DJI motors and ebikes

[Chargeride]

DJI are a huge company producing some of the most cutting edge tech on the planet, their drones range from 300 dollar minis to 15K cropdusters that can lift a man.
DJI, also known as Da Jiang Innovations, has become the world's largest drone maker, having achieved global dominance in less than 20 years. The company now supplies 70% of the world's consumer drones and nearly 80% of U.S. consumer drones.14 Mar 2024

 

[il Munduato]

Certain places on the planet are continually experimenting, innovating and adding sides to the box....while others don't do much of anything.
These new motors may pave the floors of hell but the movers and shakers that are developing them will never know as hell is reserved for those that stifle.

 

[BlackHand]

The motor sounds impressive. What's more impressive is that the tuning and sw seem well thought out and polished right out of the gate.

Exclusive first test: New DJI Avinox motor system

With the DJI Avinox, drone specialists DJI present their very first mid-drive ebike motor! Here’s everything you need to know about it!

ebike-mtb.com

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Such pessimism Stefan. Even if these companies do not achieve mainstream status in the ebike world, I maintain that there’s always room for innovation and growth which can only encourage others to follow or exceed in their footsteps. They maybe the new kids on the block but I give them full credit for what they have accomplished and that might simply have been to open the eyes and arouse interest of the competition.

There are so many new motor systems announced in the last two years.

• First, the motor manufacturer needs to convince a large e-bike company to believe the given system is worth investing in it.
• Secondly, it usually takes two years to have the first production e-bikes released to the market
• Thirdly, the market (customers) have to believe they buy a reliable e-bike system. No one likes spending big dollar to be left with a piece of junk soon.
• The matter of longevity of the system. The system should be supported for 7 years, with the spares still in the storage or in the after-market.
• The matter of legality of the motor: as the principal e-bike market is in EU, the motor manufacturer must ensure the motor is within legal limits of the region. Write "850 W" once, and forget selling the thing in the EU (writing 105 Nm alone would probably pass unnoticed).

As with any new invention, I am patiently waiting to see who of you would be an early adopter. The technical side is one thing (anyone owned a Betamax?) Business is quite another matter.

It is not the motor that stops the e-bike market growth. It is the battery.

 

[Rás Cnoic]

There are so many new motor systems announced in the last two years.

• First, the motor manufacturer needs to convince a large e-bike company to believe the given system is worth investing in it.

Not always. Looks like DJI are doing their own bikes. Also Decathlon. ZF have massive clout, so like Mahle in time I expect they'll find willing takers.

• Secondly, it usually takes two years to have the first production e-bikes released to the market

By the time Eurobike announcements are made brands are close or ready for market. See Pinion last year and DJI have said bikes will be on sale in the autumn.

• Thirdly, the market (customers) have to believe they buy a reliable e-bike system. No one likes spending big dollar to be left with a piece of junk soon.

These are massive, reliable companies who are diversifying, using skills brought over from other sectors. I think DJI know a little bit about batteries and electric motors already.

• The matter of longevity of the system. The system should be supported for 7 years, with the spares still in the storage or in the after-market.

But that goes for all manufacturers. EBR pages are full of warranty issues riders have found often with well known bike brands. Can't see DJI or ZF for example being in any danger of going bankrupt right now. It's Trek and Spesh that are in trouble, laying off staff, reducing number of models and desperately trying to get rid of the backlog. Trek have just announced they are going direct to consumer to compete with all the Canyons and Cervelos plus now they face these new boys. These traditional bike companies are small, cash poor and without other sectors to rely on if bikes are not profitable. They are attacked from the bottom by cheap Chinese (but reliable) motors and now suddenly by big tech companies like these at the high end.

• The matter of legality of the motor: as the principal e-bike market is in EU, the motor manufacturer must ensure the motor is within legal limits of the region. Write "850 W" once, and forget selling the thing in the EU (writing 105 Nm alone would probably pass unnoticed).

Because you haven't done much research here I think you are lumping these companies in with start ups who rely on those 1000wh Chinese off the shelf systems. These companies are primarily tecnology/ engineering companies and both the DJI and ZF systems are European legal. They both do engineering like Bosch, Mahle and Brose do. Bosch may have been the first to see potential in ebikes but as the world abandons ICE technology more and more will be in the EV and E bike space. If you are leaders in battery and motor tech its relatively straight forward to adapt your systems for bikes.

As with any new invention, I am patiently waiting to see who of you would be an early adopter. The technical side is one thing (anyone owned a Betamax?) Business is quite another matter.

They were queuing around the block to see the DJI bike. And as soon as you forward the money for a new ebike Stefan I'll happily buy one of these. Probably a Pinion MGU equipped bike. Or maybe 2 if your generosity stretches.

It is not the motor that stops the e-bike market growth. It is the battery.

What does that line about batteries mean? In this context? Both DJI and ZF make their own batteries. And are world leaders in electrical engineering.

Think the biggest danger is these huge companies realise that maybe there isn't enough profit to be made in ebikes (too small a sector for them to put energy into) especially right now. Only time will tell.
But again why be pessimistic? We as potential customers of any e bike system benefit if companies like these push the tech to make smaller, lighter, more powerful motors. It's win win.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

These are massive, reliable companies who are diversifying

Trek have just announced they are going direct to consumer to compete with all the Canyons and Cervelos plus now they face these new boys.

Trek was the company to diversify first into at least 6 different e-bike systems. Draw your own conclusion what the outcome has been.

See Pinion last year

With R&M (the only really influential brand) promising Pinion.MGU e-bikes only in 2025.

And as soon as you forward the money for a new ebike Stefan I'll happily buy one of these.

The commercial success requires a big number of the customers and it cannot depend on the money from Stefan only.

As I say, I'm patient and will be waiting for some of you becoming adopters of at least one of the recent inventions. If I live up seeing that, of course

It is not only you Rás to be easily carried away by any new invention in the market. However, it was you who was praising the Polish brand Rondo for its innovation (without seeing or riding the bike). Do you know what has killed Rondo? Cheap wheels that were snapping after a few rides. Any Rondo rider had to order and install a new better wheelset, which is expensive. Even if Rondo might have had that issue resolved, the brand has lost its momentum. Meanwhile, Kross (a big Polish brand), Canyon and Merida overtook the market.

To summarise: I have to see the success of DJI, Pinion or Valeo yet.

P.S. I said I didn't think any new motor system would make e-bikes better. It is the battery energy density that is the prime mover of the progress. DJI may have an 850 W motor but they also need a battery to feed it. Either a heavy one or a lightweight one but with a ridiculously short range.

 

[mschwett]

…P.S. I said I didn't think any new motor system would make e-bikes better. It is the battery energy density that is the prime mover of the progress. DJI may have an 850 W motor but they also need a battery to feed it. Either a heavy one or a lightweight one but with a ridiculously short range.

your battery comment is ironic! DJI is one of the few companies which have been making and selling high capacity / high output lithium batteries to consumers for over a decade.

their 600wh e-bike battery at 2870g seems very, very competitive. a quick look shows the levo batteries at 500wh and 700wh weighing 3135 and 3825g, respectively. their 800 is lighter than specialized’s 700. consider also that a 100wh drone battery weighs only 470g, which would make something like specialized’s range extender (160wg) weigh only 750g, a full 25% less than they actually do. and consider that these drone batteries are made for things that fly, get abused on hard landings, experience high accelerations and maneuvering, and discharge their entire capacity in regualr use in less than a half hour!

 

[il Munduato]

Trek was the company to diversify first into at least 6 different e-bike systems. Draw your own conclusion what the outcome has been.


With R&M (the only really influential brand) promising Pinion.MGU e-bikes only in 2025.


The commercial success requires a big number of the customers and it cannot depend on the money from Stefan only.

As I say, I'm patient and will be waiting for some of you becoming adopters of at least one of the recent inventions. If I live up seeing that, of course

It is not only you Rás to be easily carried away by any new invention in the market. However, it was you who was praising the Polish brand Rondo for its innovation (without seeing or riding the bike). Do you know what has killed Rondo? Cheap wheels that were snapping after a few rides. Any Rondo rider had to order and install a new better wheelset, which is expensive. Even if Rondo might have had that issue resolved, the brand has lost its momentum. Meanwhile, Kross (a big Polish brand), Canyon and Merida overtook the market.

To summarise: I have to see the success of DJI, Pinion or Valeo yet.

So you have it... No sense in developing anything new, different or otherwise.

P.S. I said I didn't think any new motor system would make e-bikes better. It is the battery energy density that is the prime mover of the progress. DJI may have an 850 W motor but they also need a battery to feed it. Either a heavy one or a lightweight one but with a ridiculously short range.

This has to be one of the most ignorant comments I've ever seen on here. Scary/hysterical that it's repeated.

 

[Chargeride]

Drone batteries do tend to be li-po, they are lighter with faster discharge, but quite a bit more dangerous, all the dji batteries have built in monitoring tech.
In fact they slowly discharge when left.

 

[mschwett]

Drone batteries do tend to be li-po, they are lighter with faster discharge, but quite a bit more dangerous, all the dji batteries have built in monitoring tech.
In fact they slowly discharge when left.

yeah, they drop somewhat quickly to 80% or so but it’s a very gradual decline from there. i had a couple big heavy lift drones back in the day, now those were dangerous batteries. just a giant brick of lipo, no BMS at all. just a plug. around 200 wH/kg (20-40% more than typ bike battery!)

i let one discharge too far a couple times and it starting puffing up ominously….

 

[il Munduato]

yeah, they drop somewhat quickly to 80% or so but it’s a very gradual decline from there. i had a couple big heavy lift drones back in the day, now those were dangerous batteries. just a giant brick of lipo, no BMS at all. just a plug. around 200 wH/kg (20-40% more than typ bike battery!)

i let one discharge too far a couple times and it starting puffing up ominously….

LiPo should be kept at the storage SOC 3.8v/cell and only fully charged shortly before use.
I've kept LiPo for years following this established best practice without issue.

 

[mschwett]

LiPo should be kept at the storage SOC 3.8v/cell and only fully charged shortly before use.
I've kept LiPo for years following this established best practice without issue.

yep, no issues with the ones i treated very carefully! The puffed one was low after a long flight, and i forgot to charge it for a year or two!

 

[Rás Cnoic]

Trek was the company to diversify first into at least 6 different e-bike systems. Draw your own conclusion what the outcome has been.


With R&M (the only really influential brand) promising Pinion.MGU e-bikes only in 2025.


The commercial success requires a big number of the customers and it cannot depend on the money from Stefan only.

As I say, I'm patient and will be waiting for some of you becoming adopters of at least one of the recent inventions. If I live up seeing that, of course

It is not only you Rás to be easily carried away by any new invention in the market. However, it was you who was praising the Polish brand Rondo for its innovation (without seeing or riding the bike). Do you know what has killed Rondo? Cheap wheels that were snapping after a few rides. Any Rondo rider had to order and install a new better wheelset, which is expensive. Even if Rondo might have had that issue resolved, the brand has lost its momentum. Meanwhile, Kross (a big Polish brand), Canyon and Merida overtook the market.

To summarise: I have to see the success of DJI, Pinion or Valeo yet.

P.S. I said I didn't think any new motor system would make e-bikes better. It is the battery energy density that is the prime mover of the progress. DJI may have an 850 W motor but they also need a battery to feed it. Either a heavy one or a lightweight one but with a ridiculously short range.

This is all well and good Stefan but its very whataboutry. You're sidestepping my points. I'm not talking about trek 'diversifying' by using motors from Bosch, Fazua and TQ. I'm talking about huge multinational companies arriving for the first time into our humble e bike world. Bringing impressive levels of engineering. As I said, that will have a knock on affect on the future e bikes we ride. I hope it will also bring down the prices in general as the sector becomes more competitive. Lets hope for a proper arms race.

Oh and you are really weird about Rondo. I brought them to your attention first as you were looking for a normal bike to try out and they are Polish (support your own local brand and so on) and award winning. A quick google and it seems they haven't died quite yet, just launching the latest version of the RUUT (with Hunt wheels I see)

https://www.bikeradar.com/news/rondo-gravel-ruut-cf-gen-2

Plus they're taken on two top Polish athletes as ambassadors - who you might know of:

Ambassadors

A perfect symbiosis between bikes and athletes.

rondo.cc

 

[Stefan Mikes]

This is all well and good Stefan but its very whataboutry. You're sidestepping my points. I'm not talking about trek 'diversifying' by using motors from Bosch, Fazua and TQ. I'm talking about huge multinational companies arriving for the first time into our humble e bike world. Bringing impressive levels of engineering. As I said, that will have a knock on affect on the future e bikes we ride. I hope it will also bring down the prices in general as the sector becomes more competitive. Lets hope for a proper arms race.

None of these players will get anywhere before they convince the e-bike industry their own solution is the way to go. TQ had their HPR120 several years ago, Rob Rides EMTB was delighted but the industry didn't want that motor. TQ needed to release HPR50 to later convince Trek and others.

Oh and you are really weird about Rondo. I brought them to your attention first as you were looking for a normal bike to try out and they are Polish (support your own local brand and so on) and award winning. A quick google and it seems they haven't died quite yet, just launching the latest version of the RUUT (with Hunt wheels I see)

Whatever Rondo will do, the brand lost hearts of many gravel cyclists here. What do they ride instead then? Ah yes, another Polish brand, Kross.

A friend (a Welsh expat) -- who is a competing gravel cyclist -- used to ride a Scott Speedster 20. Kross is very active on the marketing side. Just recently, Kross offered free demo rides and 20% discount to all participants of the Mazowiecki Gravel race. Having finished his 250 km race and after a short rest, Paul approached the Kross tent and asked for a demo ride. A few days later, he bought this e-bike:

Kross Esker RS 2.0
Full carbon, electronic drivetrain. RRP EUR4,665, GBP3,945. Now, substract the 20% discount

There is abundance of gravel bikes in Poland, domestic and imported. Yes, people still buy Rondo but they are not excited with it.

Plus they're taken on two top Polish athletes as ambassadors - who you might know of:

Ambassadors

A perfect symbiosis between bikes and athletes.

rondo.cc

Ms. Włoszczowska is an MTB-er. Mr. Marczyński is a roadie (yes, he organizes some gravel event no he does not).

So much for Ambassadors. Wasn't Ms. Włoszczowska endorsing Rondo?

If any of those brands wanted a real Ambassador, they would approach Ms. Katarzyna Niewiadoma, female World Champion in UCI gravel cycling. Unfortunately, Ms. Niewiadoma is endorsing... Canyon

 

[Captain Slow]

Stefan I think you make some valid points. But with ZF's long history in the automotive sector building transmissions, I would trust they know how to make a reliable ebike motor and despite the specs of the DJI being better, I'd lean towards the ZF all other things being equal. But if the ZF ends up being far higher in price then I'd look elsewhere.

 

[Prairie Dog]

There are so many new motor systems announced in the last two years.

• First, the motor manufacturer needs to convince a large e-bike company to believe the given system is worth investing in it.
• Secondly, it usually takes two years to have the first production e-bikes released to the market
• Thirdly, the market (customers) have to believe they buy a reliable e-bike system. No one likes spending big dollar to be left with a piece of junk soon.
• The matter of longevity of the system. The system should be supported for 7 years, with the spares still in the storage or in the after-market.
• The matter of legality of the motor: as the principal e-bike market is in EU, the motor manufacturer must ensure the motor is within legal limits of the region. Write "850 W" once, and forget selling the thing in the EU (writing 105 Nm alone would probably pass unnoticed).

As with any new invention, I am patiently waiting to see who of you would be an early adopter. The technical side is one thing (anyone owned a Betamax?) Business is quite another matter.

It is not the motor that stops the e-bike market growth. It is the battery.

DJI has made it known all along that their system will be made available to other bike manufacturers as well. Where that goes is anybody’s guess but one can’t refute that the major bike makers will be keenly interested in gaining any edge at all in what is a very competitive industry. From a support role, procuring after sales service from either an AMflow or an approved center or shop will be vital. As was mentioned before, the motor itself has gone through ten iterations so it’s not like its being debuted without undergoing some form of rigorous testing beforehand. Their batteries which are some of the most energy dense on the market goes without saying that segment of the industry quite likely is their bread and butter as it has been for years. DJI has emphasized that they don’t want to enter the ebike market with products that just meet industry standards but rather approach it in as innovative manner as possible. I agree that there’s a natural tendency for media to overhype new or trending tech which has likely led to disappointments in the past but keeping an open mind is what fuels our desire for companies like DJI and ZF to continue to push the envelope. Forest through the trees.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

More motors! More cowbell!

POLINI E-P3+ MOTOR IS BORN - Polini Motori

POLINI E-P3+ MOTOR IS BORN Polini Motori revolutionizes the concept of pedal-assist and presents the new Polini E-P3+ motor for e-bikes An innovative and last generation motor, with the “+” sign (PLUS) to underline the novelties and the important step forward thanks to the never-ending analysis...

www.polini.com

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Now, there comes OWURU

Diversify! Get stuck with the decision paralysis in the next two years!

The Hell's floor is huge

 

[Rás Cnoic]

More motors! More cowbell!

POLINI E-P3+ MOTOR IS BORN - Polini Motori

POLINI E-P3+ MOTOR IS BORN Polini Motori revolutionizes the concept of pedal-assist and presents the new Polini E-P3+ motor for e-bikes An innovative and last generation motor, with the “+” sign (PLUS) to underline the novelties and the important step forward thanks to the never-ending analysis...

www.polini.com

Polini have been around since after WW2. Long established Italian motorbike and scooter motor manufacturer with sales all over the world. Made their first inroads to e bike motors back in 2016 with the EP-3 Motor.

Now, there comes OWURU

Diversify! Get stuck with the decision paralysis in the next two years!

The Hell's floor is huge

Not new. This is the motor system Decathlon use on their MGU bike the LD (Long distance) 920E.

Owuru are Belgian, now owned by Decathlon.

Long-Distance Automatic Owuru Motor High Frame Electric City Bike LD 920 E BTWIN | Decathlon

What if you no longer needed to bother changing gear? Let yourself be carried along by a new pedalling experience with this fully automatic…

www.decathlon.co.uk

 

[Chargeride]

Now, there comes OWURU

Diversify! Get stuck with the decision paralysis in the next two years!

The Hell's floor is huge

Stefan when ebike motors hit 1000 watts .