Espin Flow pedal assist power levels

[GenXrider]

There is also a section to adjust the assist level but have no idea what it means because it only shows one screen:

View attachment 78629

Maybe that's how much assist each level will give after you reach the speed limit at that level? Maybe I'll play with it.

I mentioned that setting about a month ago in this post:
https://electricbikereview.com/foru...-level-ride1up-500-700-lmtd.40191/post-378131

I think that setting relates to the PAS sensitivity because I found a setting with about the same name with a description for a couple other displays which also go to a pretty high number, well in excess of the number of assist levels. For example, there's a similar setting on the KD218 and KD51C-D displays.

From KD51C-D manual: http://www.key-display.com/Downloads/User Manual/KD51C-D Users Manual-201708.pdf
The description says:
"Assistant num represents the sensitivity of PAS settings. The sensitivity value is “5” to “24”.

And on KD218 display, is shows this in the manual:

 

[AHicks]

It would appear to me that Espin is using more than 1 controller/display. That or I'm too stupid to figure out how to get to the screens shown above (post# 161). Our Flow has nothing like that, nor mention of anything like that in the supplied manual.

 

[BigNerd]

But what does "PAS Sensitivity" or "assist level" actually mean?

5 to 24 is also a strange range. I'll play with the setting if I can find it on the Espin and see what the range of the numbers are.

Such a weird name for a setting.

 

[AHicks]

PAS sensitivity generally refers to how far the crank must turn prior to powering up the motor. The controller is told to wait until "X" number of magnets pass the sensor prior to that happening.

You have to be careful here as too sensitive can cause an unexpected/false start. For instance if the sensitivity is set to 1 magnet, and you stop with the crank positioned just shy of a magnet passing the sensor, you can just bump a pedal and cause the power to be turned on. I LIKE sensitive, for the low speed control I can get with it on a single track trail or whenever maneuvering in tight quarters.

The little old lady just getting used to here first e-bike may NOT like that sensitivity, or the risk of a false start, and be very happy to pedal a quarter of a turn or so (3-4 magnets) before her power is turned on...

Assist level is about how much power is supplied to the motor for each PAS level. -Al

 

[GenXrider]

But what does "PAS Sensitivity" or "assist level" actually mean?

5 to 24 is also a strange range. I'll play with the setting if I can find it on the Espin and see what the range of the numbers are.

Such a weird name for a setting.

You could test the assistance level setting from one extreme to another (64?) and see if it looks like it's the same thing as "assistant number" on the other displays, which is PAS sensitivity (the KD218 shows it set to 48 in my screenshot above).

 

[GenXrider]

It would appear to me that Espin is using more than 1 controller/display. That or I'm too stupid to figure out how to get to the screens shown above (post# 161). Our Flow has nothing like that, nor mention of anything like that in the supplied manual.

Is your display the same model as this one?

How to Change the # of PAS levels on Espin Flow and Sport - Manual Attached.

*** EDIT - I've attached the manual here for how to to it. See attachment. A little vague, but was able to set the PAS levels to 9 on the first try. Thanks @Taylor57 My understanding is there is a way (not documented in the instruction manual) to adjust the # of PAS levels on these bikes...

electricbikereview.com

 

[AHicks]

The display, when powered up, looks like that one. The difference, I believe, is illustrated best by the parameter flow chart on page 6 of that manual. The one I have starts at "Data Cleanup" but it ends at "Speed Limit Set". There's nothing beyond that.

 

[Taylor57]

It would appear to me that Espin is using more than 1 controller/display. That or I'm too stupid to figure out how to get to the screens shown above (post# 161). Our Flow has nothing like that, nor mention of anything like that in the supplied manual.

Yeah, you may have to use the password to unlock it in order to get to all the different applications

 

[BigNerd]

Because my non ebike is in the shop, I've been riding my Sport more often and I can definitely confirm that the cadence sensor indeed controls power output to the motor based on pedal speed.

My friend recently got another brand rear-hub bike and he confirmed the same thing. The slower he pedals, the more power the motor gets. He was confused because he thought if he pedaled faster he would get more PAS but now he slows his cadence to increase his ebike speed. His bike uses the Mahle ebikemotion X35 rear hub system.

 

[GenXrider]

The slower he pedals, the more power the motor gets. He was confused because he thought if he pedaled faster he would get more PAS but now he slows his cadence to increase his ebike speed.

Yeah, that's opposite of the cadence sensor assist system this guy designed. Where power is increased when pedaling faster.

 

[AHicks]

It's in the software, so they are not all alike (good or bad). There is NO universal software that's installed on all cadence based controllers.

 

[BigNerd]

I was also able to get to the “advanced settings”. Normally when you cycle through if you don’t enter 1919 at the PWd setting it will just start over.

Once you put in the password it will take you to SPd which is the top speed currently at 28mph. But, the settings after that are different from what’s in the manual posted here. The PAS level one is there so I can confirm you can go from 0-3 to 0-5 to 0-9 but the others are not the same as the manual. I will video it next time and compare.

 

[Taylor57]

I did a test yesterday on Sport just to see what PAS 1 min speed was when pedaling. It appears the slowest you can go in PAS 1 in 1st gear is around 8 MPH which is not very fast. I also clicked to PAS 0 and was able to ride even slower. I was on flat ground. I think went to my normal cruising speed of around 18 mph in PAS 3 and 8th gear for a very comfortable ride. I downshifted a few times on an uphill stretch (very slight grade) but found that PAS 3 or 4 and 8th gear is where I live...

 

[BET]

Yes, the seat is going bye bye. Not the bike. We both kinda like it! Worth the trouble of getting it sorted out for sure.

I've had several Cloud 9 seats. The last couple were the big, center vented, Lycra covered variety, and they're as nice as anything else I've been on, so we're sticking with them for the time being.

Is it speed based? If my first impression on a ride lasting around the block once is worth anything, my bet would be yes. Speed based. Complete with the big initial surge as the PAS engages. Wife mentioned she was ghost pedaling, not cool. She's an exercise nut and want's to contribute.

It LOOKS like there's clearance for bigger tires- bigger than the stock 1.95's. How much bigger yet to be determined for sure.

We went for a short ride ride after some initial messing around with the Flow, and the misses selected my old bike to do that with (the modified Rad City). That pretty much confirmed I have some work to do here....

Regarding the display/controller, we're going to ride this a bit to avoid a too hasty move. Like 50 miles or so. I see NOTHING in the owners manual regarding any advanced parameters (like the choice to go with additional PAS levels for instance). Same holds true going through the choices you can make with the display. -Al

There is a separate post on the manual for the display. It does have advance settings where you can change the number of PAS levels and other parameters. I think maybe Taylor posted it. The manual is not very user friendly but does match my display for my Sport purchased in Spring 2020. Your display may be different.

 

[Taylor57]

There is a separate post on the manual for the display. It does have advance settings where you can change the number of PAS levels and other parameters. I think maybe Taylor posted it. The manual is not very user friendly but does match my display for my Sport purchased in Spring 2020. Your display may be different.

 

[AHicks]

My display looked like the one you guys are talking about, but has a different number on the back. I questioned Espin about this, about why I wasn't able to access the more advanced settings, pretty much accusing them of bait and switch with a cheaper one that's less capable, even referencing the link that Taylor 57 shares. A week after sending my note, and a second request for information, they played stupid, as expected. They said, well hell, here's the entire exchange with my original note at the bottom. I was (am) so not impressed with their response, our bike is now equipped with a MUCH nicer display and a fully programmable KT-20a controller that we're really happy with.


Hello, Alan,

The manual you linked is for reconfiguring and programming the display, to work with the controller's specifications, which we've already done at the factory. Changing things like the overall speed of the bike will work, but trying to individually reconfigure each PAS setting in the display will only result in your bike malfunctioning.

At this point, you have a few different options:
- Accessing the password-protected section on the last page of the Display settings, and reducing the overall speed of the bike; since each PAS level is a percentage of that top speed, this will reduce the power going to the pedals.
- Starting off in a higher gear, so that the excess, undesired torque has more work to do, which should reduce the acceleration.

We can't assist you in more drastic changes to the controller or display hardware, and doing so on your own will blatantly void the warranty on your bike; however, if you wish to do so with assistance from the third-party forum you linked in your previous email, we can't stop you, and we wish you luck.

Thanks,
Henry
Espin Customer Support

On Sat, Feb 13, 2021, at 08:04 PM, Espin Electric Bikes <[email protected]> wrote:

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[OWG7Z6-G563]

On Sat, Feb 13, 2021, at 08:02 PM, Carol Swayze <[email protected]> wrote:

Thanks for getting back Henry. I really hope we can work something out.


My impression this bike could be changed/customized is based on a group of folks exchanging ideas here:

Espin Forum

Discuss the brand, its products and upcoming models.

electricbikereview.com

And specifically, within the manual shown here:

https://electricbikereview.com/forums/attachments/sport-display-manual-pdf.77571/

See the flow chart shown under "Parameter Setting" on page 6

Not looking for heavy customization. I fully understand what that looks like as I currently own bikes with KT controllers as well as a Bafang Ultra. Pretty familiar with what can be done with these.

What I'm interested in is a fix that cut's the power down to something more manageable while in PAS 1. Something low enough where I can contribute at lower speeds, rather than just "ghost pedaling".

I am super handy at this kind of thing. I don't scare easily when it comes to anything electrical. I would be really happy to install and try out something you are considering for future production.

When you speak of "reconstructing" for the new system you are considering, are you talking about going to a torque based system, with the need to install a torques sensor, or are you staying with a cadence only based system and pulling a new cable or something?

Al Hicks

In a message dated 2/13/2021 2:06:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, [email protected] writes:

Hello, Alan,

We're curious where you got the impression that the PAS levels are so heavily customizable - that's not a feature we offer on any of our bikes. It's something in the works, since many of our customers have requested the ability, but it's not something we've ever advertised our bikes as being capable of.

There is a password-protected settings page, but it doesn't have the expanded options you describe - simply the ability to adjust the overall maximum speed of the bike, by adjusting its Class (and since the Flow ships as a Class 2, the only available option would be to increase it to a Class 3, which would only exacerbate your problem).

Unfortunately, even if we had a controller with that capability, and the display to match, switching it out would require reconstructing it for your bike instead of the new models we plan on (eventually) installing them in. We're not sure how to help; what do you need from us?

On Sat, Feb 13, 2021, at 07:06 PM, Hello espin <[email protected]> wrote:

Hello, Alan,

We're curious where you got the impression that the PAS levels are so heavily customizable - that's not a feature we offer on any of our bikes. It's something in the works, since many of our customers have requested the ability, but it's not something we've ever advertised our bikes as being capable of.

There is a password-protected settings page, but it doesn't have the expanded options you describe - simply the ability to adjust the overall maximum speed of the bike, by adjusting its Class (and since the Flow ships as a Class 2, the only available option would be to increase it to a Class 3, which would only exacerbate your problem).

Unfortunately, even if we had a controller with that capability, and the display to match, switching it out would require reconstructing it for your bike instead of the new models we plan on (eventually) installing them in. We're not sure how to help; what do you need from us?

Thanks,

Henry

Espin Customer Support

On Fri, Feb 12, 2021, at 02:20 PM, Espin Electric Bikes <[email protected]> wrote:

##- Please type your reply above this line -##
Your request (6151) has been received and is being reviewed by our support staff.
To add additional comments, reply to this email.

This email is a service from Espin Electric Bikes. Delivered by Zendesk

[228M93-9647]

On Fri, Feb 12, 2021, at 02:18 PM, Carol Swayze <[email protected]> wrote:

Requesting the status of my questions sent 2/9?

Though it was received in perfect condition, I have a question about the display/controller operation.


I am NOT happy with the bike as received! This is my 5th e-bike and I find the available low speed control is terrible as received, with jerky PAS engagement, too much power when it does engage, to the point that I am just ghost pedaling (no effort required) at anything less than 10mph. In short, nothing like I was expecting.

My understanding was that the bike came with a display/controller with available parameters in the setup that would allow me to customize things like the number of PAS levels, slow start up, max current, and several other things. The display controller I received does not allow access to these parameters. Is there any chance I'm doing something wrong, or has Espin changed controllers to one with fewer customer set option/parameters?

What are my options at this point? Is the controller I was expecting available? If so, I'm quite capable of switching it out for the one received, and would be willing to return the original to Espin.

Alan Hicks

 

[GenXrider]

There is a separate post on the manual for the display. It does have advance settings where you can change the number of PAS levels and other parameters. I think maybe Taylor posted it. The manual is not very user friendly but does match my display for my Sport purchased in Spring 2020. Your display may be different.

Yeah, I had linked to the relevant post with the manual a few posts earlier in this thread:

Espin Flow pedal assist power levels

There is also a section to adjust the assist level but have no idea what it means because it only shows one screen: Maybe that's how much assist each level will give after you reach the speed limit at that level? Maybe I'll play with it. I mentioned that setting about a month ago in this...

electricbikereview.com

Al responded immediately afterwards that his is different. At least he was able to find an after-market controller and display that won't be so limited.

 

[GenXrider]

It's in the software, so they are not all alike (good or bad). There is NO universal software that's installed on all cadence based controllers.

Indeed, very different.

 

[BigNerd]

@GenXrider So I see you've received your 700 and have ridden it... how is the PAS?

I'm going to assume that it's similar to these other rear-hub bikes with a cadence sensor but you could tell us now how it actually is.

 

[GenXrider]

@GenXrider So I see you've received your 700 and have ridden it... how is the PAS?

I'm going to assume that it's similar to these other rear-hub bikes with a cadence sensor but you could tell us now how it actually is.

Yes, I was riding my new Ride1Up 700 today, and I was testing various PAS settings and the throttle today.

The pedal assist works exactly as I had understood it to work since Ride1Up reportedly moved from a speed based assist to a current/power based assist as per the interview with Kevin in June 2020 that I had previously linked to. It's very different from your experience with your Sport and from a Ride1Up 700 that was purchased in the first half of 2020 per a recent comparison review in the Ride1Up section of this forum.

Regardless of which assist level I choose from 1 to 9, from the time I start pedaling, power (watts) stays in the same range, although it does drop gradually as the battery voltage drops. So, for example, if I set a PAS level which is configured to 6%, and begin to pedal from a slow speed, the power reading will show 34, then 51, then 34, fluctuating from one to the other. Whether I ghost pedal, pedal lightly, pedal faster in a lower gear, pedal with high force to increase speed, or increase speed further while pedaling going down a small hill, as long as I am rotating the pedals, I see no difference in the way it alternates between 34 and 51. It just tries to maintain that same power regardless of the speed or cadence. The exception is if the bike gets up to 28 mph, then it will start dropping the power level. I didn't exceed that speed enough or long enough to see if it will drop power completely.

I'm going to tweak my power settings, as I fully expected I would. I had set PAS 1 to 3%, which shows 17 watts on the power indicator while riding. When riding along at 10+ mph with no assist, I don't even notice it when turning on PAS 1 with it set to 3%. If I get on a flat section of road and ghost pedal, it will roll me along at about 5 mph. So, that was too weak to be useful for my purposes. I'll bump it up to at least 5%. I tested 6% in PAS 2, which is noticeable yet light, and that would probably be fine for PAS 1, and I'll bump up PAS 2 to something higher. I had PAS 3 set to 12%, which was showing 99 to 115 watts, and I used that to ride up some hills, but I still had to shift down and put in quite a bit of effort. I'm wanting a good workout, but I still might bump up the assist power more for hills going forward since that was a big reason I wanted an e-bike.

After all I've read, one thing that surprised me was that using the throttle (throttle only, no pedaling), the bike powered me up to 28 mph. I tried it again a little later, and it got up to 27. The battery was lower the second attempt. I was expecting that with throttle only, it might top out around 20 to 22 mph, so I was surprised when the speed hit 24 and it continued to accelerate. I also confirmed the speedometer matched up pretty well with a GPS speed app.