e-bike battery prices are not coming down

[AHicks]

I wouldn't know about battery construction and the BMS even if they knocked on my front door and offered me a case of toilet paper.

It's like a lot of things, you take it a little piece at a time, and eventually it all starts to click as one. That's assuming you are interested enough to want to know more about them. Trust me, I get that. You can't know everything there is about everything. Most of us have the privilege of doing some picking and choosing, and trusting others to make some calls for us. That's what I was thinking of regarding buying from trusted suppliers. -Al

 

[Alex M]

In battery documentation that comes with a bike, there is (typically) none or very little info on BMS particulars.

Probably wouldn't make a difference to majority of consumers, since basics of electricity is not something they teach you in secondary-high school. Not that it's impossible to learn on your own, at least within a limited scope of ebike troubleshooting.

 

[Chancelucky2]

Unfortunately, e-bike batteries have taken a very similar path to laptop batteries. For a variety of reasons, instead of agreeing on some standard configurations, the industry went proprietary.
In the case of laptops, it even went non-user-replaceable in many cases.
One result is that it often makes more sense to buy a new laptop once your battery dies than it does to replace your battery. I hope that doesn't happen with e-bikes. I do think it's crazy that
a second battery can be close to half the retail cost of your bike.

I'd love to see some attempt at some sort of standardization (maybe a maximum of 10 formats) and some sort of rental or exchange infrastructure. I currently have a second battery, but 95% of the time I really don't need the second battery. I could see the big 4 maybe coming to some sort of agreement to insist on a common battery format. For instance, I could rent a battery at a Trek dealer and exchange it at some town 40-50 miles down the road for a full charged battery at the local Trek dealer instead of lugging an extra 6 pound battery with me. If that were expanded to any Big 4 LBS, it becomes a very big network. The system might also be a great way to gather data for future design improvements.

 

[steve mercier]

LOL.. Electriccyclery.com has one for $800... Maybe 750 is too low

Here Giant Canada is out of stock ( sidemounting ) for at least 10 weeks so I would grab it now while you can.

 

[DDBB]

Every time you take a ride, drop a dollar in a big jar. You'll have a great start on affording a new battery when the time is due. I have 3,800 miles on my Haibike Trekking. 75% of my rides are a 10 mile loop through the city. That's around 285 trips. The other trips average around 20 miles, so another 47 trips. That's $332 towards the next battery. No degrade on the battery that I notice yet.

I tried doing this and my wife took all the money out of the jar and bought new shoes

 

[Browneye]

Li-on in these ebike packs are a completely different animal than li-polymer. This latter chemistry is more flammable/explosive on an order of magnitude. Li-ion are relatively stable. Just use the charger it came with, and don’t drop it.
You’ll be fine.

 

[Asher]

Routinely catching fire? Risk of injury, death, and property damage?

Please document your view of this problem, but make sure you put it into proper perspective. Like user hours per incident for instance. I think we all already acknowledge the potential, that it happens occasionally.

Lightening strikes and snake bites likely happen more often than battery issues, and I don't worry about that potential much.

BUT, to each their own level of comfort. Do as you like. -Al

300 People Evacuated During Fire in Stella's E-Bike Battery Warehouse

NUNSPEET, the Netherlands - It is known that e-bike batteries do pose a risk of fire, but when a full e-bike warehouse goes up in flames you have a serious problem. Last Tuesday some 300 people living in the vicinity of the Stella e-bike and battery warehouse which was on fire had to be...

www.bike-eu.com

Lyft halts San Francisco e-bike program after bicycles catch fire

Decision to temporarily pull bikes comes nearly two months after ride sharing company launched its fleet in the city

www.google.com

Lime is the latest micromobility startup to be rocked by battery fires

Video of an ignited Lime Bike in Seattle surfaced on Reddit not long after a fire broke out in the company's warehouse.

www.google.com

Dutch E-Bike Brand Stella 'Startled' After Third Fire In Seven Months

Dutch e-bike brand suffers another fire, with 36 bikes destroyed, while in Australia an electric bike motor caught fire as the rider was climbing a steep hill, leaving the carbon composite bike a "molten mess."

www.google.com

Underrated E-Bike Battery Fire Hazards Call for Attention on Safe Storage

DOETINCHEM, the Netherlands - Concerns over Lithium-Ion batteries exist for a long time already. However, due to what recently happened at a Dutch dealer where an e-bike battery spontaneously caught fire causing severe damages is increasing such worries. It's high time to turn to a fire safety...

www.bike-eu.com

I must be imagining it since you don't like what I'm saying.

 

[AHicks]

300 People Evacuated During Fire in Stella's E-Bike Battery Warehouse

NUNSPEET, the Netherlands - It is known that e-bike batteries do pose a risk of fire, but when a full e-bike warehouse goes up in flames you have a serious problem. Last Tuesday some 300 people living in the vicinity of the Stella e-bike and battery warehouse which was on fire had to be...

www.bike-eu.com

Lyft halts San Francisco e-bike program after bicycles catch fire

Decision to temporarily pull bikes comes nearly two months after ride sharing company launched its fleet in the city

www.google.com

Lime is the latest micromobility startup to be rocked by battery fires

Video of an ignited Lime Bike in Seattle surfaced on Reddit not long after a fire broke out in the company's warehouse.

www.google.com

Dutch E-Bike Brand Stella 'Startled' After Third Fire In Seven Months

Dutch e-bike brand suffers another fire, with 36 bikes destroyed, while in Australia an electric bike motor caught fire as the rider was climbing a steep hill, leaving the carbon composite bike a "molten mess."

www.google.com

Underrated E-Bike Battery Fire Hazards Call for Attention on Safe Storage

DOETINCHEM, the Netherlands - Concerns over Lithium-Ion batteries exist for a long time already. However, due to what recently happened at a Dutch dealer where an e-bike battery spontaneously caught fire causing severe damages is increasing such worries. It's high time to turn to a fire safety...

www.bike-eu.com

I must be imagining it since you don't like what I'm saying.

Nope, our levels of paranoid are just miles apart. As mentioned, I know there are/have been issues (why do you think you can't put a battery like this on an airplane for instance?). Just like snake bites and lightening strikes, if you want to live in fear of something like that, go for it. Just not my thing.... Not with all the laptops, phones and other battery operated "stuff" millions of people use every day. Plus, there are options. Take a minute and look into LiFe batteries for instance. They do a great job on e-bikes, and if you look around, they're available.

 

[Asher]

Nope, our levels of paranoid are just miles apart. As mentioned, I know there are/have been issues (why do you think you can't put a battery like this on an airplane for instance?). Just like snake bites and lightening strikes, if you want to live in fear of something like that, go for it. Just not my thing.... Not with all the laptops, phones and other battery operated "stuff" millions of people use every day. Plus, there are options. Take a minute and look into LiFe batteries for instance. They do a great job on e-bikes, and if you look around, they're available.

Phones and laptops are made by billion dollar companies that test devices. And even those occasionally fail.

Budget ecigs aren't. And they've killed people by exploding. You want to take chances because you want to tinker. Your choice but not one to recommend to others.

 

[Asher]

Unfortunately, e-bike batteries have taken a very similar path to laptop batteries. For a variety of reasons, instead of agreeing on some standard configurations, the industry went proprietary.
In the case of laptops, it even went non-user-replaceable in many cases.
One result is that it often makes more sense to buy a new laptop once your battery dies than it does to replace your battery. I hope that doesn't happen with e-bikes. I do think it's crazy that
a second battery can be close to half the retail cost of your bike.

I'd love to see some attempt at some sort of standardization (maybe a maximum of 10 formats) and some sort of rental or exchange infrastructure. I currently have a second battery, but 95% of the time I really don't need the second battery. I could see the big 4 maybe coming to some sort of agreement to insist on a common battery format. For instance, I could rent a battery at a Trek dealer and exchange it at some town 40-50 miles down the road for a full charged battery at the local Trek dealer instead of lugging an extra 6 pound battery with me. If that were expanded to any Big 4 LBS, it becomes a very big network. The system might also be a great way to gather data for future design improvements.

It seems like standardization only happens when either there's some bigger force mandating it or standardizing offers profits. Neither seems to be the case, not immediately anyway.

But I'm hoping small bike brands flourish and settle on open solutions to help open standards proliferate.

 

[Chancelucky2]

It seems like standardization only happens when either there's some bigger force mandating it or standardizing offers profits. Neither seems to be the case, not immediately anyway.

But I'm hoping small bike brands flourish and settle on open solutions to help open standards proliferate.

It may be a while before we see LInux E-bikes :}

 

[tomjasz]

The dangers of 18650 cells can be mitigated in two ways. Charged in an ammo can be modified for charging of budget packs with B flat construction. Inexpensive BMS and nickel-coated steel for connections and insufficient connections can create power bottlenecks and result in hot spots. These days there are many choices in budget packs. Some are a good bet but many are a gamble. Most OEM batteries, from makers like Bosch have BMS with safety features and superior construction. We're seeing Bosch system with 10,000 miles on the original battery. That's 8 cents a mile minimum. I have a couple of batteries that were purchased from UPP. Less than 2000 miles and 4 years that now sag like heck my cost is about double that of Bosch batteries.

A $600 to $700 battery with cell level fusing and smart BMS is the other option. I have both but still choose monitored charging in a safety enclosure. IME that Bosch or other can bus batteries are superior builds. I’m a kit builder and think EM3ev batteries (but I support them for another reseller) are a good battery build but sadly aren’t able to be paired with Bosch and their similar brands.

 

[tomjasz]

may be a while before we see LInux E-bikes :}

What? Look again. Google eBikes.ca Linux. Enjoy!

 

[indianajo]

Unfortunately, e-bike batteries have taken a very similar path to laptop batteries. For a variety of reasons, instead of agreeing on some standard configurations, the industry went proprietary.
In the case of laptops, it even went non-user-replaceable in many cases.

Patented connectors are a known cash cow in the replacement parts industry. Once a OEM vendor has a part that requires a patent to reproduce, then he can charge 4x what everybody else is charging. True in gas hoses for Dodge Neon's - their hose was $65 and had to be flown in from Atlanta, Ford Fiesta's generic gas hose was $20 and in downtown Louisville. True for earphones for Apple phones - price an earphone for an Apple phone sometime. Generic are $2. True for bike batteries.
I bought a generic battery from luna, using a XT6 connector available for $8 for 4. I could have bought a specially designed Bosch battery for their mid-drive on the bodaboda. About twice as much, and has to be driven peronally in a car to Colorado 1000 miles to get it rebuilt, no shops closer than that.

 

[tomjasz]

Patented connectors are a known cash cow in the replacement parts industry. Once a OEM vendor has a part that requires a patent to reproduce, then he can charge 4x what everybody else is charging.

But you and I are a very different market. I have two 36v 11ah Dolphin case batteries from two different resellers in 2014. Lectric and EM3ev. My recent EM3ev was about the same or a bit less for 17ah and a vastly improved design. I used to build my own Windoze computers but now choose the pricey but better performance of Apple. I’ll still purchase budget bAtteries and use my battery safe just because I like having loaner bike for friends. I just gave away a KHS Smoothie TSDZ2 with a 13ah 29e Dolphin given to me and stored for more than 2 years at50%. Its saggy for a BBSHD , but quite robust for the power stingy TSDZ.

bottom line from my view batteries haven’t gone up much if you look at the AH provided. And some better battery builders or have a budget builder up the build quality.

one builder has had a number of fires. User error but they lacked safety feature of many OEM (Bosch) batteries.

a shame you were ripped off. Fortunately I bought my batteries with wide open eyes kit builder feedback on endless sphere

 

[tomjasz]

Take a minute and look into LiFe batteries for instance. They do a great job on e-bikes, and if you look around, they're available.

Great batteries but to get 17Ah we get a very heavy battery. Perfect for trikes, IMO!

Budget batteries definitely have more issues. The most prevalent issue is the $5 BMS and pushing out more than 20A with bottlenecked connections. Shortage protection is an issue with beginner builders and self-repair fellas. Many packs are built with glued cells to pack more Ah rather than using cell holders to give a little separation.

 

[AHicks]

Admittedly heavier, but my experience would have them maybe just 20% or so. Just a WAG, but thinking a 10 lb LiPo, all else being equal, might weigh 12 lbs in a LiFe. Not that big a deal for most of us - especially where there is a big concern over the danger of running something like this. -Al

 

[antboy]

Phones and laptops are made by billion dollar companies that test devices. And even those occasionally fail.

Budget ecigs aren't. And they've killed people by exploding...

Just gotta chime in on this myth (though it IS kind of a tangent).

The VAST majority of "exploding e-cigs" are actually improperly stored/treated 18650s (mostly the same Samsung/LGs used in e-bikes) and less frequently DUE - Dreaded User Error - when using a mechanical mod (which doesn't have a any electronics to regulate it).

Essentially most of the side of an 18650 is all negative, so if the wrap is damaged, it's very easy to complete a circuit in your pocket/purse if you have keys/coins in there. Same thing with the rare instances where someone didn't properly build a mech mod, or used an RDA with no protruding pin at the bottom of the 510 connector, again leading the improperly completing the circuit.

Sorry, I used to follow e-cig news closely (still use one), and followed these stories. Just my experience.

 

[tomjasz]

ecigs often have a protection circuit. OR should have!

 

[antboy]

ecigs often have a protection circuit. OR should have!

Yeah, most do. Generally, those are the "regulated" mods where you can adjust the wattage based on the resistance of the coil, or even the gas station garbage like JUUL and Vype.

The mechanical mods essentially a tube with a battery, and by pressing the bottom of the tube, it completes the circuit. The lower the resistance, the better, for the old school "cloud chuckers".

There were a couple of companies that made protection/regulation circuits to insert into mechanical mods, but I don't think there's much demand for that now, given the advancements made with quality vape mods.

Simple coil building is just doing a number of wraps to get your resistance, then run cotton through it to put the e-liquid on. Some people dive into mixing various gauges of kanthal to maximize surface area while keeping resistance low, which vaporizes the maximum amount of liquid in the shortest time.

For example: