e-RAD battery maintenance

[pocomo]

I'm new. I searched around a bit (not knowing the best terms to search) but did not find very much on this topic on the site. Regarding charging:

1. Is it best to 'top up' as often as possible? I know it's bad to let the battery drop much below 20%, but with my short commute in PAS mode I doubt I'll be dropping much below 75% on a daily basis. Should I plan to charge just once per day? Should I top up at both ends of the commute?
   
   
2. Is it worth it to invest in a Cycle Satiator (http://www.ebikes.ca/product-info/cycle-satiator.html) to try and keep the battery at around 80% max charge? This supposedly doubles the number of charge cycles the panasonic 18650 cells can handle. I understand that the Tesla battery management software aims to keep total charge well under 100% when possible.

I'm also thinking that even if my battery pack only lasts 18 - 24 months (with minimal 'special' care, no $300 Satiator) that in 2+ years the latest batteries will be denser and more reliable than what we have now.

Love to hear your thoughts.

 

[pocomo]

Chris, this is exactly what I was hoping to hear - real world experience & knowledge boiled down to simple advice. Thank you very much!

 

[Greg H.]

Chris - Can you also chime in on battery charging rates and the effect they may have on an e-rad battery? - charging at 2 amp, 5 amp, etc. ?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Jack Tyler]

@Link Removed, you may have missed Greg's question (just above) since it wasn't @ddressed to you. I'd be interested in your A to his Q as well.

BTW letting Court run around in your shop like a school kid on recess produced one of the most informative video reviews I've found here...and boy, have I now watched a lot of them! Thanks for letting him approach it that way, as it seemed to perfectly fit what your ebike 'niche' appears to be: e-kits for bikes but with customizing always an option.

Jack

 

[Chris Head]

@Jack Tyler @Greg H.
Our 48v 9ah 48v 11ah and 48v 14ah Charge at very similar rates. 48v 11ah batteries charge 70% in about 1.5hrs with full charge taking about 4.5hrs at 2amp. 48v 9ah is probably closer to 1hr and 4hrs respectively and 48v 14ah around 2hrs and 5hrs. The difference between 70% and 100% is due to the fact that as batteries become more energy dense they charge slower and more time is dedicated to balancing the cells to make sure they are equally charged. Our BMS is top of the line so it does a very efficient job of cell balance. Our 48v 20ah battery would take up to 9hrs to charge full at 2amp so we provide a 5amp charger with that battery to cut that time in half. With the use of a programmable charger like the Grin Tech Satiator you can speed up the charge to 5amp on any battery when necessary (our plugs at this time can not go above 5amp but the Satiator is capable of more). You can also charge to 80% for shorter rides and trickle charge at 1 amp when there is no need to rush. Both of these practices can dramatically extend to life of the battery. On the smaller batteries you should not make a habit of fast charging and only use it when necessary. Batteries also charge better at room temperature. The BMS also cuts off the battery at low voltage when riding and high voltage when charging to prevent over charge and over discharge. Glad you liked the video that Court did. It was relly not planned to be that long but obviously I had a lot to say and Court had a lot of questions. It was the first one that was that long. Justin from Grin Tech has a great video too. He is easily one of the most intelligent people in this industry and we respect him and his company a great deal. If you have not watched it you should. It well over one hour so you might watch it in 2 parts but you will come out with a masters in battery technology. We will be selling the Satiator on our site soon

 

[Jack Tyler]

@Chris Head you are so right about the 'shop wander' and interview between Court & Justin. Watched it a few weeks ago with great pleasure. Court labeled it a 'deep dive' and there was some of that, but the creativity that flows from Justin is as much a marvel as his technical knowledge. To the Community here, I encourage you to find the time to view it. And thanks for the detail on your different batteries, Chris. I really respect the approach you are taking.

 

[Chris Head]

I'm new. I searched around a bit (not knowing the best terms to search) but did not find very much on this topic on the site. Regarding charging:

1. Is it best to 'top up' as often as possible? I know it's bad to let the battery drop much below 20%, but with my short commute in PAS mode I doubt I'll be dropping much below 75% on a daily basis. Should I plan to charge just once per day? Should I top up at both ends of the commute?
   
   
2. Is it worth it to invest in a Cycle Satiator (http://www.ebikes.ca/product-info/cycle-satiator.html) to try and keep the battery at around 80% max charge? This supposedly doubles the number of charge cycles the panasonic 18650 cells can handle. I understand that the Tesla battery management software aims to keep total charge well under 100% when possible.

I'm also thinking that even if my battery pack only lasts 18 - 24 months (with minimal 'special' care, no $300 Satiator) that in 2+ years the latest batteries will be denser and more reliable than what we have now.

Love to hear your thoughts.

I want to revise my earlier statement concerning the Satiator. We have done some testing here now and upon talking to the guys from Grin at Interbike the Satiator does offer some great advantages when used with our battery. The abilty to trickle charge at 1 amp over night and short charging does have positive effects on our batteries and can extend cycle life a great deal. I would avoid fast charging with it unless absolutely necessary. We are always learning I and i will be the first to admit when I am mistaken.

 

[Jack Tyler]

@Chris Head, you weren't mistaken...you're just climbing the learning curve like the rest of us. Even tho' I'm pretty new to this fledgling USA industry, it's clear to me it is very dynamic. Today's certain knowledge is going to be tomorrow's swiss cheese.

 

[tomjasz]

Remember to overnight those charges to 100%. Most systems commonly available need that to balance the entire pack. I like 2A especially with a 13.5 or larger pack. A good long balancing session.

 

[Marcus]

I have attached our owners manual which talks about battery care but here is my feed back. It is fine to discharge the battery fully while riding( you do not want to leave a battery on the shelf for months after discharging it on a ride but it is not as susceptible to over discharge as other batteries). Our BMS system in the battery prevents over discharge. It is also fine to charge the battery full after each use. The BMS prevents over charge. We use the Panasonic 18650 cell (Same as Tesla) and it is rated at 1000 cycles +75% of original capacity. This cell often exceeds this rating. The 18650 cell is also not susceptible to heat and cold like lipo batteries or other inferior chemistry. Think about a Tesla being sold in hot or cold climates. Topping it off on both ends of commute is good. We are testing a cell now that is more energy dense and plan on offering it for sale in the fall. It is the next generation of the 18650 and will allow us to offer 48v 13ah and 36v 16ah is our new slimmer case (pictured in review) I have 2 of each pre-production batteries that I am will to sell today for $1000. If you are an early adopter you can get your hands on it now, not a couple years or even the fall.
As far as the Satiator, it is not useful with a cell of our quality. With lipo batteries that have a 250 to 350 cycle life it can be helpful to charge to say 80% to extend life for hobby use (RC cars and planes). Consider this, if you charge to 80% on an e-bike then you are only getting 80% of the mileage. So if you get even 1500 cycles the reduced mileage does not work out. Full charge and discharge gets you maximum mileage and there fore maximum use of the battery. On e-bikes you have to think more in terms of mileage and not cycle life. Our batteries have the best cells/BMS available so you get the most bang for your buck, least amount of hassle and best performance. When people ask why they are so expensive I tell them that superior technology in batteries offers you the best value because they last longer. When the mileage added up you pay less per mile for my battery then any other. You can take that to the bank! When you read things on the internet forums you often get people that have no experience with real quality cells. Our company, Allcell and a few others actual offer top quality technology.

Hey Chris, Marcus here from Bills Cyclery. My battery now has 6500 miles on it. Is it near the end of its life cycle?

I'm asking because now when it is low on battery I can the battery kicking in and out while riding. Is this normal?

 

[Marcus]

Hey Chris Marcus here again. So my erad has 6,758 miles on it. I just checked.

Is it time to order a new one?

 

[Chris Head]

Battery life cycle has less to do with mileage and more to do with cycles. A cycle is when you charge the battery from dead to ful. The battery is rated for 750 to 1000 cycles. If you describe your avg range you get by the miles you will get an idea of how many cycles the battery has. Kicking in and out you describe is normal at or near low voltage cutoff even with a new battery. Give me a call to discuss. Cal my cell 602 573 2998. I will be in Minneapolis for the e-bike expo next month. You and Bill should come see us. (Link Removed - No Longer Exists)

 

[tomjasz]

Gosh I hope that paragraph on the Satiator not being an appropriate choice gets removed. It startled me when I read it, and thought it was a recent comment. I read the correction with a HUGE sigh of relief. I hate to see that quoted again and potentially misread!!!

 

[tomjasz]

Battery life cycle has less to do with mileage and more to do with cycles. A cycle is when you charge the battery from dead to ful. The battery is rated for 750 to 1000 cycles. If you describe your avg range you get by the miles you will get an idea of how many cycles the battery has. Kicking in and out you describe is normal at or near low voltage cutoff even with a new battery. Give me a call to discuss. Cal my cell 602 573 2998. I will be in Minneapolis for the e-bike expo next month. You and Bill should come see us. (Link Removed - No Longer Exists)

HEY MPLS!!!! 110 miles away!!!! I guess I'm on a road trip!!!Email please!!!

 

[Chris Head]

Gosh I hope that paragraph on the Satiator not being an appropriate choice gets removed. It startled me when I read it, and thought it was a recent comment. I read the correction with a HUGE sigh of relief. I hate to see that quoted again and potentially misread!!!

Removed. Thanks for the reminder Tom

 

[Marcus]

Battery life cycle has less to do with mileage and more to do with cycles. A cycle is when you charge the battery from dead to ful. The battery is rated for 750 to 1000 cycles. If you describe your avg range you get by the miles you will get an idea of how many cycles the battery has. Kicking in and out you describe is normal at or near low voltage cutoff even with a new battery. Give me a call to discuss. Cal my cell 602 573 2998. I will be in Minneapolis for the e-bike expo next month. You and Bill should come see us. (Link Removed - No Longer Exists)

So we have come to the conclusion that it's not the battery that's causing the lag while using pedal assist.

Can something be wrong with the pedal assist?

 

[Chris Head]

So we have come to the conclusion that it's not the battery that's causing the lag while using pedal assist.

Can something be wrong with the pedal assist?

Call me Marcus, in our last conversation we did not talk about "lag" in the PAS to my knowledge. Only that the battery was sagging at the bottom of it's charge cycle. 702 444 7474