Espin Flow pedal assist power levels

[cldlhd]

Got the Flow today (yes, on a Sunday!), perfect condition - they're actually double boxed!
It's assembled now and everything seems to be working fine, even the derailleur. Ride around the block shows there IS some work to do, and there IS a big jump from PAS1 to PAS2. Wife rode it and she's pretty sure she can get used to a few things, but the look on her face says this is going to take some riding and fiddling. Seat is like a rock for starters.... or we're spoiled. Take your pick. It's going bye bye...

1 Cloud 9 coming up....

So the jump from level 1 to 2 wasn't just me after all, good to know. yeah that the derailleur guard was bent on my son's to the point where it couldn't shift to the highest gear but I just met him back and adjusted everything. The seat is a bit stiff doesn't seem to bother him because he's 14 though

 

[Bubsdaddy]

Got the Flow today (yes, on a Sunday!), perfect condition - they're actually double boxed!
It's assembled now and everything seems to be working fine, even the derailleur. Ride around the block shows there IS some work to do, and there IS a big jump from PAS1 to PAS2. Wife rode it and she's pretty sure she can get used to a few things, but the look on her face says this is going to take some riding and fiddling. Seat is like a rock for starters.... or we're spoiled. Take your pick. It's going bye bye...

1 Cloud 9 coming up....

You are returning it? I’m new to ebikes and so is my wife but we both got the hang of it in our first hour of riding.

 

[Taylor57]

You are returning it? I’m new to ebikes and so is my wife but we both got the hang of it in our first hour of riding.

I think he meant the seat is going bye bye

 

[cldlhd]

You are returning it? I’m new to ebikes and so is my wife but we both got the hang of it in our first hour of riding.

As Taylor said I believe he was referring to the seat. I'm surprised that seat comfort isn't more of a priority seeing that a lot of the clientele for e-bikes is often a little older and your average bike rider probably goes a lot farther than with a traditional bicycle

 

[BigNerd]

No it's not. You never mentioned anything about ghost pedaling on level ground to establish a baseline PAS speed along with posting your specific power reading when doing so, and then pedaling with force under same conditions, and posting your specific power reading when doing so. That's the test you need to do. You did not do that. You made some vague comment about power dropping when you went faster, which sounds like speed based CAS, which is what people generally have complained about and Kevin didn't like. Read what I posted carefully. Your additional statements here also show you are not following what I'm saying. This isn't rocket science, so I'm trying to help. Let me explain further with some additional reference here.

I think you need to work on your conversational style, it makes assumptions and is actually kind of condescending... especially for someone who doesn't even own this particular ebike.

This is what I said:

I tested this on the Sport because one of the display settings is a P mode where it shows motor output (not sure if that number is watts or current or whatever) but it varies based on how hard/fast you are pedaling and maxes out at a different number for each PAS level.

So you are assuming I didn't do this under various conditions. Which I did... uphill, downhill and on flats. I didn't want to put all the details but I would hope you would give me more credit when I say "tested" doesn't mean I only did one test and that was it.

And I did not say "power dropped when *I* went faster"... what I did say was "the amount of power from the motor varied on how hard/fast I was pedaling"..

Pedaling cadence sensors work like an on off switch, not based on how fast or forceful your pedaling is. And no, cadence PAS systems are not all the same - that's what I'm trying to clarify as other have already done before. As mentioned by Kevin at this point in this interview https://youtu.be/9tFylNSFmCM?t=1331, they changed from speed to current (power factor) because power based cadence does NOT drop off power at a certain speed in any assist level as you said your Sport is doing in your vague details about what you tried.

I don't think you are right here. As Kevin said in the video, with cadence sensors, the amount of power available to the motor is limited by each PAS level, and how much power given to the motor depends on the speed of the cadence. Simply put, the slower you pedal, the more power, the faster you pedal the less power.

I read that Radbikes had made the same change from speed to power based assistance several years ago. See this post in this thread:

https://electricbikereview.com/foru...hrottle-only-as-well-as-pas.26022/post-171934

quote: "My 2016 Radrovers had the original programming with the motor cut-off per mph speed (PAS 1: 4 mph, PAS 2: 8 mph, ..Pas 5: 20 mph). Rad updated the controller in 2017 to the watts per PAS level.
PAS 0: 0 watts
PAS 1: 75 watts
PAS 2: 175 watts
PAS 3: 375 watts
PAS 4: 550 watts
PAS 5: 750 watts
The motor cut-off speed will be exactly the same for PAS 1-5 and throttle once you change it in the LCD screen. The Radcity motor will provide power while pedaling in PAS 1-5 until you reach 40 km/h if you are not using the throttle"

The above quote is saying exactly what I've been saying about cadence sensor "power" based PAS. The speed at which power is applied in any assist level is not limited by the power based PAS up to the legal limit of class 3 at 28 mph (or whatever max global speed limit is configured).

This is not different from how I'm saying it works on the Espin. Each PAS level has a max power cutoff (as I said in my original post). There may also be a speed cutoff where if you exceed a certain speed (not cadence speed), where the motor just puts out minimal power.

Let me go into more detail. On a flat surface, as you start pedaling slowly, the P number on my display goes up to 400, as I pedal faster, the P number goes down to like 80. I can hear the motor output more or less power based on how fast I'm pedaling... so that confirms that power output depends on cadence speed.

Now what about the speed limiter? Well, on a flat surface, when I hit 10mph, that number drops down to like 20. So how do I test if there is a speed limiter because at this point I am either pedaling so fast that the output is minimal or it's indeed a speed limit at PAS 1. Easy... I go downhill. Going downhill, at a speed over 10mph, changing the cadence of my pedaling does not change the P number past 20. The only thing that changes it is if I stop pedaling or pedal backwards, then the P number goes to 0. But if I pedal forward, even if it's "ghost pedaling", the number does not go above 20.

So there is a speed limit in the sense that it stop sending out more than a small amount of power when you exceed that speed, which makes sense because why output power if you're moving faster than that power level could move you.

Speed refers to the velocity of the bicycle. Power refers to the electrical "watts" used to provide assistance. There is some correlation, but speed is also affected by the rider's pedaling force, ground level, weight of rider, wind, rolling resistance, to name a few. But the big difference in the speed vs. power based systems is as clarified a few times already in that a speed based PAS at a given assist level drops off the power applied to the motor when it hits a specific speed, while with the Ride1Up bike and other power based PAS bikes, the power will NOT drop off at a specific speed in any assist level and will continue applying assistance as the rider pedals faster with force. So you will still get the PAS's power assistance regardless of speed or assist level until you hit the legal limit of 28 mph or configured global speed limit. There's still no clear evidence the Sport will do that or if it's speed limited PAS per assist level as I suspect, as the older Radrover bike described with the mph cutoffs per assist level.

I think we agree here in principal except that a cadence sensor is not just an on and off switch. The amount of power output at each PAS level is inversely proportional to the cadence of your pedaling.

In the case of Radpower, I don't get why it would still put out max power regardless of speed because isn't that just a waste? Unless there is something different in their cadence sensor control.

And hopefully what I explained repeatedly now and referenced to other info above explains again why that is NOT the case, and some providers of these bike have specifically made changes to move from operating in one way to the other. I don't know which method Espin uses, but I could find out easily if I had one. Hopefully someone with an Espin can actually test that.

Hopefully I gave you more details on my testing. And maybe my testing was flawed, but that's why I used that P number to help me determine how much the motor was putting out in relation to my cadence speed... not just my moving speed.

 

[cldlhd]

I think you need to work on your conversational style, it makes assumptions and is actually kind of condescending... especially for someone who doesn't even own this particular ebike.

This is what I said:



So you are assuming I didn't do this under various conditions. Which I did... uphill, downhill and on flats. I didn't want to put all the details but I would hope you would give me more credit when I say "tested" doesn't mean I only did one test and that was it.

And I did not say "power dropped when *I* went faster"... what I did say was "the amount of power from the motor varied on how hard/fast I was pedaling"..



I don't think you are right here. As Kevin said in the video, with cadence sensors, the amount of power available to the motor is limited by each PAS level, and how much power given to the motor depends on the speed of the cadence. Simply put, the slower you pedal, the more power, the faster you pedal the less power.



This is not different from how I'm saying it works on the Espin. Each PAS level has a max power cutoff (as I said in my original post). There may also be a speed cutoff where if you exceed a certain speed (not cadence speed), where the motor just puts out minimal power.

Let me go into more detail. On a flat surface, as you start pedaling slowly, the P number on my display goes up to 400, as I pedal faster, the P number goes down to like 80. I can hear the motor output more or less power based on how fast I'm pedaling... so that confirms that power output depends on cadence speed.

Now what about the speed limiter? Well, on a flat surface, when I hit 10mph, that number drops down to like 20. So how do I test if there is a speed limiter because at this point I am either pedaling so fast that the output is minimal or it's indeed a speed limit at PAS 1. Easy... I go downhill. Going downhill, at a speed over 10mph, changing the cadence of my pedaling does not change the P number past 20. The only thing that changes it is if I stop pedaling or pedal backwards, then the P number goes to 0. But if I pedal forward, even if it's "ghost pedaling", the number does not go above 20.

So there is a speed limit in the sense that it stop sending out more than a small amount of power when you exceed that speed, which makes sense because why output power if you're moving faster than that power level could move you.



I think we agree here in principal except that a cadence sensor is not just an on and off switch. The amount of power output at each PAS level is inversely proportional to the cadence of your pedaling.

In the case of Radpower, I don't get why it would still put out max power regardless of speed because isn't that just a waste? Unless there is something different in their cadence sensor control.



Hopefully I gave you more details on my testing. And maybe my testing was flawed, but that's why I used that P number to help me determine how much the motor was putting out in relation to my cadence speed... not just my moving speed.

Although I hate to get in the middle of this, I'll have to check my 700 series but I don't think as I pedal harder it puts out less power which I believe is what you are saying regarding the Espin. I always thought the cadence sensor on my 700 sensed how fast the crank was rotating and ADDED more power as it rotated faster. The assumption being that in whatever PAS level I'm in if I start pedaling faster I want to go faster

 

[BigNerd]

Although I hate to get in the middle of this, I'll have to check my 700 series but I don't think as I pedal harder it puts out less power which I believe is what you are saying regarding the Espin

That's what Kevin says in the video GenXRider posted above. Which makes sense to me, when you pedal slower, the motor needs to put out more power to help you get up to speed, and then once you are pedaling faster, it lowers that output.

Like when you start to go up a hill, you start to pedal slower (if you don't change gears)... so the motor will put out more power to help.

 

[cldlhd]

That's what Kevin says in the video GenXRider posted above. Which makes sense to me, when you pedal slower, the motor needs to put out more power to help you get up to speed, and then once you are pedaling faster, it lowers that output.

Like when you start to go up a hill, you start to pedal slower (if you don't change gears)... so the motor will put out more power to help.

That seems illogical to me. That would imply it had some sort of cruise control and it knew what speed I wanted to go . Like if I'm going 15 mph and I hit a hill and slow down the motor adds power to keep the pace But how does it know what speed I prefer at that moment? It would make more sense to me if I shifted to an easier to pedal gear and started pedaling a little faster then the motor when add power or it just hit the throttle or raised the PAS level.

 

[BigNerd]

This article from Evelo has a good explanation: https://evelo.com/blogs/learn/what-...ensor-and-a-torque-sensor-on-an-electric-bike

Pedal Assist Cadence Sensor​

For many cadence-based pedal assist systems, the electric bike’s motor is engaged when the rider begins to pedal forward.

As an example, the EVELO Delta X has five available levels of pedal assist or PAS. At each of these levels, the motor will provide a prescribed amount of power in response to a signal from the cadence sensor.


As the rider’s pedaling speed (cadence) increases the PAS will reduce the motor’s output.

Put another way, the motor produces a set amount of power when the pedal revolutions are relatively slow — for example when the rider is first starting out — as the pedal cadence and momentum increase, the motor’s power is reduced from 100 percent of the given PAS-level output target to about 70 percent of that target.

 

[BigNerd]

That seems illogical to me. That would imply it had some sort of cruise control and it knew what speed I wanted to go . Like if I'm going 15 mph and I hit a hill and slow down the motor adds power to keep the pace But how does it know what speed I prefer at that moment?

It doesn't know what speed you want to go, all it "knows" is that your pedal cadence slowed, so it increases power to the motor based on the PAS level.

It would make more sense to me if I shifted to an easier to pedal gear and started pedaling a little faster then the motor when add power or it just hit the throttle or raised the PAS level.

Before I actually owned an ebike, I thought the same thing,. That the cadence sensor meant that the faster I pedal, the more power I need... it's the opposite.

 

[GenXrider]

Got the Flow today (yes, on a Sunday!), perfect condition - they're actually double boxed!
It's assembled now and everything seems to be working fine, even the derailleur. Ride around the block shows there IS some work to do, and there IS a big jump from PAS1 to PAS2. Wife rode it and she's pretty sure she can get used to a few things, but the look on her face says this is going to take some riding and fiddling. Seat is like a rock for starters.... or we're spoiled. Take your pick. It's going bye bye...

1 Cloud 9 coming up....

I'm interested in your feedback on the things mentioned earlier - clearance and rims to support wider tires, and whether the cadence assistance is speed based or power based. Do you think you will stick with the included display and controller?

I know there are different Cloud9 seats/saddles. I switched from my Bev to a Cloud9 last summer, because thought I liked my previous Cloud9 seat better, so I got another Cloud9 of the same style, but I ended up not liking it was much I remembered, so after a few weeks of riding with the Cloud9, I put the Bev back on. lol Reference:

Please Suggest Most Comfortable Saddle

Couldn’t find it on the Selle Royal site. I have three models from 4-5 years ago. They do update and change model names. Google!

electricbikereview.com

Wish someone would do an indepth review on the 700

I got it hooked up and downloaded the program and installed the driver's successfully but it just keeps saying connection timed out when I try to install it. Got Kevin on the phone and he helped me try to get it sorted but it still wasn't working so he says they are going to send me a new...

electricbikereview.com

The Bev was more cushioned and had actual metal springs instead of those elastomer springs, and my Cloud9 had none. I know some Cloud9 seats at least have the elastomer ones. I do have the original Trek suspension seatpost, which I don't think is that good combined with my narrow 35c tires.

 

[GenXrider]

This article from Evelo has a good explanation: https://evelo.com/blogs/learn/what-...ensor-and-a-torque-sensor-on-an-electric-bike

You made a couple references to not believing that my description of how cadence sensors work is accurate, despite my references to info. This is from Juiced bikes:

There are two basic types of Pedal Sensors: CADENCE which measures IF you are pedaling and TORQUE which measures HOW HARD you are pedaling.

Cadence Sensors
The basic cadence sensor uses a magnet on the crank, it turns the motor ON when you start pedaling and turns it OFF when you stop pedaling. It works more or less like a switch.

Also see this thread that discusses the same thing.

Torque sensor vs Cadence...

I have just begun the daunting task of researching the different brands, models & technical features available on eBikes. (No small task, lol) My aim is to buy a bike (maybe two,) that has the features, performance, comfort, reliability & customer support that meets my needs. EBR YouTube videos...

electricbikereview.com

 

[GenXrider]

Now what about the speed limiter? Well, on a flat surface, when I hit 10mph, that number drops down to like 20. So how do I test if there is a speed limiter because at this point I am either pedaling so fast that the output is minimal or it's indeed a speed limit at PAS 1. Easy... I go downhill. Going downhill, at a speed over 10mph, changing the cadence of my pedaling does not change the P number past 20.

I'm not sure if you waited long enough with ghost pedaling for the bike to stop accelerating to get your baseline power reading before you vigorously pedaled to see the drop to 20. However, if I assume the 400 was your baseline once the bike stopped accelerating, and it dropped to 20 when you pedaled hard, then it does indeed sound like the Espin does have speed based PAS which drops the power at a certain speed, to about 20 on your reading. And that's exactly why these systems operate differently, not all the same as your suggested earlier. That's how Kevin described the old Ride1Up models and how those old RadRovers functioned. Now, they keep assisting at higher speeds. Hopefully Espin will change their system in the future as well.

So there is a speed limit in the sense that it stop sending out more than a small amount of power when you exceed that speed, which makes sense because why output power if you're moving faster than that power level could move you.

In the case of Radpower, I don't get why it would still put out max power regardless of speed because isn't that just a waste? Unless there is something different in their cadence sensor control.

OK, this is a key point, which explains why you made some of your earlier comments. If you are using X watts of power in a lower assist level that provides enough power to take the bike up to 15 mph while lightly pedaling, then you start pedaling with force to get up 20 mph, the X watts of power does NOT go to waste when you go from 15 mph or 20 mph under your added muscular energy. It still provides X watts of power assistance on top of what ever muscular power you supply, which was Kevin's point when he said he may want to pedal faster up to 25 mph without losing assistance. If the X watts were to drop off significantly at 15 mph, you would have to pedal much harder to get to 20 mph. So, the assist power doesn't go to waste on the power based assist bikes. Note, class 3 will drop power at 28 mph, but that's a global limit, not specific to either PAS.

Hopefully I gave you more details on my testing. And maybe my testing was flawed, but that's why I used that P number to help me determine how much the motor was putting out in relation to my cadence speed... not just my moving speed.

Yes, thanks, I think your additional detailed help, although, I would have liked clarification if the 400 number you saw was only during acceleration, or if that was what the bike leveled off at for at least several seconds for a baseline during ghost pedaling on flat ground before you started pedaling with force. If 400 refers to watts, that's pretty high for a low assist level, so I wonder if the bike was actually still accelerating when you saw 400. If it was the baseline the Sport maintained for several seconds after it stopped accelerating, then power dropped off only when you pedaled with force, that would imply the cadence PAS on the bike is indeed speed based. In any event, it's NOT the speed of your pedaling (ie. not your cadence) that is affecting the drop in power but rather the speed of the bike.

 

[BigNerd]

You made a couple references to not believing that my description of how cadence sensors work is accurate, despite my references to info. This is from Juiced bikes:

There are two basic types of Pedal Sensors: CADENCE which measures IF you are pedaling and TORQUE which measures HOW HARD you are pedaling.

Cadence Sensors
The basic cadence sensor uses a magnet on the crank, it turns the motor ON when you start pedaling and turns it OFF when you stop pedaling. It works more or less like a switch.

Also see this thread that discusses the same thing.

Torque sensor vs Cadence...

I have just begun the daunting task of researching the different brands, models & technical features available on eBikes. (No small task, lol) My aim is to buy a bike (maybe two,) that has the features, performance, comfort, reliability & customer support that meets my needs. EBR YouTube videos...

electricbikereview.com

Did you read the Evelo post? A cadence sensor can measure more than just *IF* you are pedaling, it can also measure how fast. That's what "cadence' means.

That thread is about cadence sensor vs torque sensor... that's not what we are talking about here. We are talking about how the cadence sensor controls how much power gets applied to the motor.

Your own post to Kevin's YouTube video details how their cadence sensor works... paraphrased... the slower you pedal, the more power you get, the faster you pedal, the less power you get.

It's not just a switch... it's more than that... it's also power output control. I proved that by monitoring the P number in different scenarios and how pedaling faster or slower changed the P number on my display.

I'm not sure if you understand that a cadence sensor actually measures cadence and applies power as needed (inverse to speed of cadence).

 

[GenXrider]

I was hoping AHicks would give his experience with the Espin so that we could have a definitive answer on whether it's speed vs. power cadence PAS as he has a good understanding of how the systems differ, as he noted here:

Torque sensor vs Cadence...

I have just begun the daunting task of researching the different brands, models & technical features available on eBikes. (No small task, lol) My aim is to buy a bike (maybe two,) that has the features, performance, comfort, reliability & customer support that meets my needs. EBR YouTube videos...

electricbikereview.com

I had to make an assumption about baseline power in Big Nerd's post that would imply it's speed based if that assumption is correct.

 

[AHicks]

I'm interested in your feedback on the things mentioned earlier - clearance and rims to support wider tires, and whether the cadence assistance is speed based or power based. Do you think you will stick with the included display and controller?

I know there are different Cloud9 seats/saddles. I switched from my Bev to a Cloud9 last summer, because thought I liked my previous Cloud9 seat better, so I got another Cloud9 of the same style, but I ended up not liking it was much I remembered, so after a few weeks of riding with the Cloud9, I put the Bev back on. lol Reference:

Please Suggest Most Comfortable Saddle

Couldn’t find it on the Selle Royal site. I have three models from 4-5 years ago. They do update and change model names. Google!

electricbikereview.com

Wish someone would do an indepth review on the 700

I got it hooked up and downloaded the program and installed the driver's successfully but it just keeps saying connection timed out when I try to install it. Got Kevin on the phone and he helped me try to get it sorted but it still wasn't working so he says they are going to send me a new...

electricbikereview.com

The Bev was more cushioned and had actual metal springs instead of those elastomer springs, and my Cloud9 had none. I know some Cloud9 seats at least have the elastomer ones. I do have the original Trek suspension seatpost, which I don't think is that good combined with my narrow 35c tires.

Yes, the seat is going bye bye. Not the bike. We both kinda like it! Worth the trouble of getting it sorted out for sure.

I've had several Cloud 9 seats. The last couple were the big, center vented, Lycra covered variety, and they're as nice as anything else I've been on, so we're sticking with them for the time being.

Is it speed based? If my first impression on a ride lasting around the block once is worth anything, my bet would be yes. Speed based. Complete with the big initial surge as the PAS engages. Wife mentioned she was ghost pedaling, not cool. She's an exercise nut and want's to contribute.

It LOOKS like there's clearance for bigger tires- bigger than the stock 1.95's. How much bigger yet to be determined for sure.

We went for a short ride ride after some initial messing around with the Flow, and the misses selected my old bike to do that with (the modified Rad City). That pretty much confirmed I have some work to do here....

Regarding the display/controller, we're going to ride this a bit to avoid a too hasty move. Like 50 miles or so. I see NOTHING in the owners manual regarding any advanced parameters (like the choice to go with additional PAS levels for instance). Same holds true going through the choices you can make with the display. -Al

 

[BigNerd]

I'm not sure if you waited long enough with ghost pedaling for the bike to stop accelerating to get your baseline power reading before you vigorously pedaled to see the drop to 20. However, if I assume the 400 was your baseline once the bike stopped accelerating, and it dropped to 20 when you pedaled hard, then it does indeed sound like the Espin does have speed based PAS which drops the power at a certain speed, to about 20 on your reading. And that's exactly why these systems operate differently, not all the same as your suggested earlier. That's how Kevin described the old Ride1Up models and how those old RadRovers functioned. Now, they keep assisting at higher speeds. Hopefully Espin will change their system in the future as well.

This is really one of those "you need to own the bike to actually comment on it" moments. You are still not understanding how I tested. There is no reason why if I'm moving at 18mph in PAS 1 (which has a limit of 10mph) that is should assist at whatever its top power is at PAS 1. If I'm over 10mph, that means I am either going downhill or pedaling at a pace that is above the power assist at PAS 1 so why waste watts?

OK, this is a key point, which explains why you made some of your earlier comments. If you are using X watts of power in a lower assist level that provides enough power to take the bike up to 15 mph while lightly pedaling, then you start pedaling with force to get up 20 mph, the X watts of power does NOT go to waste when you go from 15 mph or 20 mph under your added muscular energy. It still provides X watts of power assistance on top of what ever muscular power you supply, which was Kevin's point when he said he may want to pedal faster up to 25 mph without losing assistance. If the X watts were to drop off significantly at a specific speed, you would have to pedal much harder to get to 20 mph. So, the assist power doesn't go to waste on the power based assist bikes. Note, class 3 will drop power at 28 mph, but that's a global limit, not specific to either PAS.

That's not how a cadence sensor works. That is more like how a torque sensor works.

If you want to go faster, you raise the PAS level... it's that simple. Like I said, if you can get to 18mph while on PAS 1, that means you don't need the assist because you are generating more power than the output level at PAS 1. Think of it like an analog bike, you are going downhill but pedaling doesn't increase your speed because you are in a lower gear... so what do you do? Go up a gear so that you go faster... it's the same concept.

Yes, I think your additional detailed helped, although, I would have liked clarification if the 400 number you saw was only during acceleration, or if that was what the bike leveled off at for at least several seconds for a baseline during ghost pedaling on flat ground before you started pedaling with force. If it was the baseline the Sport maintained for several seconds after it stopped accelerating, then power dropped off only when you pedaled with force, that would imply the cadence PAS on the bike is indeed speed based.

The 400 number was when I was initially started pedaling and goes lower as I pedal faster... if I pedal slower, the number goes back up. On a flat surface, you will only ghost pedal if your gear is lower than power assist which makes sense because you are pedaling at a cadence that minimizes the power output. So again, raise the gear which results in slower pedaling (like going up a hill) and then the power goes back up. I also observed this on a flat surface by changing gears it also affects the P number because my cadence changes.

I think you keep using force which isn't really part of this equation because cadence doesn't necessarily measure force although it feels like it.

Let's use the flat to uphill scenario. You are pedaling at a steady pace and then you hit the incline, what happens if you are not changing gears? Your cadence slows right? And it feels like your are putting more "force" on the pedals because it's harder to pedal uphill but the cadence sensor just says "oh, pedaling slower... increase power". The result is instead of moving up a hill at a slower speed you actually stay the same speed with a slower cadence.

Not sure if this is making sense... you really have to see the power output to understand it because after I read the Evelo article and hearing Kevin's comments, that's why I tested this (and it is inline with both explanations).

 

[BigNerd]

@AHicks and @GenXrider

What does "speed based" or "power based" mean when you are referring to a cadence sensor? This is what I originally questioned.

Based on what I've read, this seems to be a blurry distinction because I feel that it uses both, a power level limit at each PAS level and a speed limit to determine when to stop providing power at each level.

 

[AHicks]

@AHicks and @GenXrider

What does "speed based" or "power based" mean when you are referring to a cadence sensor? This is what I originally questioned.

Based on what I've read, this seems to be a blurry distinction because I feel that it uses both, a power level limit at each PAS level and a speed limit to determine when to stop providing power at each level.

Nothing.
Speed vs. power based is ALL about the controller's software (programming). The hardware, one vs. the other (including the cadence sensor) is identical.

 

[GenXrider]

Yes, the seat is going bye bye. Not the bike. We both kinda like it! Worth the trouble of getting it sorted out for sure.

I've had several Cloud 9 seats. The last couple were the big, center vented, Lycra covered variety, and they're as nice as anything else I've been on, so we're sticking with them for the time being.

Is it speed based? If my first impression on a ride lasting around the block once is worth anything, my bet would be yes. Speed based. Complete with the big initial surge as the PAS engages. Wife mentioned she was ghost pedaling, not cool. She's an exercise nut and want's to contribute.

It LOOKS like there's clearance for bigger tires- bigger than the stock 1.95's. How much bigger yet to be determined for sure.

We went for a short ride ride after some initial messing around with the Flow, and the misses selected my old bike to do that with (the modified Rad City). That pretty much confirmed I have some work to do here....

Regarding the display/controller, we're going to ride this a bit to avoid a too hasty move. Like 50 miles or so. I see NOTHING in the owners manual regarding any advanced parameters (like the choice to go with additional PAS levels for instance). Same holds true going through the choices you can make with the display. -Al

The big initial surge you mentioned seems to line up with the 400 figure the Big Nerd gave. He was supposed to test baseline per my earlier post, but it ends up that was the surge when starting to pedal, which explains your experience. I'm not surprised at all that it's speed based. Thanks for the feedback.