E-assist on a Flevobike GreenMachine?

[Cyberskater]

I have a very special bike, well in fact I have several special bikes but this one in particular is a bit tricky to add an electrical assist to. It is a Dutch Flevobike GreenMachine recumbent with some distinct design features. The drive-line is completely enclosed within the single tube frame, and in the middle sits a modified Rohloff 14-speed IGH. The wheels are 5-spoked carbon fibre, with a drum brake in the rear and a disc brake and a SON dynamo in the front. All of this gives it a very sleek and elegant look, which I would like to maintain. They used to offer an integrated e-assist, which I have in my velomobile from the same company, but it is discontinued for the time being. I want to keep the wheels, and a regular mid-drive is not possible with this BB. I enclose two pictures, one is a cut-away CGI showing the drive line, and the other one is similar to my bike, but I have a suspension fork, giving more room between the frame and the front wheel.

Any suggestions? I'm looking at a OneMotor friction drive. There will probably be enough room at the front wheel. I don't use the kick-stand, and there is a dedicated mount for that in the frame. But will the sensor on the cranks send a strong enough signal to the motor at this distance?

 

[David Yormark]

A little late but here goes. I am also planning on electrifying the same model bike. 3 months ago I first stumbled upon pictures of this utilitarian recumbent bike then read up on it and watched youtube videos of it. I concluded that this is probably my dream bike which has so many of the low maintenance features I was looking for. It deserved nothing less than a powerful high quality motor and battery. After finally buying and examining the bike I concluded that the only way to properly electrify it was with a front hub motor in a conventional metal spoked wheel. Obviously a hub motor can not be added to the 5 spoked fiberglass or carbon wheel that comes with this bike but I would not use a hub motor in any non metal wheel even if it could be done because non metal wheels do not draw heat away from the motor as it is spinning. Metal wheels act as a heatsink to draw heat away from the motor which is extremely important if you like to go fast like I do. Yes I too love the look of the 5 spoke fiberglass wheels but I must put a motor on this bike so removing the original front wheel is the only way to do it effectively. I will still have the 5 spoked rear wheel while the all aluminum alloy front wheel will not look like a typical wheel because the motor will take up over half the area inside the circle. The spokes may be as short as 4" because we are using 20" wheels. I have never seen or heard of a friction drive bicycle motor that did not have many problems so if you want to get serious about electrifying your expensive bike then go with a quality motor and system. I am planning on getting the "All Axle Hub Motor" from Grin Technologies and have them build me an all black wheel with black rim, spokes, and motor that will fit into the optional MEKS front suspension fork that I will be getting soon from Flevobike. At least my new front black aluminum wheel with black motor will match my rear fibergass wheel in color. Too bad there are not enough high quality choices in 20" front suspension forks but that is another chapter. The advantage of the "All Axle Hub Motor" is I can always fit it into other forks that I might use on this bike or other bikes if things don't work out or I change my mind because it uses adapters that will allow the motor to fit onto any type and size of axle. Grin claims it is the only hub motor that has this "fit all axles" capability. Using a front hub motor means you will not be able to use your front dynamo but that is not a significant problem because you will now have the use of a large Lithium battery to power all your electronic accessories in addition to its main purpose of powering the motor. You will also not be able to implement a PAS because your pedals are not connected to the motor. The motor will be activated by throttle alone but look at it this way: you now have "all wheel drive" which I think is cool. I especially will benefit from the motor not being connected to the drivetrain parts because I alone am not strong enough to create excessive wear on those parts but a 1000-2000W motor will almost always tear through those parts in no time! By keeping our original 5 spoked fiberglass or carbon front wheels in a safe place we should have no problem switching back and forth quickly between the heavier electric version of our bikes and the much lighter non electric version. You wanting to keep the original look might do that a lot but it will be a battle between heavy & fast vs light & slow. Believe it or not I know a guy who when he first got into electric bikes 10 years ago use to take the motor out of his rear short spoked wheel then rebuild the wheel with the original longer spokes and standard hub to non electrify his bike and vice versa to electrify it again. When I told him that he would save a lot of time and effort by keeping 2 wheels that swap out with each other he replied, "wouldn't that cost more money?"; hahaha. I will post a follow up with pictures when I finish electrifying my Green Machine which I expect to do before the end of the year.

 

[Cyberskater]

Thanks for your reply, David! Good to hear that others have found this gem of a bike. I have been considering that very motor as well. I do a lot of day-trips on gravel roads in the surrounding woods, and that would give me a strong two-wheel drive. I have their wonderful Satiator charger, perfect to bring on holidays, and especially when you have several bikes with different battery systems. I bought the bike from a friend who had it for 7-8 years. It was delivered by the shop owner who cycled it from the shop in Germany to my friend in Stockholm, Sweden. 1000 km! So it was well run in and tested. I've had it for another two years, and this summer I opened it up to check the chains with a Rohloff chain check. There was no measurable wear at all! A strong one-speed chain running in a straight line in a protected environment is almost indestructable.

As I was hesitant about buying a OneMotor from across the ocean with all the freight and customs hassles, I ended up with a Rubbee from Lithuania. Sadly the signal from the cadence sensor to the motor unit on the rear wheel turned out to be to weak when I put my big body in the line of sight. Instead I use it on a foldable bike at the moment.

So I may end up with a system like yours in the end. Well proven and nothing that can go wrong!

 

[David Yormark]

Glad to hear you are going with a better motor system and like I said before, with both a motorized aluminum wheel and the original carbon wheel, you should have no problem going from electrified to non electrified in minutes if you choose to ride non electrified. I have been riding mine for about a month now with no problems although still not electrified yet. One scenario that I fear is if I went on a long trip and somehow the chain disengaged with any of the chainrings, which happens a lot with many recumbents, then I have to disassemble half the bike to get at the chain to reattach it. What if I did not have all the tools on me to get at the chain? When I look at the Ghost (orange bike) view of the bike I see how secure the chain appears to be contained then I think it probably will never disengage unless the chain snaps after 20,000 miles; haha. My confidence in a bike's reliability shot up to an all time high after reading about your zero chain wear after 10 years of use between you and your friend plus a 1000 km delivery trip. That sounds like many thousands of miles. Of course once we have a motor installed and did encounter a chain disengagement then, with no repair work until we get home, we should be able to throttle home in a low power setting with no pedaling. I assume you have the MEKS suspension fork that Flevobike offers as an option which is the one I plan on getting soon. If so, how would you compare it with other suspension forks you have used on other bikes?

 

[Cyberskater]

Don't worry about the chain dislodging, that won't happen! It is very securely guided in chain tubes and the green tensioned chainguides you can see on the return side of the chains. Single-speed chains are extremely strong, I have never had a failure on those even when pushing with my heavy body and a 1100W motor on very worn chains on my winter bike. It is easy to open up the frame, you only need TORX keys #20 and #27 to remove the red side plates, and a crank tool if you want to open the bottom bracket plates. Since the chain is well supported it can't bounce around like on a regular 'bent. This is an eternity machine, with low maintainence and risk of failure! On my other 'bents, I have found the chain, and especially the chain tubes, to be the major source of all troubles.

The fork is so-so, but it needs some service soon, there is some stiction in it. I had an AZUB SIX for review (http://file.big.su.se/cyber1/qr5.htm) some time ago, and it had a 20" SASO fork, which I liked a lot better, but then of course it was brand new, Sadly they don't offer that anymore on AZUB bikes, I don't know why. They now have Spinner Grind as the only option.

 

[Cyberskater]

Glad to hear you are going with a better motor system and like I said before, with both a motorized aluminum wheel and the original carbon wheel, you should have no problem going from electrified to non electrified in minutes if you choose to ride non electrified. I have been riding mine for about a month now with no problems although still not electrified yet. One scenario that I fear is if I went on a long trip and somehow the chain disengaged with any of the chainrings, which happens a lot with many recumbents, then I have to disassemble half the bike to get at the chain to reattach it. What if I did not have all the tools on me to get at the chain? When I look at the Ghost (orange bike) view of the bike I see how secure the chain appears to be contained then I think it probably will never disengage unless the chain snaps after 20,000 miles; haha. My confidence in a bike's reliability shot up to an all time high after reading about your zero chain wear after 10 years of use between you and your friend plus a 1000 km delivery trip. That sounds like many thousands of miles. Of course once we have a motor installed and did encounter a chain disengagement then, with no repair work until we get home, we should be able to throttle home in a low power setting with no pedaling. I assume you have the MEKS suspension fork that Flevobike offers as an option which is the one I plan on getting soon. If so, how would you compare it with other suspension forks you have used on other bikes?

Hi David!
How is it going, have you electrified your Green Machine yet? If so, did you encounter any problems? For various reasons, mostly laziness, I have not ordered my motor yet, but will do so now. In the end I also settled for the All Axle with a throttle, but no CA control panel. I will place the battery under the frame tube below the seat. What batteries did you get?

 

[RickHoran]

Sorry that I am late to the party with this post, but better late than never.

I've been the proud owner of a GreenMachine since 2009 and was a North American dealer (NYC) for several years. I electrified my bike in the summer of 2019 using a 6T MAC motor, ASI controller, and LUNA 52v Wolf bike battery. I designed and 3D printed my own battery bracket to keep the weight low under the under-seat steering handlebars. Under normal circumstances, I get about 50 miles of range out of my battery at average speeds of 18 - 20 mph with a top speed of 35 on flat ground and 55 going like a madman down mountains.

I just finished a 3,750-mile cross-country bike ride from South Carolina to Oregon with no issues, although did carry a second battery, which was a necessity to maintain an average pace of 50 - 70 miles a day. Fully loaded the bike weighed 170 lbs. but still handled great because of the low center of gravity. (see photo with the black paniers and yellow dry bags. The trip took two months.

I have the solid aluminum front fork which needed some minor filing for clearing the motor and I used Grim Torque Arms on both sides for strength. Most folks do not recommend mounting powerful geared hub motors on shocked front forks as they are not as strong as the solid type.

There's a full-twist grip throttle on the left-hand side of the handlebar which is intuitively balanced with the right-hand Rohloff shifter and pedals. The two-wheel drive works wonderfully and the weight is approximately 50-50 when I'm in the saddle

The upgrade cost about $1,250 in parts initially, plus another $600 for the second battery. Nothing on the bike was damaged or altered permanently to accommodate the electrification so that I can revert the bike back to all manual pedal power in the future if I ever want to (doubtful).

I think that's about it. I would recommend this type of conversion to all my fellow GreenMachine owners.

This is the high-performance Luna Cycle kit I installed

 

[JRA]

The fact that you rode across country on a 170lb recumbent with Avid mech disc brakes is both impressive and scary as (*&^! Bet you went through some brake pads. Glad it worked out and sounds like an epic adventure.

 

[RickHoran]

Brakes? Who needs brakes?

 

[Cyberskater]

Hi Rick! Good to hear from you, and that you make such long camping trips. I have seen your YouTube video when you drive your GM on the boardwalk down by the sea many times. In fact that was one of my major inspirations for getting this wonderful bike. A few days ago I finally completed my conversion.

With the conversion, I wanted to keep the clean lines as far as possible. This meant that the only practical solution was a GRIN All Axle hub in the front wheel. No torque sensor or Cycle Analyst, and a Baserunner controller in the 800Wh battery. Some of the wires and cables are routed within the frame. The Edelux II front and rear lights are fed by the battery (originally there was a SON dynamo hub with the older Edelux I).

I use no CA, just a throttle with a Trip Wire (red arrows) to cut motor power and activate regenerative braking. A Magura hydraulic brake in front, and a SA 90mm wire activated drum brake in the rear. I have set the Virtual Electronic Freewheel very high, so this works as a 100W pedelec assist. A quick flick of the throttle activates it, and a short squeeze on the front brake turns it off and gives me an electronic brake with a slow ramp up to full effect. If I want to change any settings, I use the Phaserunner Suite with a cable and my cell phone.

For daytrips I use a bespoke seat bag from Radical Design, with quick release and a brake light from Bausch und Müller. This has a retardation sensor that activates a flashing light in three levels, depending on how hard I brake. Very visible for riders behind me in hectic city traffic. For camping trips I add a set of Banana Bags from Radical Design. They hold a two-man tent, whisky, camping chair and table, 9cm mattress, electronics and everything else you may need for a good life on the road.

I made a foldable cover for the battery and controller. I use this bike mainly in good weather, and have no front mudguard, so if the road is wet I get some spray from the front wheel.

 

[RickHoran]

Thanks for the photos and detailed explanation. Great job with your retrofit. I've got the MAC Motor which is essentially the the GRIN All Axle except without the regen. I got the 6T version which gets me up to 35 mph on level ground which is about how fast I can pedal in 14th gear anyway, so it's well-matched. There's still plenty of torque because of the small (20") wheels. With the above-seat steering, you didn't have to design a special bracket to bring the battery below the under-seat steering mechanism. If anyone out there needs to do that, I would be happy to send the 3D CAD files for this custom adapter, designed specifically for the Luna Wolf 52v 13.5 Amp Hour Battery.
Two questions regarding your set-up...
1.) How do you like the regen and mock freewheeling? Do you notice any significant extension of range? Do you live in a hilly environment?
2.) Any complications (too much flex, stiction, etc.) with a powerful front hub motor on a suspension front end?

I have rigid aluminum forks and the left side tang, (disk brake side) finally broke but I repaired it like new with some strong 2-part epoxy.

I've attached a couple of photos taken last summer where you can see the new fork-mounted headlight, which is great, and the home-made, barefoot pedals I made, which somehow make this bike even more comfortable. I rode across most of the country barefoot and my feet were on Cloud 9!

Thanks again and great job!!

 

[Cyberskater]

Hi again!
I think I have the 6T winding too, they called it "fast" when I ordered. I'd guess the motor stops adding torque at 45 km/h with a 48V battery and the "mountain" sprocket in the rear wheel, which is enough for me, and way above EU regulations... I don't use the feature of adding top speed by field weakening. I turned down the max current that delivered a whopping 4kW! I had a bad fall on a forrest road riding a steep uphill. The front wheel spun, and I toppled over backwards.

1) Yes, I live in a hilly area, I ride a lot in city traffic and on forrest roads, so a strong motor is more useful than long range or top speed. I have two batteries of 750Wh, so I bring an extra on long daytrips. They also fit on my trike. Have you run out of power on your long trips? Do you charge during the day? Since I don't have a CA I can't have proportional regen, but that is possible now with their new cable with connectors for brake sensors and two-way throttle. I'm not seeking for extended range, if so a 5% bigger battery would have been an easier solution. But I like the soft and silent braking.

2) I don't like the fork, it's too soft for me. Or maybe I'm too heavy... With my 62mm tyres a stiff fork will be enough suspension.

Repairing a fork with epoxy sounds scary! Did you have the Edelux I on before? When I electrified my bike I changed mine for a Edelux II which is much stronger, and that could be plugged directly into the big battery. Are your new soles flat on top, or contoured to your feet? I was thinking of cutting down a pair of Crocs sandals, is that what you did?

 

[RickHoran]

Funny, I also went from a low voltage Edelux headlight, driven by a SON dynamo, to a high voltage model driven by 52v battery. Unfortunately that new one got crunched on my cross country trip when the jury-rigged, side of the road frame stand I made to change a flat front tire tipped over. I never liked that bracket and location anyway. I really like the fork mounted location that is out of my line of sight, out of harms way and shines where the front wheel is pointed. Plus, I really like the way it looks and performs. Of course there’s always some disadvantage, and that is it requires it’s own recharge and is not connected to the LiOn battery.

Let’s see if I can remember your other questions….
1. I’ve got a 750 watt/hr battery too at 52 volts which delivered an average of 50 miles of range when new, now, 4 1/2 years and hundreds of charges old, probably closer to 40. Like you, I did buy a second battery of the same size, for my cross country trip where the loaded bike weighed 170 lbs. without me! Our daily mileage averaged 60, so with the extra weight of all the camping gear (and extra battery!) and some pretty significant hills (the Rockies), I would use about a battery and a half per day.

2.). I think the fork might even be stronger now than it was before.

3.) I’m going to see if I can find some photos of my barefoot pedals to show you... The structural part was 5mm-thick Alucobond that to which I screwed a Shimano SPD cleat to snap into my SPF pedals. On clip side I glued a thin hard rubber pad and and on the foot side, a piece of thick, high-density foam. I even used a jigsaw to make little toe shapes on the top. They were fun to make and more fun to use. (And no annoying tan lines from flip/flops!)

 

[RickHoran]

Here are a couple of photos of my barefoot pedals…