Helios refund

[TomD]

Zach, that's a bit much to say "done nothing but lead us along for a couple years". When did you invest? October 2019? Sure, things are going to take longer than expected for those holding out for their bike, and you could perhaps accurately portray the last 6 months as being led along, but 2 years? I have no problem if you or anyone wants to voice your opinion, just don't think it's productive to rehash some of this stuff. Had a quick call with Pushkar an hour ago and it sounded like he hopes to have founders asking for refunds to be refunded in full much sooner than initially proposed.

 

[Zachdds]

I asked to be called out and you are right. I was not in Oct 2019 but rather April 2020, so I was exaggerating by 6 months. My apologies.

In terms of the last 6 months vs 2 years I completely disagree with that. Do you not remember waiting forever to see the picture of the step through. You know the one that was in the paint shop for 4 months. How about the diamond frame that was sort of built with pictures coming on Monday. That was last winter. How about frames are shipped and be here in 2 weeks. I literally booked a hotel room to meet up with some old college friends for a century ride. Can you point out one time when you know for a fact that we were not being lead along? One time in the last 17 months where anything other then computer pictures, wood templates and pictures of 1/2 completed frames has actually been produced? Why do you think you are any closer to getting a bike than you were July 2020 or July 2021? Because Pushkar gave you a timeline?

That being said, if Pushkar has time to take your phone call then he has time to send these 2 guys a damn confirmation email of their cancellation.

In terms of rehashing and if it is productive or not, we have a guy on here asking for a Helios refund who was not a founder. I wonder if he would have thought it was productive if I had told the board what we knew about the timeline this summer. Maybe he knew all those facts, but the idea that he is now asking for a refund makes me wonder if he knew the truth about the timeframe of getting a bike. Maybe he would have asked for a refund in July and maybe he would be riding a bike already.

And have you seen the stuff on here we read? What PSI for my tires? Would you like to see my new red stem? Can anyone send me some artwork? Yet you want to call me out for not productive? Come on Man

 

[TomD]

You are correct, I don't know that we haven't been led along for 1.5 years. That's quite the leap of faith though. I believe the project started off with noble intentions, then ~6 months ago when the frame issue manifested pushkar just wanted to find a way to make it happen, and promised something he couldn't deliver on. I think he's doing the right thing now, which is not committing to delivery timelines which he has no control over. He's doing his best to refund founders that want a refund, as soon as possible.

In terms of the follow up issues with those waiting for initial refund payments, I asked about that. He indicated one was a payment processing issue and the other was a misunderstanding (in private conversation the founder was opting to wait vs. posting in the founder forum they wanted a refund, leading to confusion). Sounds like there are a bit of cross communication going on, in multiple places, and things get lost in translation. My suggestion if you aren't getting a response is to call.

 

[Zachdds]

I just had a fun day at work thinking to myself 'another beautiful day in paradise ' vodka martini in my hand click into the forums. Hit The lightning bolt and bam!

Zach it's perfectly okay to vent , best to do it here than in public. I've read about gun toting mainlanders, I hope you aren't one of them.
I feel you man I can understand your frustration.
Vent all you want.
I just wanted to personally thank you and the Founders for funding the Hydra Project.
You should get a Hydra like the rest of us.

Carry on man I gonna enjoy my martini, I'm on my second double now.

I am a from West Virginia. We are born with a gun.

 

[Cuz Vinny]

I have found in past experience that making negative posts concerning issues with a vendor does nothing but make the situation worse. Attempt to work it out directly with the vendor first. If your not getting satisfaction then look at your dispute options with your credit card or financial institution that you used.

 

[Acme]

I’m gonna put my own two cents in here. When someone promises me something and then they don’t come through on that promise I don’t necessarily jump to the conclusion they are lied to me. There can always be a lot of other factors that creep in between someone’s promises and their inability to fulfill it. In today’s world I am experiencing extreme issues trying to keep my business running because I can’t get supplies either. I was on a job recently where nothing is going according to plan I had to locate several key buried connections. The deepest of which was 11 feet. no one knew how deep it was and as I found out later my equipment is not nearly as accurate at 5 feet as it is at 11. Digging on this particular property was very limited because of specialized finishes on the driveway as well as impeccably cared for greenery. As the project wore on it wasn’t necessarily that I had made mistakes but I certainly could have performed my job with a higher standard of care and double checked measurements in more than one or two parameters so I could’ve had a better back up when things didn’t go according to plan. We solve all the issues today. I had a long talk with the contractor that had employed me freely admitting the what I had failed to do and he said “look, nobody’s perfect, I admire the fact that you never quit, you came every time I called you and even showed up after hours and I never felt you were not trying your best and I’m never gonna fault somebody who doesn’t give up. People are never going to be perfect but as long as you keep trying I really appreciate that.

 

[onlineaddy]

In terms of the follow up issues with those waiting for initial refund payments, I asked about that.

Pushkar has the time to chat with you on the phone about other customers but does not have a minute to respond to my repeated inquiries (forum, DM, WW website chat, email, text) about my refund?!

 

[TomD]

Did you call? IME it's best to call if you want a faster response. I've mentioned this before in the founder forum when folks were not getting a response via email, text, chat, forum, etc. I see he did reply in the founder forum thread that your initial refund had been sent, sounds like a payment processing issue. I don't think he's intentionally trying to give you the run around.

 

[onlineaddy]

No, I did not call. Who calls nowadays? That is the most inefficient use of anyone’s time. That should also not be the only way to communicate with your customers, when there are other more practical methods. I literally used every single one of those methods. If none of those gets Pushkar to respond, then he doesn’t want to correspond with me.

My OP in this thread finally got a response from him in the private forum. So I guess that’s what it takes.

 

[TomD]

I agree, but like I said before calling is the best option, and I did so on your behalf. You're welcome.

 

[onlineaddy]

@TomD calling is the best option for you. You’re free to do so and talk to Pushkar about whatever you two wish to discuss.

There is just one thing I want: my money back.

 

[BlackHand]

True, but for the non-founder audience, context is important

Speaking as a non-founder, threads like this are pretty much the only context we get.

From the outside looking in, it sometimes seems like the founders forum must be like Fight Club : The first rule of the founder forum is we don't talk about the founder forum....

 

[evolvable]

For what it’s worth, I found this thread interesting and enlightening.

 

[BashCram]

... look at your dispute options with your credit card or financial institution ...

Founders largely paid using wire transfers. Options are limited there.

 

[Zachdds]

I’m gonna put my own two cents in here. When someone promises me something and then they don’t come through on that promise I don’t necessarily jump to the conclusion they are lied to me.

I agree with this, I did not throw this around without thinking. I still stand by exactly what I said. If someone tells you they will do something by a certain date and without any explanation do not do it then in my book that is a definition of a lie. Telling you one thing and doing another.

In the end some lies are an accident or out of your control, but that doesn’t make it less of a lie.

The easiest way to avoid it is to not make promises you aren’t sure you can keep or to preface them with possible problems, but if you say I will update the group on the 10th and don’t even bother to post even an explanation then that is a lie. If you say I will ship you bike today and don’t bother to reach out and discuss the problems that arose then it is a lie in my books. Everyone is allowed to have their own opinion, and that is mine.

A person is as good as their word. When you read posts like
“Every single deadline has been missed, deadlines are meaningless, you shouldn’t be quoting timelines as if they are real. You know better.”
Then you have to ask yourself, maybe these guys aren’t just picking on Pushkar.

 

[Cuz Vinny]

I’ve had nothing but positive interactions with Pushkar. The few minor issues I’ve had have been worked out directly with him offline. I’m not a Helios founder so I don’t have a stake in the issue but I understand the concern with paying money and not getting a product in a timely manner. Thats why I really prefer to only buy bikes that are in stock. Unfortunately that’s hard to do in todays market with the increase in Ebike popularity and shortages in parts and supplies. Try buying a bike from Sondors, worst company for delays and complete lack of communication.

 

[onlineaddy]

I'll send a transfer in the AM and text you a confirmation. Hopefully will work this time.

The AM has come and gone--past 3:30 pm your time!--and with it another broken promise.

 

[onlineaddy]

@pushkar (Watt Wagons) has had $5799 USD of my money since 9 April 2020 and has not produced the bike I ordered for over 1.5 years. He has repeatedly broken his promises with excuses and is not refunding my money.

 

[Zachdds]

The AM has come and gone--past 3:30 pm your time!--and with it another broken promise.

Ww would be well served to stop giving deadlines and timeframes.

 

[pushkar]

Hey guys, I understand @onlineaddy 's frustration. It is warrantied. We have started the refund process for founders and posted on the private forum.

However in case of Onlineaddy, there was an issue with the wire (but thankfully resolved). We got the notification EOD yesterday that I texted him in the early AM. Clearly it was late and there is warranted exasperation.

In terms of this whole drama, I want to be clear about a couple of things

1. We are refunding the founders who have asked for the refunds. Its being done by returning the inventory we purchased. We have a schedule of refunds from our suppliers that we are tying the refund amount to.

2. We expect some backlash / badmouthing from a couple of people (a vocal minority, those who have commented here) - we cant avoid that. There is nothing that we can realistically say that will address this vocal minority. Even if they had a bike, they probably would still haggle on price, an extra wire, shipping delays, bad color etc etc. Literally nothing till fix this.

For us, we have realized that nothing good will come out of insulting people, saying hateful and hurtful stuff. Its a tough situation for customers and incredibly tough for us. No amount of hiding is going to solve it. We can either get into the whole saga of why the bike was not made, or move on. We are trying to move on.

As far as other customers are concerned, we will let our bikes do the talking. At the end, that is what matters. No bike = no Watt Wagons.

I will copy and paste this on all forums @onlineaddy has posted so folks know where we stand, where we are owning up to our issues, and what we have done to remediate the situation.


Thanks