Feedback and Help on BULLS Lacuba EVO E8 Wave Frame

[Alberto Orchansky]

This is a copy of the email sent to Citrus Cycle and to BULLS on August 14, 2017

I bought an LACUBA EVO E8 WAVE from Citrus Cycle, Kelly Demoline, Ladysmith, BC, Canada on May 31, 2017. The choice of this model was due to my physical conditions. A few years ago I had an accident suffering serious injuries in my neck. As a consequence, my neck is fused, limiting my head movement. I have been an active bicycle rider, both mountain, and road- all my life, but since the accident, I was not able to get back to riding anyone.

Meeting Kelly Dmoline from Citrus Cycles changed all this once he introduced me the EVO E8 Wave.
It's riding position was just perfect for me, absolutely comfortable and the pedal-assisted feature made possible for me to get back safely to the road.

Unfortunately, and just within a couple of days, I had a terrifying and literally life threatening experience. While 'testing' the bike downhill on a paved road, reaching about 40 k/h (not pedaling) the bike started to wobble violently. Only thanks to the experience I have riding bicycles I was able to stop it safely.

The experience was so shocking that I immediately contacted Kelly Demoline, having decided to return the bike. He was very surprised about the issue but, without hesitation, was ready to take the bike back.

Overnight I thought about it, about how much the bike was going to give me back to my life, that I decided to keep it with the condition I set to myself to never get to 40 km/h again.

However, the problem subsisted at different speeds, 30, 25, 20 km/k and so. I kept trying to figure out what may be out of line to induce such a behavior. I have the bike checked in a bike shop without finding anything abnormal. All they did was to adjust the suspension fork pressure for my weight, 200 lbs.

Finally, today August 15, 2017, with the odometer at 179 km I was able to induce and reproduce the problem myself AT ANY SPEED.

Riding the bike on a paved road with enough grade to force the bike to increase its speed, WITHOUT PEDALING, once reaching about 15 km/h start jiggling the handlebar left-right right left quite fast. The movement will induce a wobble on the front end that will rapidly be transferred, amplified to the back, reaching its maximum where most of the weight is concentrated. I tend to think the weight and location of the battery are crucial components in this wave resonance / dynamic amplification problem.

The meaning of this is that just a pebble, pothole or any irregularity on the road may lead to a 'handlebar jiggle', inducing the wobbling effect AT ANY SPEED.

That's exactly why it happens to me so many times and at different speeds.

I understand the problem is magnified due to the typical riding position of an urban type bike, where there is limited rider's weight on the handlebars.

Another situation associated with the weight on the handlebars is when making a traffic signal: a single hand on the handlebar and very little control upon the jiggling/wobbling effect with the other hand.

To summarize, I do not believe there is nothing technically wrong or defective with my particular bicycle.

However, I strongly believe there is a conceptual flaw in the design of this particular model, making it unsafe to ride it to the point that it should be discontinued and a recall issued.

Sincerely,

 

[Trail Cruiser]

I feel your pain. I wonder if the wobble you are describing is the same as in the video at 21:39.

If that's the case, then your ebike does not have enough torsional rigidity to handle the payload. The LACUBA EVO E8 WAVE only has the down tube attached to the seat tube, and has no top tube that enhances the strength and rigidity. I suggest you try to ride the high step version or the BULLS Lacuba EVO E45 which has similar frame but with the top tube, and then see if you can still duplicate the problem. Either way, I think you should exchange your ebike since it is not safe for you.

Here is educational video on speed wobble.

 

[Alberto Orchansky]

Thanks Mark for your attention.
No, the wobble I experience is of such magnitude that unless you stop, or try to stop the bike, you'll be thrown out of it. It's not a 'vibration', it's a side to side wobble of the entire bike. The girl riding the bike in the video would've been so scared she would've come back walking, assuming she didn't fall breaking something. Moreover, note that particular bike has the battery mounted on the back and the motor located on the rear wheel, therefore most of the weight is on the back. Some wobble, on any low-step 'girls' bike, is expected due to the lack of the upper tube and a reduced frame torsion. However, I totally agree with you that what I am experiencing won't happen with a 'top tube' bike. The issue is that -due to my physical limitations- I am able to ride only step-through bikes. I cannot 'mount' a 'boys' bike.
I am posting this because this Lacuba model is being sold by BULLS without any warnings such: this bike should not, under any circumstances, be ridden by any person heavier than 200 lbs and taller than 5'8". Please note this warning has not been tested with people of any other weight/height combinations. Therefore, ride it at your own risk.
Thanks again Mark,
Alberto

 

[Trail Cruiser]

I think, speed wobble is a combination of inadequate overall structural rigidity and top heaviness.

I think a little reinforcement by adding a top tube would have solved the issue.

 

[JRA]

If it looks like the one in this picture instead of the one above you can see a big difference in potential torsional rigidity.

I have seen other bikes like this and often wonder what keeps them from doing exactly as the OP describes so it doesn't surprise me that it is doing what he says. A shop sold this to him knowing full well how tall and how much he weighed. I would take it back, good luck on getting Bulls to do anything about it on a consumer level other than what has obviously been done to the bike in the prior picture.

 

[Ann M.]

Unfortunately, @JRA, that hybrid frame design in the prior image is not an "add on" feature; it has to be done during the initial build of the bike. Other brands of really low step ebikes have had a similar wobble issue with hub motor setups and rear mounted batteries, particularly with bigger riders. It is most apparent at the initial acceleration and sometimes at deceleration to a stop. The added rigidity of some additional piece to the frame, an added strut (and it doesn't have to be much) will resolve the issue. Look at the first edition of Currie Tech's Izip Zuma low step ebikes; they had the same issue. Next season, they added a small extra reinforcement just above the crank arms which solved the shimmy issue.

As for a fix, the shop and buyer will have to work this out; Bulls may not have realized how much vibration would happen with this style of frame since their focus has really been more on other styles of frames. Hopefully all 3 can find a middle ground so @Alberto Orchansky, can find the bike that works for him. I would strongly suggest a lot of test riding prior to taking a bike home.

 

[JRA]

Yeah, I was alluding to the fact that the upper picture is a design change and I know it can't be performed on the lower bike. But my first bike I ever had did have a removable top tube so it could be used both ways, and it was red!

Step through designs have been around forever and most work because they don't get ridden all that fast. But add a motor for speed and some weight and you should really be thinking about torsional rigidity.

 

[Trail Cruiser]

There are 3 versions of this ebike. You can try the low step version and see if you can lift your foot above the top tube. Some people, me included, lean the bike 45 degrees (or even lower) towards me before I step over the bike.
(Link Removed - No Longer Exists)

Wave is an interesting name for a product that shimmies and wobble.

 

[Sonoboy]

There are 3 versions of this ebike. You can try the low step version and see if you can lift your foot above the top tube. Some people, me included, lean the bike 45 degrees (or even lower) towards me before I step over the bike.
(Link Removed - No Longer Exists)
View attachment 17935
Wave is an interesting name for a product that shimmies and wobble.

It makes one wonder if they increased the tube wall thickness on the Wave or simply "left off" the other frame elements. Doesn't inspire confidence in the design.

 

[Alberto Orchansky]

Unfortunately, @JRA, that hybrid frame design in the prior image is not an "add on" feature; it has to be done during the initial build of the bike. Other brands of really low step ebikes have had a similar wobble issue with hub motor setups and rear mounted batteries, particularly with bigger riders. It is most apparent at the initial acceleration and sometimes at deceleration to a stop. The added rigidity of some additional piece to the frame, an added strut (and it doesn't have to be much) will resolve the issue. Look at the first edition of Currie Tech's Izip Zuma low step ebikes; they had the same issue. Next season, they added a small extra reinforcement just above the crank arms which solved the shimmy issue.

As for a fix, the shop and buyer will have to work this out; Bulls may not have realized how much vibration would happen with this style of frame since their focus has really been more on other styles of frames. Hopefully all 3 can find a middle ground so @Alberto Orchansky, can find the bike that works for him. I would strongly suggest a lot of test riding prior to taking a bike home.

Thanks @JRA
I am attaching a photo and made a composite of it. On the left, and marked with a RED CIRCLE, is the photo sent from BULLS to my vendor/dealer explaining how the seat post is attached to the front of the bike. The explanation from BULLS to the photo is quote: As I mentioned on the phone this is the first claim we’ve heard of a Lacuba EVO E8 having any speed wobble. Our wave frame doesn’t have a top tube but is strengthened with a wide downtube and also a reinforcement tube that’s welded at the “dip” (pics attached) end of quote. The BULLS photo -on the left- is the one with the RED CIRCLE. On the right, is a photo of my bike, which I submitted back to my vendor, which is going to be sent to BULLS including my own comment: I composed a photo whereas the original you sent -with the red circle- is on the left. My bike is on the right shown with the measuring tape. If you count the number of welding 'spots', there is a difference of 3 welding spots between both bikes. Assuming each weld is of the same thickness, the height of the (almost) triangular piece welded between the vertical and horizontal bars must be different: higher on the triangular piece of the BULLS photo. Also, and this might be just an illusion due to the angle of the photo, I have the impression that the triangular piece marked on the red circle is higher and steeper than the one on my bike.
I'll keep you posted and many thanks for your interest.

 

[JRA]

That gusset is hardly adequate in my eyes but does seem to be close to the same in both pictures. The low step version is obviously a stronger solution. If you looked at the frame without the motor installed it would look even more flimsy and I am not sure what strength is afforded by the motors connection to the frame which is only via several bolts which can loosen over time, especially if there is stress on them which there would be in that situation.

 

[JRA]

Big difference in design there to my eye. A lot of torsional strength in the motor mounting plate of the Flyer which looks very stout compared to the Bulls. The more contact with the mounting plate the better it seems.

 

[Alberto Orchansky]

Is the drive the sole element binding the seatpost tube to the downtube.? If so that might be the issue. Here in Switzerland a company called Flyer produces ´classic shaped frames' (i.e Dutch style bikes) for many of its models. In a TV interview, a rep. explained that this is the most difficult type of frame to produce because the structures need to be reinforced in order to resist increased loads. This comes from a company that has produced Dutch style frames for over 15 years. Now, looking at the design of your bike, it almost looks like the drive is a single porting element that bears the loads coming from the down tube and seat tube.

I just happen to have a Flyer bike with me, so I took a picture. Looking at the frame design below, you can see that it's structurally reinforced in 3 places: headtube, bottom bracket drive assembly, and under the seat post. It's a very stiff bike. There's nothing I can do to induce any torsion and I weigh 210 pounds. I've pushed it pretty hard going uphill.

View attachment 17950

I appreciate so much your contribution. Yes, the drive is the sole element binding the seatpost tube to the downtube, being 'reinforced' with the gusset pointed by @JRA in two of his comments. It is unfortunate there is no other Lacuba Wave owner joining this thread. His/her comment and ability to replicate the issue would be of extreme help for everybody.
In the meantime, I am in contact with Bulls through my vendor. I had the bike professionally inspected twice, (at a cost of CDN 300, not too bad considering it's CND 5,500 brand new bike). As reported previously, nothing but an adjustment for my weight on the fork's air pressure was required. Now I am requested to have the front spokes checked since Bulls believe that may also explain the issue.
I envy so much your Flyer bike...!
Thanks

 

[Trail Cruiser]

If the problem is not resolved after they did all the "tightening" of the ebike's integrity, then you have to get your money back! The problem is real and if they don't acknowledge it then go to the media, make a lot of noise. After that, fight it in court as a defective product. I don't know if lemon law also applies to ebikes. Make sure you video the actual shimmy from different angles so we can watch it at youtube.

 

[Alberto Orchansky]

If the problem is not resolved after they did all the "tightening" of the ebike's integrity, then you have to get your money back! The problem is real and if they don't acknowledge it then go to the media, make a lot of noise. After that, fight it in court as a defective product. I don't know if lemon law also applies to ebikes. Make sure you video the actual shimmy from different angles so we can watch it at youtube.

This morning I had the bike checked -again- at a different bike shop. The third inspection and in this case, to get another independent opinion.
They were NOT able to find anything out of order, including checking the torque on everything 'torquable' and particularly in reference to Bull's last request, to have the front spokes checked.

I am NOT blaming anybody but myself. However, one of the main considerations for the selection was the fact that it was rated as the Number 1 by EBR in Best City Electric Bikes for 2016/2017 category And yes, I rode it, I compared it with other bikes and this one was by far the one that, for me, offered the best riding position given my physical limitations.

I posted the same letter that initiated this thread on EBR review. I got a response from the reviewer that, to make it short, I am not quoting here (you can see it in the review). However, I am quoting here a paragraph from my response to the reviewer:

..... I didn’t mention this before but just minutes after my first ‘wobble encounter’, I took the bike to a highly recognized bike shop. I live in a very particular place, on the Sunshine Coast of British Columbia, Canada. Mountain biking is VERY sophisticated here all year, and those guys work only with mountain bikes. The first thing they saw was my terrified face, the only one I could’ve to have after being so close to smashing 260 lbs at 30 miles/h against a boulder or a tree (no difference). Then they looked at my bike and both mechanics said: no wonders you didn’t get killed already with that *sh&%@y* fork. Well…, I became quite disappointed. Having paid a fortune for this bike I thought the components were equivalent -kind of- to having a Porsche class bike. True, just a Boxster, but a Porsche nevertheless. Then, I started to look at all the other components and, frankly, they are quite low-level. So what did I pay for? a battery? technology? Wobbling excitement?

I appreciate your comment and suggestions, and this is precisely the reason of why I initiated this thread in this forum and the title I gave to it: "RECALL and DISCONTINUE LACUBA EVO E8 WAVE"

I am packing the bike and shipping it back to the vendor. I'll keep you posted.

Cheers,

Alberto

 

[Sonoboy]

Gee, and I was upset that my $7000+ R&M Delite arrived without a bell (among other items I paid for), and now the vendor seemingly has no time to answer my emails. Perhaps I should consider myself lucky that the bike is at least rideable.

 

[Alberto Orchansky]

Gee, and I was upset that my $7000+ R&M Delite arrived without a bell (among other items I paid for), and now the vendor seemingly has no time to answer my emails. Perhaps I should consider myself lucky that the bike is at least rideable.

Sorry but I do not think your situation applies here. I do not have any issues with my vendor (Kelly Demoline from Citrus Cycles, Ladysmith, BC, Canada). Quite the opposite, he has been extremely helpful and communication with him has been flawless. He's actively trying to get a solution for the issue. He is the one dealing with the manufacturer (I am glad he's able to do so since I never got any response from Bulls).
Cheers

 

[Sonoboy]

Sorry but I do not think your situation applies here. I do not have any issues with my vendor (Kelly Demoline from Citrus Cycles, Ladysmith, BC, Canada). Quite the opposite, he has been extremely helpful and communication with him has been flawless. He's actively trying to get a solution for the issue. He is the one dealing with the manufacturer (I am glad he's able to do so since I never got any response from Bulls).
Cheers

You are correct, and my apologies to both you and Kelly at Citrus Cycles. He truly seems like a nice guy from his very enjoyable videos. This was certainly the incorrect forum with which to blast my East Coast supplier of the Delite.

 

[Admin]

Great posts @Mark Peralta, thank you for taking the time to embed videos and provide feedback to Alberto. This is the kind of patience and well-researched feedback that makes a community like the EBR Forums work. Again, thank you

 

[Alberto Orchansky]

Great posts @Mark Peralta, thank you for taking the time to embed videos and provide feedback to Alberto. This is the kind of patience and well-researched feedback that makes a community like the EBR Forums work. Again, thank you

Hello Court,

My post was originally titled "RECALL and DISCONTINUE LACUBA EVO E8 WAVE" because of the 'wobbling' issue on my Evo Wave 2017. I survived two very scary situations and got to enjoy the 'thrill of wobbling' many, many times. Just read the thread.

Someone (not me) replaced the heading to a more polite "Feedback and Help on BULLS Lacuba EVO E8 Wave Frame".

Now the Lacuba Evo Wave 2018 is out on the market.

You can find its review on this site.
The first 'con' is, quote:

The deepest wave, step-thru, frame does experience some frame flex, this reduces pedal efficiency and may contribute to speed wobble of the front wheel depending on how much the rider weighs, how the body position is setup, whether the rear rack is loaded, and how fast you go, just keep both hands on the bars if you notice a bit of wobble on the front wheel at higher speeds

As the reviewer points out, the wobbling problem is still there. If you get this bike, please follow the reviewer's advise: always keep both hands on the bars !!!

Since this is impossible while trying to make (say) a turning sign, I opted to attach a Back Turning Light signal I can control from the handlebars. Please, don't check your watch or scratch your neck, wipe your sweat or get down to the water bottle. Just keep both hands on the handlebar, all the time. Otherwise, you'll get hurt.

Hope reviewing this thread will definitively help some of you (re)considering this bike.

In short:

Is this bike fun to ride?
NO
Is this bike safe?
NO
Will you consider buying it again
NO
Am I upset?
YES
Do you regret not returning the bike when I still have the opportunity?
YES

Be safe, keep your hands on the handlebar.....