DIY without the DIY

[George S.]

I read the thread on Endless Sphere and agree with the "Endless Drama" sentiments. The folks from Lunacycle really embarrassed themselves on that thread by being so hostile, though I do appreciate their militant dedication to low cost products and providing value to customers. I don't understand why the folks from Lunacycle don't just chill out and realize that there is enough room in the marketplace for everyone, and not all retailers are going to have the same ethos. There's no need for contentious behavior in the ebike community.

I've recently built up a full suspension Giant Anthem with a BBSHD and a shark pack from Lunacycle and I'm very happy with it (although the build process was lengthy and frustrating). It's a shame that there's no torque sensor, but the PAS actually isn't as bad as I thought it would be. The battery is simply amazing. That's the biggest reason I'm not likely to buy another retail ebike anytime soon. My previous bike had a modest 48V/8.7Ah/417Wh battery, and paired with a relatively powerful hub motor, the range wasn't so good. With a more efficient mid-drive and a 700Wh/13.5Ah shark pack battery, not only has my range doubled, but I can also easily upgrade my battery in the future, and I don't have to be stuck with the choice of just getting a one-size-fits-all replacement battery. The only company that has been doing a good job with batteries (i.e. offering battery upgrades instead of just replacements) is Stromer, however, their batteries are really expensive. Bosch and Yamaha are being helpful with their introduction of the 500Wh packs, however, that's not really such a great offering when you take into account that I can buy a 700Wh battery for my bike, and Yamaha and Bosch owners are stuck with only two options.

I'd love to see a Bafang mid-drive motor with torque-sensing that could be retrofitted like the BBS01/02. I think that would be a game-changer. The Bafang Max is a fantastic motor, but the fact that it requires a custom frame really damages the whole modular use case.

Interesting comments on Luna and ES. Not sure what that is about. I think DIY is the successful part of ebikes, right now, but the product line is very limited and the roadmap for development of the products is opaque. I'm not sure what the spat was about. No one really wants to compete with Luna. Paul just doesn't have distribution. Chris and LeGrand seem to feel that a full service retail model will work for them. Bafang could sell direct. Chinese vendors need distribution models for batteries, and they need to build a reputation. BABA stock zooms up every day.

I could see a bright future for DDIY with decent choices (maybe more choices) that would get built right. Then you get the open battery model and the upgrade model that works so well with DIY. Not sure if they could fold in something like that Max with custom frames. Golden and MAC also need torque sensors.

Like to know where you end up on the Anthem with the HD. The Anthem is more expensive than the Giant MTB's that Lectric and Luna are using. The real question is how well they work with a powerful and somewhat heavy motor. But it's an SUV, capable of doing a lot of things. So hopefully you write up the total experience on your Blog. I'm willing to wait a couple of months until you know what it really does. Ebike like that could last a lot of years.

 

[tomjasz]

Sadly Bafang has an absolutely lousy parts support chain. Luna is out of several important items. I spoke with three other dealers yesterday and all have the same complaint. Lousy parts support. The simplest of items are unobtainable. A 10 cent gasket can't be found and forget about a crank shaft or motor. I was also told Bafang will not warranty DIY builders for the additional two years. One vendor claimed Bafang will not honor DOA controller claims for him. It's just the cost of doing business and the DOA motors become a source for parts. A most disturbing direction for me to learn about as a DIY guy with 5 BBS series motors. I still find the BBS series motors to be my favorite rides. One dealer claimed that Karl's missives on grease and "hot rodding" was upsetting to Bafang. I guess I'm to shallow thinking, it makes no sense to me at all.

 

[George S.]

Bafang is a monopoly, and there are a lot of unpleasant things that they could do. As a vendor, I would not sit around and bicker, I would aim for as much leverage as possible with the supplier.

Luna and Lectric should probably merge, combine their strengths, lop off their weaknesses. You need to have a vision in here.

I've laid out 'worst care' scenarios for Eric. I particularly don't like the options when California has a certification and a limit of 750 watts. I'd look for as many sources as possible. I'd try to expand the battery business into replacements for production bikes, 36v stuff in many cases. For Luna, I would build the battery business. For Lectric, I would expand the retail. For Paul, well, flush the website. It's beyond dated.

 

[tomjasz]

"Bafang is a monopoly, and there are a lot of unpleasant things that they could do. As a vendor, I would not sit around and bicker, I would aim for as much leverage as possible with the supplier."

It seems like no one has the ability to get them to build a real parts supply chain. Getting resellers to combine efforts I'm afraid is beyond possible. I still like my 36V bikes the best, but batteries are getting little attention except for the Sondors bikes and those darn Bottle cases. To me they're way to fragile for a good frame pack.

Paul seems to be working towards a dealer network, but again, parts remain the niggling detail.

No one seems to be able to even create a version list. Which pinion, pinion plate, and plastic gear does a particular model use. That would be a huge step forward. But my view is rather narrow and self centered.

I won't pretend to understand what a dealer goes through. I see BTN made a presence here and they have a parts list but it's back to the 3 month window.

Form that narrow view, the vendor that manages to stock the parts and answer the service questions will be the most successful, long term.

 

[harryS]

In one of Karl Gessleins blogs, he mentioned Bafang's sales volume with Lunacycles.com. Sounded huge to me. So I'm not worried about Luna disappearing.

As for Bafang, they claim $85M in sales, with 830K motors sold in 2015. Not enough sales in the USA to support an office for North Anerica? Sad but true.

"BAFANG employs more than 300 staff worldwide in three locations. The head office and development centre is Suzhou in China. Close to Shanghai with its excellent infrastructure, Suzhou is well placed to access international markets. Since 2012 we have had an office in the Netherlands to be closer to, and provide an even better service for, our European customers, thus underlining the importance of the European market for our future development."

I considered buying some spares earlier this year when I ordered the BBS02 and spares were around, but I didn't, figuring that I won't ride hard enough to melt gears. I agree the parts shortage sucks if you do. Maybe it will get better.

 

[tomjasz]

A vendor reported that minimums had changed and that 50 of each size was now the base limit. Also that the 2 year extended warranty was not available for DIY installs. He claims Bafang won't even take returns on DOA controllers. Also claiming Karl's site had them up in arms over the programming. Tough to do business like that. These sorts of issues make the choice in resellers even more important. I think anyone buying off Aliexpress and the like are taking a big risk. Stick to known resellers.

 

[tomjasz]

Second report from Empowered,

"A sad note: Bafang has notified me they are reluctant to honor any more 2 year warranty claims for DIY installations. On a recent warranty replacement negotiation Bafang told me this was the last time EMPowered Cycles could claim warranty for DIY. If I am unable to negotiate full replacement from Bafang, parts will be sold at cost with no retail markup for kits purchased from EMP, retail price for kits purchased elsewhere."

 

[George S.]

Here, I would like to avail myself of this opportunity to share a piece of good news with you: we are developing an internet platform to facilitate our services. And so it will be very soon when our end users are able to have many of their needs met over the internet. This is an exciting innovation in the history of Bafang.

I don't want to read too much into this, from a (Link Removed - No Longer Exists).

I have three motors, a MAC and two Goldens. I figure the controllers are replaceable, and that's it. I could live with just replacing the motors, never repairing anything.

I wish there was better distribution of the MACs. It's a nice enough motor, and lighter than the Goldens.

 

[tomjasz]

"I wish there was better distribution of the MACs."
Times two! I have a copy cat GD I'll be repairing soon. But In the end, regardless of my investment in BBS series, I wish I had made a stronger investment in Mac motors. I have a 1000W Mxus front drive on a Trek pure, that despite all the nay sayers on front drives, is the most reliable least maintenance motor. With a Lyen 6FET controller it's just plain comfortable. No worries for parts or maintenance. If Bafang actually does come through I'll happily make my repairs. But more and more I become less trusting of how it will go. Knocking off support for DIY is a poke in the eye! But reading the tidbit gives me a glimmer of hope for longevity. I'd have been happy to ride the BBS01's for a decade.

 

[Denverthane]

I read the thread on Endless Sphere and agree with the "Endless Drama" sentiments. The folks from Lunacycle really embarrassed themselves on that thread by being so hostile, though I do appreciate their militant dedication to low cost products and providing value to customers. I don't understand why the folks from Lunacycle don't just chill out and realize that there is enough room in the marketplace for everyone, and not all retailers are going to have the same ethos. There's no need for contentious behavior in the ebike community.

I've recently built up a full suspension Giant Anthem with a BBSHD and a shark pack from Lunacycle and I'm very happy with it (although the build process was lengthy and frustrating). It's a shame that there's no torque sensor, but the PAS actually isn't as bad as I thought it would be. The battery is simply amazing. That's the biggest reason I'm not likely to buy another retail ebike anytime soon. My previous bike had a modest 48V/8.7Ah/417Wh battery, and paired with a relatively powerful hub motor, the range wasn't so good. With a more efficient mid-drive and a 700Wh/13.5Ah shark pack battery, not only has my range doubled, but I can also easily upgrade my battery in the future, and I don't have to be stuck with the choice of just getting a one-size-fits-all replacement battery. The only company that has been doing a good job with batteries (i.e. offering battery upgrades instead of just replacements) is Stromer, however, their batteries are really expensive. Bosch and Yamaha are being helpful with their introduction of the 500Wh packs, however, that's not really such a great offering when you take into account that I can buy a 700Wh battery for my bike, and Yamaha and Bosch owners are stuck with only two options.

I'd love to see a Bafang mid-drive motor with torque-sensing that could be retrofitted like the BBS01/02. I think that would be a game-changer. The Bafang Max is a fantastic motor, but the fact that it requires a custom frame really damages the whole modular use case.

 

[Denverthane]

Hi Cameron, I have an Izip Pro Tour, which I love, but am also interested in a bike that would allow high speeds for longer range. How different does the BBSHD cadence-only PAS feel compared with the torque/cadence/speed PAS in your experience?

 

[tomjasz]

There are really good players in the market. Sadly behind the scenes some really are out to hurt. It may not be public, but it's there. That said, having spoken with many of the BBSHD resellers we're very lucky to have them. The fact that parts are finally becoming more accessible really makes life easier with Bafang mid dives. I'm committed to them. Heck we still use the BBS01's with guests and for our casual rides around the park. More good than bad when comparing to the other choices. And yes. The MAX would brighten my collection, if it were a BBSHD level motor. I wasn't to enamored by this forum but have found I was wrong and am finding a lot of value here. Some good rounded fair discussions. Thanks!

 

[Cameron Newland]

Hi Cameron, I have an Izip Pro Tour, which I love, but am also interested in a bike that would allow high speeds for longer range. How different does the BBSHD cadence-only PAS feel compared with the torque/cadence/speed PAS in your experience?

The PAS isn't as good as a torque-sensing unit, however, it's not that bad, either. When it was first described to me, the Bafang cadence-sensing PAS sounded terrible to me because it provides more power at lower cadences and less power at higher cadences, however, this actually makes a lot of sense as gearing efficiency is higher at higher cadences, so less power assist is needed at higher cadences. The BBSHD is super powerful, however, I find myself mostly sticking to the lower three or four of nine total pedal assist modes, and as a result, my bike behaves like a torquey version of a 350W mid-drive instead of a 1700W drag racer (which is what it is in the ninth pedal assist mode!). Also, since the Bafang allows you to use any compatible battery under the sun, the range can be phenomenal. I get about 45 miles of range on this bike (700Wh battery), whereas I get about 18 miles of range on my 417Wh battery on my IZIP E3 Dash. I used to get ~25 miles of range when my Dash was brand new, but the battery degraded a lot after 2,000 miles of use. Now I never even ride my Dash because it gives me extreme range anxiety when riding in hilly SF. I'm sure my Dash would be fine in a flatter area, though.

 

[tomjasz]

I think the EM3ev description of PAS use is among the best written. My experience mirrors Camerons. For me higher level of assist end up with "clown pedaling". Thee's a thread on electricbike.com/forum with some interesting settings.
http://electricbike.com/forum/forum/kits/bafang-mid-drives/4554-bbshd-programming/page6

I've found the Grin programming cables make the best home made programming cable for the BBS series. The drivers are the most consistent and there are no bad cables like have come out of several non Bafang sources.

 

[Trail Cruiser]

Here's my DIY without the DIY. A Giant MTB from Luna with BBSHD / 52v 13.5ah.

This is a work in progress and excited to continue tinkering with it.
- Street tires,
- clipless pedals,
- all-position-handlebar from full upright to full aero and anywhere in between.
- Supershort stem (gold color) makes it possible to sit very comfortably in full upright position,
- color matching kick stand,
- accessory bar for cadence meter (not arrived yet) need the wired version since the wireless does not work due to interference from ebike electronics,

- Initial tests showed a solid 30 miles on continues high speed (20-25 mph)
- Power cuts off on bumps, remedied by tying the battery to the down tube with a cheap color-matched bungee cord,
- So far, I registered 34 mph max speed.

- Brooks spring saddle with about an inch of travel (on top of rear suspension),
- dumped the shift sensor, it made the cable sticky and hard to shift, also did not effectively cut the power so still having shift slamming.
- Added a left brake sensor which has a double purpose of cutting off motor when shifting
- Full wrap around fenders not yet installed (still waiting for the mounts to arrive).
- Finally able to fine tune the controller the way I like it to perform (has another mid drive, 2015 Tekoa, as my benchmark for comparison.) First 4 levels of power were matched to the Tekoa, However, the Luna has additional 5,6,7,8, and 9th level of power, it is tuned to max out at 950 watts(or 18 amps, the stock setting was 30 amps). Controller is now tuned to overshoot after initial activation to compensate for speed loss while shifting (very similar to the Tekoa).

There is oil leak on the rear shock since day one and I just emailed Luna about the problem. Let's see how Luna responds.

 

[George S.]

I don't know which battery cradle you have, for the Shark. I have the earliest, from a year ago. It is not a good design. I always use two bungees, just to get a lot of tension between battery and cradle. It's a known problem for the pack, whoever makes it.

I watched a video of another MTB Luna is selling. The guy said they have experience and do a great job of tuning the speed sensor. Too bad that didn't work out for you. They should assign a CS rep to each new buyer, make sure that stuff gets done right. You are stuck between Luna and Giant on the leak. They should just send out a part.

The website says they set the bikes up for 750 watts. Easy to change, either way.

Nice review. Bike should be solid when it's all nailed down. I would want a smooth speed sensor.

 

[Trail Cruiser]

I don't know which battery cradle you have, for the Shark. I have the earliest, from a year ago. It is not a good design. I always use two bungees, just to get a lot of tension between battery and cradle. It's a known problem for the pack, whoever makes it.

I watched a video of another MTB Luna is selling. The guy said they have experience and do a great job of tuning the speed sensor. Too bad that didn't work out for you. They should assign a CS rep to each new buyer, make sure that stuff gets done right. You are stuck between Luna and Giant on the leak. They should just send out a part.

The website says they set the bikes up for 750 watts. Easy to change, either way.

Nice review. Bike should be solid when it's all nailed down. I would want a smooth speed sensor.

You mean "gear sensor"?

Yep, the 2 bolts intended for drink holder is not designed to hold a 7-9 pounds battery. It cannot handle the vibration from road impacts, shaking the connectors and cutting power off.

Regarding the top speed, that was a mistake, I saw a real world 34 MPH, but the 38 MPH registered on the display was logged when the bike was on the stand (I just realized, sorry).

The stock setting for the controller was 30 amps which equates to 1500 watts. I don't like it since it draws too much current and sacrifices the battery range.

 

[tomjasz]

A simple and often laughed at device is the "green button" . I was a beta tester with the Gearsensor and have never been much of a fan. I have a few of them laying around as well as a BBSHD GS controller I've never used. I tried the green button and actually really like it. It tried it first for my wife who was confused about shifting. I's learned to tap my brake lever or backpedal to then shift with out slamming. But after installing the button and using it on her bike. I really like it. One more item on the handlebar but it works great. MUCH better IMO. As an aside I saw that Grin now makes the GS a CA3 feature so it is growing in popularity.

Whenever possible I always recommend the Reention brand battery cases. "Dolphin" is one but it's size makes it a bad fit on most dual suspension. BUT it has a far more robust case and bracket. I like an on/off switch as well.

Yeah that 30MPH is a power sucker and maybe even a little rough on GA and PF cells in a smaller pack. I'm happy to see more 30Q packs becoming available. Don't get me wrong. I like my GA and PF cell packs. I just think that for "riding hard and putting up wet", a more suitable cell would be the 30Q and 25R. As always opinions are all over the place.

Tis

 

[Trail Cruiser]

The green button was also one of my considerations. However, since I already developed a skill and habit of tapping the left brake lever on my other mid drive bike, I opted to do the same on my new e-bike project.

 

[tomjasz]

The green button was also one of my considerations. However, since I already developed a skill and habit of tapping the left brake lever on my other mid drive bike, I opted to do the same on my new e-bike project.

I've gone back and forth since beta testing them. I've come to believe the best use is with and IGH build. A few bad shifts there can get a bit expensive. WITH a GS a Sturmey Archer 3 speed will hold up very well. For us city guys riding streets.