tomjasz
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- Minnesnowta
Finally sorted the shop. Chalo at East side pedal pushers!
Help finding balanced commuter / errand bike < ~$2k
- Thread starter ianschum
- Start date
PatriciaK
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- Pacific Northwest and Piedmont Triad
Expand the budget a bit and get the Trek Verve+
You'll thank us later.
Otherwise the Aventon Pace models would be another option depending on what your local bike shop has.
Lots of specialty shops popping up.
If you're going to spring $2400-ish for the Verve+, you might as well look at the Giant La Free E+1... Same price, more power, and mid drive with belt so you don't have the chain issues...
indianajo
Well-Known Member
I can't imagine "clipping in" in traffic. On a road bike on a dedicated track or bike path, maybe that is terribly efficient. You can pull up on the pedals as well as push down. On the street in a city where you are supposed to stop and put your feet down every block or two, sounds very cumbersome. Besides the OP said he didn't want to sweat before arriving at work, and using the pull up muscles in addition to the push down muscles just increases the calories burned. I can ride 30 miles without clipping in, and without electricity too. I lost 60 lb doing that, so the calories are going somewhere without using the pull up muscles.
Whereas agree on the mopeds, I can pedal my bike 30 miles against the slip-clutch if the *****y battery I bought at first fails. Did so twice, no tow truck required. Those tiny pedals located behind the seat on the mopeds are hilarious.
As for miniscule web sold brands, be sure there is some history before purchase. Juiced has gotten some bad ink here for intermittant contacts to the battery, which is the death of any e-bike. Lack of solution for the guy that got burned. Is there enough history on these other brands? Trek, Giant, Pedego, Magnum, Juiced, yes there is a lot of product out there to make a judgement. Thumbs down on Juiced. These push to make contacts, I'm suspicious of the whole category of pop-in batteries. Push down contacts don't work on my TV remote, I'm forever having to remove the battery & reinstall to make it work. The ebikes use that principal at 26 amps?
ianschum
Member
Thanks! I'll check him out.
tomjasz
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- Minnesnowta
Please follow up and send me a note regarding how it went? I like to keep my referrals fresh, current, and accurate!
Greg Johnson
Member
That is a great bike and one I took a test ride on. It was between the Giant and Trek.
Browneye
Well-Known Member
I forgot about the Verve light weight - another reason to like it. I’ve always been partial to Trek bikes - nice product!
I like the yamaha drive cuz it’s a little peppier and just as silent - both are very quiet.
We did a couple 20-mile trips this weekend. Both bikes did great, riding is nearly effortless. My new Giant wasn’t shifting worth a darn- up-shifts would lag and then when I would pedal it would clunk into gear. Beyond annoying. And Deore shifter! I thought i was going to have to drop it at the dealer.
Checked it out tonight - rear Derailleur adjusted way too far below the cluster - moved it up with the adjust screw and centered the chain on the sprocket with the cable adjuster. Now it shifts like butter.
Can you tune a bike or do you need a tech guy?
I like the yamaha drive cuz it’s a little peppier and just as silent - both are very quiet.
We did a couple 20-mile trips this weekend. Both bikes did great, riding is nearly effortless. My new Giant wasn’t shifting worth a darn- up-shifts would lag and then when I would pedal it would clunk into gear. Beyond annoying. And Deore shifter! I thought i was going to have to drop it at the dealer.
Checked it out tonight - rear Derailleur adjusted way too far below the cluster - moved it up with the adjust screw and centered the chain on the sprocket with the cable adjuster. Now it shifts like butter.
Can you tune a bike or do you need a tech guy?
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Browneye
Well-Known Member
BTW, the chief advantage for a hub drive is that you dont have to pedal - or just turn the crank and the hub takes over - full power.
I knew it would be a perfect setup for the wife.
My fancy mid-drive has to be pedaled. And you have to shift it! Nearly twice the price!
I knew it would be a perfect setup for the wife.
My fancy mid-drive has to be pedaled. And you have to shift it! Nearly twice the price!
tomjasz
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- Minnesnowta
Interesting. My mids havevthrottles and operate exactly like a hub drive. A BBSHD can be ridden without ever shifting on flat roads....BTW, the chief advantage for a hub drive is that you dont have to pedal - or just turn the crank and the hub takes over - full power.
I knew it would be a perfect setup for the wife.
My fancy mid-drive has to be pedaled. And you have to shift it! Nearly twice the price!
ianschum
Member
Got some test rides in at my local Bicycle Sport Shop yesterday -- my first time sitting on any ebike, and also my first experience (even window) shopping at a serious bike shop.
The ebikes they had available for test rides were a Specialized Como 4.0, a Verve+ 2 Lowstep, and a GoCycle GS. I took a round on all three just to get a sense of fit, feel, differences, similarities, etc.
Some casual observations:
Mostly I'm just using this post to process through the experience and see if anybody can relate, and/or would care to contradict. At this point I'm still largely guessing what my future usage of an ebike might be like. Happy to get further comment on any of this.
As for getting closer to a buying decision ... I'm pretty sure I'm going to reach out to MOD here in Austin and set up a consultation. They seem really service-oriented as a company and very passionate about supporting their customers. At very least I'll get to test ride their Berlin which will be a really useful data point.
Other than checking in with other local spots for test-rides, I am probably just biding time until Black Friday / Cyber Week sales.
The ebikes they had available for test rides were a Specialized Como 4.0, a Verve+ 2 Lowstep, and a GoCycle GS. I took a round on all three just to get a sense of fit, feel, differences, similarities, etc.
Some casual observations:
- Big name mid drives + torque sensing -- feels like magic!
The Trek and Specialized both felt really powerful, and I definitely got a sense of what people mean about torque-sensing mid-drives (or maybe just torque-sensing?) creating a feeling of smooth ramping added power. I start pedaling, the pedaling is easy, and suddenly I'm going 20mph. Pretty fun feeling. I get why people like these
- Contrast with hub drive(?)
The PAS on the GoCycle seemed less smooth -- I'd pedal for a half turn or so, get a boost, and it wouldn't seem to last long; but there was a pretty binary feeling between [boost / no boost]. I wonder if this is a decent exemplar for the difference between a hub drive and mid drive? The bike tech I was working with readily acknowledged that he "wasn't the electric guy" in the shop, so it's quite possible the bike wasn't in the right mode to represent "typical" assist levels for commuting. Granted, there's a lot of noise in this signal as well -- the GoCycle is a mini, folder, and its hub drive is on the front mounted. Any bike I end up will probably not be a folder, will probably have a rear wheel motor (if not a mid drive), and most likely have 26" or larger wheels.
- Plush SUV vs. nimble hatchback
As far as fit and feel comparisons to my little 26" MTB-frame commuter ... the Como and Verve both felt like stepping into much larger vehicles, like going from a little familiar hatchback to a large comfortable SUV. I'm not sure I loved that so much. This is where I just may not be imagining the future correctly -- I like the semi-athletic feel of being on my existing bike, but if my whole point is to start replacing car trips with an ebike, then maybe that ebike should feel a little more car-like than my current bike. The Como and Verve both felt a lot more car-like than the GoCycle. And I'm using the GoCycle as a stand-in for any lighter-weight ebike I might consider, such as the Propella, maybe the M-Class, etc. Curious for any thoughts or shared experiences on this point.
- First experience with small tires -- fine!
The GoCycle was also my first time riding something with <26" wheels, and I actually found it ... fine! Cruising through a large empty parking lot at ~20mph, it felt plenty fast and plenty stable, or stable enough for my needs. I suppose I'm used to avoiding cracks and potholes since my existing bike has no suspension -- so I imagine I could happily do the same with an ebike. This raises my hopes for something like the M Class (or comparable) if I don't end up going with a higher-end name-brand buy from an LBS.
Mostly I'm just using this post to process through the experience and see if anybody can relate, and/or would care to contradict. At this point I'm still largely guessing what my future usage of an ebike might be like. Happy to get further comment on any of this.
As for getting closer to a buying decision ... I'm pretty sure I'm going to reach out to MOD here in Austin and set up a consultation. They seem really service-oriented as a company and very passionate about supporting their customers. At very least I'll get to test ride their Berlin which will be a really useful data point.
Other than checking in with other local spots for test-rides, I am probably just biding time until Black Friday / Cyber Week sales.
Greg Johnson
Member
Got some test rides in at my local Bicycle Sport Shop yesterday -- my first time sitting on any ebike, and also my first experience (even window) shopping at a serious bike shop.
The ebikes they had available for test rides were a Specialized Como 4.0, a Verve+ 2 Lowstep, and a GoCycle GS. I took a round on all three just to get a sense of fit, feel, differences, similarities, etc.
Some casual observations:
- Big name mid drives + torque sensing -- feels like magic!
The Trek and Specialized both felt really powerful, and I definitely got a sense of what people mean about torque-sensing mid-drives (or maybe just torque-sensing?) creating a feeling of smooth ramping added power. I start pedaling, the pedaling is easy, and suddenly I'm going 20mph. Pretty fun feeling. I get why people like these
- Contrast with hub drive(?)
The PAS on the GoCycle seemed less smooth -- I'd pedal for a half turn or so, get a boost, and it wouldn't seem to last long; but there was a pretty binary feeling between [boost / no boost]. I wonder if this is a decent exemplar for the difference between a hub drive and mid drive? The bike tech I was working with readily acknowledged that he "wasn't the electric guy" in the shop, so it's quite possible the bike wasn't in the right mode to represent "typical" assist levels for commuting. Granted, there's a lot of noise in this signal as well -- the GoCycle is a mini, folder, and its hub drive is on the front mounted. Any bike I end up will probably not be a folder, will probably have a rear wheel motor (if not a mid drive), and most likely have 26" or larger wheels.
- Plush SUV vs. nimble hatchback
As far as fit and feel comparisons to my little 26" MTB-frame commuter ... the Como and Verve both felt like stepping into much larger vehicles, like going from a little familiar hatchback to a large comfortable SUV. I'm not sure I loved that so much. This is where I just may not be imagining the future correctly -- I like the semi-athletic feel of being on my existing bike, but if my whole point is to start replacing car trips with an ebike, then maybe that ebike should feel a little more car-like than my current bike. The Como and Verve both felt a lot more car-like than the GoCycle. And I'm using the GoCycle as a stand-in for any lighter-weight ebike I might consider, such as the Propella, maybe the M-Class, etc. Curious for any thoughts or shared experiences on this point.
- First experience with small tires -- fine!
The GoCycle was also my first time riding something with <26" wheels, and I actually found it ... fine! Cruising through a large empty parking lot at ~20mph, it felt plenty fast and plenty stable, or stable enough for my needs. I suppose I'm used to avoiding cracks and potholes since my existing bike has no suspension -- so I imagine I could happily do the same with an ebike. This raises my hopes for something like the M Class (or comparable) if I don't end up going with a higher-end name-brand buy from an LBS.
Mostly I'm just using this post to process through the experience and see if anybody can relate, and/or would care to contradict. At this point I'm still largely guessing what my future usage of an ebike might be like. Happy to get further comment on any of this.
As for getting closer to a buying decision ... I'm pretty sure I'm going to reach out to MOD here in Austin and set up a consultation. They seem really service-oriented as a company and very passionate about supporting their customers. At very least I'll get to test ride their Berlin which will be a really useful data point.
Other than checking in with other local spots for test-rides, I am probably just biding time until Black Friday / Cyber Week sales.
I understand the allure of hub drives, just not for me. Did not feel natural and intuitive and didn’t feel as “one”with the bike. Guess that is why I still like driving manual transmission cars. I also ride a motorcycle so stepping on my Verve feels like a sports car. I test ride a smaller folder and it seemed fine at slower speeds, up to about 15mph, but faster did not feel stable (smaller tires). Where I live has many hills and I have coasted down them up to 40mph and felt very stable and in control.
My Verve feels athletic to me because it is lighter weight than most and not overpowering. It makes me feel like a stronger biker. After a few months at times I don’t use any PAS at all on flat terrain and can maintain 12-15 mph. To cruise steadily near 20mph I will use PAS 1.
Cracks and potholes at times are unavoidable, like right now with leaves covering the ground, and while jarring at times, the larger Bontrager tires absorb nicely. With mirrors on both sides and a rear rack, I find myself leaving the car parked more often.
Had my first flat yesterday in the rear. Very thankful for the mid drive as repairing was easy.
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ianschum
Member
@Greg Johnson this is helpful data! Thanks.
I'm a little confused ... you said not for me when it comes to mid drives ... but you have a Verve with a mid drive, and you give it some props for the easy tire-change that you get as a result. What am I missing here? You do or don't like mid drives?
It's probably good for you to point out that the Verve (and the other members of its weight class) are a good deal lighter than some of the most-popular affordable ebikes like the RadRunner -- or just, most things from Rad and Juiced and so on. It's all relative, huh?
I'm a little confused ... you said not for me when it comes to mid drives ... but you have a Verve with a mid drive, and you give it some props for the easy tire-change that you get as a result. What am I missing here? You do or don't like mid drives?
It's probably good for you to point out that the Verve (and the other members of its weight class) are a good deal lighter than some of the most-popular affordable ebikes like the RadRunner -- or just, most things from Rad and Juiced and so on. It's all relative, huh?
Greg Johnson
Member
@Greg Johnson this is helpful data! Thanks.
I'm a little confused ... you said not for me when it comes to mid drives ... but you have a Verve with a mid drive, and you give it some props for the easy tire-change that you get as a result. What am I missing here? You do or don't like mid drives?
It's probably good for you to point out that the Verve (and the other members of its weight class) are a good deal lighter than some of the most-popular affordable ebikes like the RadRunner -- or just, most things from Rad and Juiced and so on. It's all relative, huh?
I am so sorry my bad I did not proof read well enough and I just went back and corrected. I meant to say not for me concerning front or rear hub drives. yes the light weight I feel allows me to ride with no assist at times and usually getting 60 miles per charge. And I did test ride a RAD I am from the northwest. They have a great business model and they are highly successful and for the price you pay I think it is a fair deal but the two things that ruled it out for me was I wanted mid drive and the 20 pound difference in weight was the dealbreaker.
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stanmiller
Active Member
The PAS cadence sensor, often paired with hub motor style ebikes, does have that 'get-up-and-go' feel once you start pedaling. The amount of 'go' is linked to the PAS level setting. Once you get going the PAS will continue to smoothly accelerate to the selected assist level. My bike has 5 levels. Level 1 gets you to 7 MPH and continues in increments to level 5 (28 MPH). I use the PAS level like gears shifting up-and-down through assist levels according to the conditions.
The GoCycle was probably set to level 1.
Here's my kitted Electra Townie
Electra Townie conversion with kit from Bluenergy
After a few years of lurking around here and endless-sphere, I finally took the plunge and converted my Electra Townie to an e-bike. I’m now over 530 634 1386 2000 2530 miles in and couldn’t be happier. I had ridden this Townie and prior Trek Pure thousands of miles and along the way tuned...
electricbikereview.com
That MOD Berlin looks sweet!
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Browneye
Well-Known Member
>snip
- Big name mid drives + torque sensing -- feels like magic!
The Trek and Specialized both felt really powerful, and I definitely got a sense of what people mean about torque-sensing mid-drives (or maybe just torque-sensing?) creating a feeling of smooth ramping added power. I start pedaling, the pedaling is easy, and suddenly I'm going 20mph. Pretty fun feeling. I get why people like these
- Contrast with hub drive(?)
The PAS on the GoCycle seemed less smooth -- I'd pedal for a half turn or so, get a boost, and it wouldn't seem to last long; but there was a pretty binary feeling between [boost / no boost]. I wonder if this is a decent exemplar for the difference between a hub drive and mid drive? The bike tech I was working with readily acknowledged that he "wasn't the electric guy" in the shop, so it's quite possible the bike wasn't in the right mode to represent "typical" assist levels for commuting. Granted, there's a lot of noise in this signal as well -- the GoCycle is a mini, folder, and its hub drive is on the front mounted. Any bike I end up will probably not be a folder, will probably have a rear wheel motor (if not a mid drive), and most likely have 26" or larger wheels.
Yes. And yes. And now you see the difference between hub drive and the more sophisticated mid-drives you find in the big 3-4.
IIRC the Specialized has more output. Both brands are excellent bikes though.
The boost effect with hub drive becomes something you get used to, rely on for fast starts at lights, etc. But yeah, if you set it at full pas level it will keep going if you keep pedaling, all they way to it's maximum speed. And hence the 5 assist levels. On our Bafang unit you can limit the top speed to whatever you want - I have wife's at 20mph. If she decides she wants more we can add more in. And yes, it feels like it falls off cuz it literally reaches a set speed and then maintains that. It is definitely somewhat divorced from pedaling, only the cadence sensor says you're pedaling so go ahead and power it up to the Pas-level it's set at.
Wife's hub-drive at full assist walks away from my Giant Explore which is speed limited to about 19. The motor fades out and I'm too lazy to pedal it past that. It can be modified to go faster, with some caveats, like voided warranty, cost, and added battery consumption and drivetrain wear.
A small cargo bike may well be a good match. Check out the RadRover and mini - pretty neat bikes with that mini-bike type of feel. I think they're cool little rigs, but not what I would want for any kind of over-the-road or distance riding. Spark and Juiced have those mini's as well. I wouldn't mind having one for a RV camp bike. But right now I'm jonesing for a high performance e-mountain bike.
ianschum
Member
Oh this makes a lot of sense then. The tech who set me up on it probably didn't know how to set me up on the right PAS level. Thanks!
I'm gonna have to read more of that thread / hit you up about that kit conversion. Looks really nice!
As I've already advertised in this thread, I'm really happy with the shape and feel of my existing 90's-era Gary Fisher ... but I just don't want to have to work so hard to get across town! So that led me to give some serious consideration to the conversion route ... but then immediately I have to wonder how seriously I want to get into the ongoing business of maintaining my own converted ebike.
indianajo
Well-Known Member
PAS is notchy. Mine had minimum speed 11 mph and minimum acceleration 500 W. WAAAAY too fast. I scrapped it and went to throttle only controller. Cheaper, more reliable, no display to ***** up in the rain.
If you didn't hit a pothole with 20" wheels, you didn't try it. You can't always avoid them, sometimes they are covered up by cars or puddles.
I think no display conversions can be MORE RELIABLE than factory bikes because you can use Dorman bullett connectors and insulated .250 flag terminals. IE industrial grade connectors. A good crimp crams the wire together into a solid mass, is a forever connection. No oxide problems. Not those push in spring loaded things on the snap in batteries. Also way cheaper, my DD kit cost $189 and I'm still using the controller & throttle with the $221 geared hub motor from ebikeling. (I hated ebikeling PAS).
My motor/controller has been ZERO problem except the throttle going dead in a horrid all day rain. Problem with kit, you need a drill motor, vise, drills, safety glasses to make brackets like the torque reaction bracket. I make my torque plates, scrap steel, two 5/16" holes, connect the dots with a nicholson round & triangle files. 1.25 hours. Sometimes you have to grind out the slot in the fork for the axle, takes a 3" disk on a mandrel in the drill (sold at NAPA, welding supplies). Mounting PAS pickup takes a crank puller, not worth it IMHO since I didn't like the result.
stanmiller
Active Member
The key to a painless conversion is a suitable bike/kit pairing. I expect your Gary Fisher would require some custom tinkering. Probably not a good match. A newer Specialized Roll makes a good pairing and is nearly plug-n-play. All you need is to swap out the trigger shifters.
My Electra Townie was pretty good too. The exception - it wasn't disc brake compatible. I started out with an adapter, then later rebuilt the wheel so I could go back to using rim brakes.
Another example.
One could get this:
Amazon: Bafang 48v/500W/26"/850C color display/12AH battery
Pair with this:
Amazon.com: Mongoose Envoy Cargo Bike with 26-Inch Wheels in Grey, Medium/Large Frame, with 8-Speeds, Shimano Drivetrain, Aluminum Cargo Frame, Internal Cable Routing, Mechanical Disc Brakes, and Center Kickstand: Sports & Outdoors
Amazon.com: Mongoose Envoy Cargo Bike with 26-Inch Wheels in Grey, Medium/Large Frame, with 8-Speeds, Shimano Drivetrain, Aluminum Cargo Frame, Internal Cable Routing, Mechanical Disc Brakes, and Center Kickstand: Sports & Outdoors
www.amazon.com
Swap in these:
Amazon.com : SHIMANO SL-M360 Acera Shifter Set (3x8 Speed) : Bike Shifters And Parts : Sports & Outdoors
Amazon.com : SHIMANO SL-M360 Acera Shifter Set (3x8 Speed) : Bike Shifters And Parts : Sports & Outdoors
www.amazon.com
To get this:
$1500
That said.... That MOD Berlin is very interesting.
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ianschum
Member
Ah! This seems like a huge point for doing a conversion, thanks. I was dimly aware that some bikes' forks wouldn't be built strongly enough to handle a front-wheel conversion (esp. aluminum frames) but I hadn't seen any other caveats along these lines. Sounds like the bike should be setup for disc brakes at minimum, and ... what else?
Given the requirement of getting a new bike (new to me, at least) to pair with a conversion kit, the chances probably drop that I'll go this route. But just to get an idea -- is something like this more suitable? Or, what's the requisite criteria?
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