Full suspension ebikes for hard trail riding

[Ravi Kempaiah]

Ravi,

Do you have a summary of specs for the M1? Very sleek looking. I wonder about the hub power and battery range when off road with this. The mid drives are so efficient with the gears when going slow. Stealth bikes compensate with big power and big batteries >> high weight.

OK - I see it is 500W, 400Whrs. What is the weight?

Hi Dan,
Here is more info that I received from the retailer.
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Here is some information on the M1 Erzberg S-Pedelec: This is with Shimano XT and FOX Float Fork. It is $7995.
We can do this with Shimano SLX and SRSuntour fork for $5795. This comes in Med (46cm BB to top of seat tube) and large (51 cm BB to top of seat tube). This bike weighs 21Kg
BASIC EQUIPMENT
Drive: Shimano XT
Derailleur Shimano XT
Derailleur Shimano XT E-Type
Crank Shimano XT, 44/32/22
Gear lever Shimano XT Rapidfire
Sprocket Shimano XT, 11-36
Chain Shimano SLX HG75
Pedals Shimano PDM530 Pedal, black and white
modulus of elasticity each with 2 removable 6 Ah Li-Ion batteries; ...
BRAKES
Brakes Shimano XT disc, 180/160
Brake lever Shimano XT
IMPELLER
Rims Mavic XM319 disc, 32/36, black and white
Hub Front Hub Dynamo Shimano DHS500, 32h, black
HR hub M1 hub motor, 36h, disc Intl. 500 W
Tire Schwalbe Rocket Ron Performance, Folding, 54 ...
CHASSIS
Damper FOX Float Factory, CTD
Fork FOX Float Factory 32 CTD, remote lockout, ...
Rate of taxation Tange IS245LT, tapered, integrated, aluminum ...
ERGONOMICS
Handlebars M1 31.8 oversize, 660x15 mm, black and white
Saddle Fi: zik Rondine
Seatpost M1 350x31.6 mm, black and white
Porch M1 7 °, 90/100/110 mm, black and white

There is also the M1 Erzberg Pedelec; with Shimano XT and Fox Float fork $6395. With SLX and SRSuntour fork $5395. This comes in Med (46cm BB to top of seat tube) and large (51 cm BB to top of seat tube). This bike weighs 19.5 Kg
Here are some specs:
CLASS SPECIFICATION
Transmission: Shimano SLX
Rear Derailleur Shimano SLX
Front Derailleur Shimano SLX, E-Type
Crankset Shimano FCM552, 44/32/22
Shifter Shimano SLX Rapid Fire
Cassette Shimano Deore HG62, 11-36
Chain Shimano HG54
Pedals Shimano PDM505 Clickpedals, black/white
eModul each equipped with 2 removable 6 Ah Li-Ion ...
BRAKE SYSTEM
Brakes Shimano SLX disc, 180/160
Brakelever Shimano SLX
WHEEL
Rims Mavic XM319 disc, 32/36, black/white
Hub Front Shimano SLX 32h
Hub Rear M1 hub motor, 36h, Disc Intl. 250 W
Tires Schwalbe Rocket Ron Performance, Folding, 54 ...
CHASSIS
Rear Shock Suntour Epicon, L-RP, 165/38/8
Fork Suntour Raidon SCRL-R, Remote Lockout, ...
Headset Tange IS245LT, tapered, integrated, Alu ...
ERGONOMICS
Handlebar M1 31,8 Oversize, 660x15 mm, black/white
Saddle Fi:zik Rondine
Seatpost M1 350x31.6 mm, black/white
Stem M1 7°, 90/100/110 mm, black/white


You can also do this bike without a motor, called the Erzberg Pure: with Shimano XT Fox Float fork for $4095. and with the Shimano SLX and SRSuntour fork $3095. This comes in Med (46cm BB to top of seat tube) and large (51 cm BB to top of seat tube). This bike weighs 12.4 Kg

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

I'm not sure, I only ever took mine onto light trails but it worked really well. I was surprised when the SR Suntour suspension fork gave out during the ride in Chattanooga with Chandlee.

Slight correction.
2012/2013 Xtrem models comes with SR Suntour XCT (low end)
2013/2014 Neo 9er comes with SR Suntour XCR (mid)
2012/2013/2014 Neo Jumper comes with RockShox XC 30/32. (better than SR but < Fox)

 

[Bike_On]

Here is my short list of bikes that can handle it, by weight.

1. Haibike Xduro Nduro Pro, ??? lb, 36V/11Ahr, 350W, Gen2 Bosch mid drive, 26" wheels, $8.8k
2. Lapierre Overvolt FS 900, 42.9 lb, 36V/11Ahr, 350W, Gen2 Bosch mid drive, 27.5" wheels, $5.5k
3. Felt Duale, 44.0 lb, 36V/11Ahr, 350W, Gen2 Bosch mid drive, 27.5" wheels, $5.8k
4. Haibike Xduro AMT Pro, 46.5 lb, 36V/11Ahr, 350W, Gen2 Bosch mid drive, 27.5" wheels, $7.7k
5. Haibike Xduro AMT RX, 46.5?? lb, 36V/11Ahr, 350W, Gen2 Bosch mid drive, 27.5" wheels, $5.6k
6. Haibike Xduro FS RX, 48 lb, 36V/11Ahr, 350W, Gen2 Bosch mid drive, 27.5" wheels, $4.9k
7. *Neo Jumper, 48 lb, 36V/9Ahr, 350W, BH geared rear hub, 26" wheels,$4k
8. Focus Thron Impulse Speed, 48 lb, 36V/17Ahr, 350W, Impulse II mid drive, 27.5" wheels, $7k
9. *Neo Jumper B, 52 lb, 36V/12Ahr, 350W, BH geared rear hub, 27.5" wheels,$4.2k
10. Optibike R8, 59 lb, 37V/26Ahr, 750W, Optibike MBB mid drive, 26" wheels, $12k
11. Optibike R11, 63 lb, 48V/18Ahr, 1100W, Optibike MBB mid drive, 26" wheels, $14k
12. M55 Terminus, 65 lb, 43.2V/37.2Ahr, 3000W, mid drive, 26" ? wheels, $38k
13. Stealth Fighter, 75 lb, 48V/20Ahr, 3000W, dd rear hub, 24" wheels, $7.9k
14. Stealth Bomber, 116 lb, 72V/20Ahr, 4500W, dd rear hub, 24" wheels, $9.9k

* Not for heavy off road use.
** iGo Titan and Evelo Aries.... forgetaboutit.

Updated 8/6/14

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

Updated 8/6/14

Addition:

Haibike Sduro Line with Yamaha mid drive: https://www.haibike.com/de/de

 

[Bike_On]

Addition:

Haibike Sduro Line with Yamaha mid drive: https://www.haibike.com/de/de

Ravi, your resourcefullness is impecible!

 

[Bike_On]

Someone or some peoples are making a large investment into Haibike. Multiple platforms, sized, options, with all quality component.

Bosch is driving hard for the market.

There seems to be a convergence for mid drive motors to be at 350W. This power level seems to be the optimum level for the heavy, off road rider and their needs. That supports early data from the Optibike world, circa 2007-08, where a dude from Cali rode his Opti very hard on single track. He commented that he rode in eco mode ~ 300W! The higher power level was too much and jeopardized control.

The dude is Jamie, Electric Dirt, on old Opti google forum. Here is what he had to say about hub ebikes.

ElectricDirt

7/30/12

Well before I went Opti I did have hub motor bike and even strengthen the axles. Still they all broke. This was on an 7 inch travel bike. So In my experience until a hub motor reaches for downhill quality component structures then this will be a reoccurring problem. Seriously 2 or 3 runs down Downieville will break the axle. My Opti has done the Downieville under 1 hour more than 50 times 5000ft desent, not to mention Skeggs 75+++ times and jumps with dimensions of 30ft long 4 to 5 feet high untold times. My Opti has multiple normal life times of use on it. Maybe other Ebikes could do this, maybe not?

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

We should schedule a DC ebikers get together, Dan.
Mark and Dean would be interested too.

 

[JoePah]

We should schedule a DC ebikers get together, Dan.
Mark and Dean would be interested too.

Let me know!

 

[opimax]

Here's Mark w/interest!

 

[Bike_On]

I'm in.

 

[Admin]

Someone or some peoples are making a large investment into Haibike. Multiple platforms, sized, options, with all quality component.

Bosch is driving hard for the market.

There seems to be a convergence for mid drive motors to be at 350W. This power level seems to be the optimum level for the heavy, off road rider and their needs. That supports early data from the Optibike world, circa 2007-08, where a dude from Cali rode his Opti very hard on single track. He commented that he rode in eco mode ~ 300W! The higher power level was too much and jeopardized control.

The dude is Jamie, Electric Dirt, on old Opti google forum. Here is what he had to say about hub ebikes.

ElectricDirt

7/30/12

Well before I went Opti I did have hub motor bike and even strengthen the axles. Still they all broke. This was on an 7 inch travel bike. So In my experience until a hub motor reaches for downhill quality component structures then this will be a reoccurring problem. Seriously 2 or 3 runs down Downieville will break the axle. My Opti has done the Downieville under 1 hour more than 50 times 5000ft desent, not to mention Skeggs 75+++ times and jumps with dimensions of 30ft long 4 to 5 feet high untold times. My Opti has multiple normal life times of use on it. Maybe other Ebikes could do this, maybe not?

Awesome info and I loved the testimonial there. One other reason that ebikes may be staying under the 400 mark (aside from weight, cost and excessive power) is that some states use this as a cutoff for electric bikes. That's the case in Colorado. According to Wikipedia:

Ebike definition in Colorado follows the HR 727 National Law: 20 mph (30 km/h) e-power and 750 W (1 hp) max, 2 or 3 wheels, pedals that work. Legal low-powered ebikes are allowed on roads and bike lanes, and prohibited from using their motors on bike and pedestrian paths, unless overridden by local ordinance. The city of Boulder is the first to have done so, banning ebikes over 400W from bike lanes. Bicycles and Ebikes are disallowed on certain high speed highways and all Interstates unless signed as "Allowed" in certain rural Interstate stretches where the Interstate is the ONLY means of travel.

 

[Bike_On]

Updated 4/17/14
Updated 8/6/14

Here is my short list of bikes that can handle it, by weight.

1. Nicolai E-Boxx2, 42 lb, 36V/11 Ahr, 350/550W, Gen2 Bosch mid drive, $5.5k
2. Lapierre Overvolt FS 900, 42.9 lb, 36V/11Ahr, 350W, Gen2 Bosch mid drive, 27.5" wheels, $5.5k
3. Felt Duale, 44.0 lb, 36V/11Ahr, 350W, Gen2 Bosch mid drive, 27.5" wheels, $5.8k
4. Haibike Xduro AMT Pro, 46.5 lb, 36V/11Ahr, 350W, Gen2 Bosch mid drive, 27.5" wheels, $7.7k
5. BMEBikes, 48lb, 36V/8.8Ahr, 350/600W, 8fun mid,26" wheels, 43.9k
6. Haibike Xduro FS RX, 48 lb, 36V/11Ahr, 350W, Gen2 Bosch mid drive, 27.5" wheels, $4.9k
7. *Neo Jumper, 48 lb, 36V/9Ahr, 350W, BH geared rear hub, 26" wheels,$4k
8. Focus Thron Impulse Speed, 48 lb, 36V/17Ahr, 350W, Impulse II mid drive, 27.5" wheels, $7k
9. Haibike Xduro Nduro Pro, 49 lb, 36V/11Ahr, 350W, Gen2 Bosch mid drive, 26" wheels, $9.1k
10. Haibike Xduro AMT RX, 49.2lb, 36V/11Ahr, 350W, Gen2 Bosch mid drive, 27.5" wheels, $5.5k
11. *Neo Jumper B, 52 lb, 36V/12Ahr, 350W, BH geared rear hub, 27.5" wheels,$4.2k
12. Optibike R8, 59 lb, 37V/26Ahr, 750W, Optibike MBB mid drive, 26" wheels, $12k
13. Optibike R11, 63 lb, 48V/18Ahr, 1100W, Optibike MBB mid drive, 26" wheels, $14k
14. M55 Terminus, 65 lb, 43.2V/37.2Ahr, 3000W, mid drive, 26" ? wheels, $38k
15. Stealth Fighter, 75 lb, 48V/20Ahr, 3000W, dd rear hub, 24" wheels, $7.9k
16. Stealth Bomber, 116 lb, 72V/20Ahr, 4500W, dd rear hub, 24" wheels, $9.9k

* Not for heavy off road use.

 

[stevenast]

* Not for heavy off road use.

Moderate off-road use

That's a better view. These bikes cost too much to abuse, plus it is dangerous when you damage the structure of your bike.

For example, bike number 10 on your list above, is listed as "all-mountain" by the manufacturer. This means it is "intended for trail and uphill riding. It can handle rough technical areas, moderately sized obstacles, and small jumps. No large drop offs, jumps, or launches requiring long suspension travel or heavy duty components and no spending time in the air landing hard".

Moderate off-road use is probably the recommendation of all, or nearly all, of the manufacturers on the list above, not "heavy off-road use".

 

[Bike_On]

Moderate off-road use

That's a better view. These bikes cost too much to abuse, plus it is dangerous when you damage the structure of your bike.

For example, bike number 10 on your list above, is listed as "all-mountain" by the manufacturer. This means it is "intended for trail and uphill riding. It can handle rough technical areas, moderately sized obstacles, and small jumps. No large drop offs, jumps, or launches requiring long suspension travel or heavy duty components and no spending time in the air landing hard".

Moderate off-road use is probably the recommendation of all, or nearly all, of the manufacturers on the list above, not "heavy off-road use".

I actually meant "heavy Off-road" use, not moderate. The * was for the Easy Motion bikes, that meet the full suspension criteria, but the compoment are not built to take hard off-road.

When I say "heavy" I mean normal, fast, single track on mixed surface of dirt/ rock/root. I Wasn't thinking about 10 foot jumps.

I think these bikes can handle hard a ride like is a good $5k mtn bike.

 

[stevenast]

Totally cool! If "heavy" = "normal single track" then I have no worries for those reading. I guess I had a different interpretation of "heavy", thank you for clarifying!

 

[NoDTMF]

Why limit it to FS? In the "old days" we would heavy trail ride with no suspension. I've taken my new bike heavy trail riding, and the fact that is lighter than most FS is important, I think.

On the downhills I've actually started bunny hopping, which was a very necessary skill on the solid frame bikes.

Perhaps a seperate thread for "hard tails" that are adequate for hard trail riding? or dual purpose- Commute and hard trail?
That said, one concern I have with mid-motors is center clearance and bottoming out on the motor. Has anyone bottomed out?
Also I am somewhat shy about stream crossings....but those are about to dry up here in CA.

I have no problem taking my bike on a trail like this (and have), but scale the speed back to that of a worn out 55 year old

 

[stevenast]

Why limit it to FS? In the "old days" we would heavy trail ride with no suspension.

It's all about how fast you want to destroy your frame. At least the suspension absorbs some shock.

 

[Bike_On]

Why limit it to FS? In the "old days" we would heavy trail ride with no suspension. I've taken my new bike heavy trail riding, and the fact that is lighter than most FS is important, I think.

On the downhills I've actually started bunny hopping, which was a very necessary skill on the solid frame bikes.

Perhaps a seperate thread for "hard tails" that are adequate for hard trail riding? or dual purpose- Commute and hard trail?
That said, one concern I have with mid-motors is center clearance and bottoming out on the motor. Has anyone bottomed out?
Also I am somewhat shy about stream crossings....but those are about to dry up here in CA.

I have no problem taking my bike on a trail like this (and have), but scale the speed back to that of a worn out 55 year old

You are 100% correct that hard tails can do about the same as FS. For organization and to ID bike and compare, I just did FS. Also, there are fewer FS ebikes out there so it was easy to ID a group.

If someone want tondo another camparison thread, please do. Lots of bikes out there.

With the electric boost and likely a fast single track experience, I just felt FS is called for. More weight on the frame too.

Also, on this website under mountain bikes category, theyox both.

 

[Bike_On]

Here is my short list of bikes that can handle it, by weight.

1. Nicolai E-Boxx2, 42 lb, 36V/11 Ahr, 350/550W, Gen2 Bosch mid drive, $5.5k
2. Lapierre Overvolt FS 900, 42.9 lb, 36V/11Ahr, 350W, Gen2 Bosch mid drive, 27.5" wheels, $5.5k
3. Felt Duale, 44.0 lb, 36V/11Ahr, 350W, Gen2 Bosch mid drive, 27.5" wheels, $5.8k
4. Haibike Xduro AMT Pro, 46.5 lb, 36V/11Ahr, 350W, Gen2 Bosch mid drive, 27.5" wheels, $7.7k
5. Easy Motion Bosch Jumper, 47lb, 36V/11Ahr, 350/550W, Bosch Gen2, 27.5" wheels, $5.2k
6. Haibike XDURO Fullseven RX , 48lb, 36V/11Ahr, 350W, Bosch Gen2, 60nm, 27.5" wheels, $5.5k
7. BMEBikes Apollos, 48lb, 36V/8.8Ahr, 350/600W, 8fun mid,26" wheels, $3.9k
8. Haibike Xduro FS RX, 48 lb, 36V/11Ahr, 350W, Gen2 Bosch mid drive, 27.5" wheels, $4.9k
9. *Neo Jumper, 48 lb, 36V/9Ahr, 350W, BH geared rear hub, 26" wheels,$4k
10. Focus Thron Impulse Speed, 48 lb, 36V/17Ahr, 350W, Impulse II mid drive, 27.5" wheels, $7k
11. Specialized S-Works Turbo Levo FSR 6Fattie, 48.5 lb, 36V/14Ahr, 250/530W, Brose MD, 90nm, 27.5x3" wheels, $9k
12. Haibike Xduro Nduro Pro, 49 lb, 36V/11Ahr, 350W, Gen2 Bosch mid drive, 26" wheels, $9.1k
13. Haibike Xduro AMT RX, 49.2lb, 36V/11Ahr, 350W, Gen2 Bosch, 60nm, 27.5" wheels, $6.35k
14. IZIP E3 Peak DS, 50lb, 48V/8.7Ahr, 350W, Tranzx geared mid, 27.5" wheels, $4.5k
15. Haibike Xduro Nduro RX, 51b, 36V/11Ahr, 350W, Gen2 Bosch mid drive, 27.5" wheels, $7.0k
16. *Easy Motion 27.5 Evo Jumper, 52lb, 36V/11.6Ahr, 350/548W, Dapu, 37nm, 27.5" wheels, $4.3k
17. *Neo Jumper B, 52 lb, 36V/12Ahr, 350W, BH geared rear hub, 27.5" wheels,$4.2k
18. Optibike R8, 59 lb, 37V/26Ahr, 750W, Optibike MBB mid drive, 26" wheels, $12k
19. Optibike R11, 63 lb, 48V/18Ahr, 1100W, Optibike MBB mid drive, 26" wheels, $14k
20. M55 Terminus, 65 lb, 43.2V/37.2Ahr, 3000W, mid drive, 26" ? wheels, $38k
21. Stealth Fighter, 75 lb, 48V/20Ahr, 3000W, dd rear hub, 24" wheels, $7.9k
22. Stealth Bomber, 116 lb, 72V/20Ahr, 4500W, dd rear hub, 24" wheels, $9.9k

* Not for heavy off road use.

Updated 8/6/14
Updated 4/17/15
Updated 9/16/15

updated today.

 

[MLB]

LoL, you'll never get agreement on what categories should be. Plenty of hard tails that are 'serious' trail machines.
Court, you'd be hard pressed to define the differences of a cross country versus down hill bike and where those lines cross. Much less compare bikes based on such.
Even with regular bikes the lines are very blurry any more.