tires for twenty-seven-freaking-dollars a piece lmao. Either way I grabbed the cage + 11/16T pulleys shipped for not too much, not directly through Garbaruk though as the pulleys had a lead time. I actually ordered my Wolftooth chainring for $77 instead of $100 from an EU retailer which is kind of goofy - major non-EU brands/components they don't ship outside of the EU though (Shimano, SRAM) but I actually managed to snag my DVO Topaz from Europe as well for a little over $420 shipped on sale!

I double checked, it's the M8000. I ordered the derailleur cage from the seller on Ebay and it already shipped! Since it's shipping from Seattle to Seattle I'll probably get it in the next couple days. I'll mount it when I get the chance and test when I get a clearing in the weather.

Thanks for providing some insight - I'm pretty inexperienced when it comes to bike components since the bike I've been casually riding for a few years is like a 30 year old Schwinn road bike lol.

Running to a bike shop in a bit so I can grab a shock pump for setting up the sag on my suspension - my front fork is way too stiff currently.

 

[Cuz Vinny]

Christini 104 BCD Adapter and RaceFace Narrow Wide Chainring

Getting installed on my Hydra today. The adapter is from Christini AWD Bikes and allows the use of 104BCD chainrings on the Ultra motor. I have a RaceFace 36T Narrow Wide ring that I’ll be using instead of the stock setup. The Christini and RaceFace ring is a lot lighter vs what came on the bike...

electricbikereview.com

 

[TDA78]

I can cross reference electronic components with a dozen parameters but working out compatibility within a single line of bike components drives me crazy. I'll probably just go with a Box Components Prime 9 ebike drivetrain package when the time comes.

I ordered my Hydra with 1000W. I assume it came with 2300W. Tough to tell when the display meter tops out at 1500W. I'll be tuning to 1500W continuous. That seems to be a reasonable limit for the battery and drivetrain.

 

[loamoaf]

Vinny I have a Dengfu E06, 29+ late spring/summer set with a pair of 26" 90mm Nexties shipping out this week to build up a fat set for the snow, using the Christini fatbike spider. The 50T chainring definitely needs some spacers to offset it out by at least 5mm as it just barely clears the chainstay & I don't like tight clearances, but the 40T is fine. Or do you mean the chain on the chainstay? Checking the fit, I should have about 15mm between chain & chainstay when the suspension is fully extended (more when compressed) with the 30T, I have at least 20mm with the 40T. I'm going to keep the clutch on my derailleur a little tight but I'll see if I wind up needing a chain guide.

Before Kindernay broke my heart & said no more fat hubs, I wanted to design & print a belt tensioner the fits using the M620 mounting bolts and takes up slack from the bottom of the chainring, ala Nicolai. Gates is super touchy with tension but there are a couple other belt drives that are a little more forgiving in their chainline/tension demands that makes them easier for full suspension. If WW wants to take a crack at long travel full-suspenion + belt drive then it might be easier for them to develop something using a V-belt (I forget the other guys out there, but there are a couple).

KW definitley let us know how the Garbaruk works. I think through the right chainring + cassette combo, and programming the different assist levels/limits on the X1 you should be able to avoid skipping, get good range, and not maul your cassette - through mindful shifting of course too. I saw another user do something cool with a 3D-printed 'e-clutch' that was essentially a thumb-operated ebrake switch to cut motor power while shifting, since shifting is definitely what causes the most wear. I'm super interested in this and since I want to keep the HC levers on my MT7 brakes I'm going to try to rig up an ebrake + eclutch system using Grin Tripwires - design the switch so it bolts on right above the dropper lever, or is a trigger behind my left brake lever.

 

[kwseattle]

Vinny I have a Dengfu E06, 29+ late spring/summer set with a pair of 26" 90mm Nexties shipping out this week to build up a fat set for the snow, using the Christini fatbike spider. The 50T chainring definitely needs some spacers to offset it out by at least 5mm as it just barely clears the chainstay & I don't like tight clearances, but the 40T is fine. Or do you mean the chain on the chainstay? Checking the fit, I should have about 15mm between chain & chainstay when the suspension is fully extended (more when compressed) with the 30T, I have at least 20mm with the 40T. I'm going to keep the clutch on my derailleur a little tight but I'll see if I wind up needing a chain guide.

Before Kindernay broke my heart & said no more fat hubs, I wanted to design & print a belt tensioner the fits using the M620 mounting bolts and takes up slack from the bottom of the chainring, ala Nicolai. Gates is super touchy with tension but there are a couple other belt drives that are a little more forgiving in their chainline/tension demands that makes them easier for full suspension. If WW wants to take a crack at long travel full-suspenion + belt drive then it might be easier for them to develop something using a V-belt (I forget the other guys out there, but there are a couple).
View attachment 106350

KW definitley let us know how the Garbaruk works. I think through the right chainring + cassette combo, and programming the different assist levels/limits on the X1 you should be able to avoid skipping, get good range, and not maul your cassette - through mindful shifting of course too. I saw another user do something cool with a 3D-printed 'e-clutch' that was essentially a thumb-operated ebrake switch to cut motor power while shifting, since shifting is definitely what causes the most wear. I'm super interested in this and since I want to keep the HC levers on my MT7 brakes I'm going to try to rig up an ebrake + eclutch system using Grin Tripwires - design the switch so it bolts on right above the dropper lever, or is a trigger behind my left brake lever.
View attachment 106351

Yeah I'll definitely provide an update!

IIRC these bikes have shift sensors which cut motor power when shifting - it seemed like it was doing that properly when I was riding yesterday.

 

[Lsthrz]

Great info @loamoaf ! Yes, I had the high gear slipping issue right off the bat with the original medium bike. It was a very consistent and frustrating problem when pushing higher speeds - and not just when pedaling. I had a couple of LBSes take a look but it's only evident at higher speeds which you don't see on a bike stand. It doesn't seem quite as consistent with the large frame bike, but it happens as well. I was going to give up on the cassette all-together based on my frustration with this but it looks like a Garbaruk is in my future as well. I also thought someone here went to a smaller Wolf Tooth chainring and saw a lot of improvement (if it was the same problem).

 

[Deacon Blues]

Look like my UC Pro has the same derailleur and cassette has what's shipped on the Hydras, since it's the same I suspect I'll end up with the same chain skipping problems.
Honestly, I can't understand how a new bike can be sent out to customers knowing that the bike won't shift properly. I paid $6400 for this bike and for that kinda money I expect it to work properly from the get-go.
Having to buy aftermarket parts to get it to work properly is ridiculous.

I should have my UC Pro ready for the road tomorrow. Did you guys having shifting/skipping problem right away?
I do have a new, spare Shimano 11 speed cassette (11-42) that I bought a few months ago for my Cannondale e-gravel bike (which will need a new cassette in the near future). It will really be a pisser if I have to swap cassettes to get the bike to shift properly.
It was the only Shimano 11-42 cassette I could find and I paid dearly for it ($200 Canadian).