DIY without the DIY

[Trail Cruiser]

I've gone back and forth since beta testing them. I've come to believe the best use is with and IGH build. A few bad shifts there can get a bit expensive. WITH a GS a Sturmey Archer 3 speed will hold up very well. For us city guys riding streets.

Anyone can arrive ultimately to the choices of power interruption that works great for them. For me, I developed a skill from a non-ebike to shift smoothly at high cadence (90-100 rpm) without pedal interruption. The key is to time the shift exactly when the crank is at vertical position where the crank torque is near zero even at high cadence. I am very obsessive when it comes to performing smooth shifting, and it is an artwork for me.

Enter the mid drive ebike. With the motor linked to the crank, I just also time the brake tap in sync with the shifting at vertical crank position. One additional skill I developed for the mid drive ebike (and this is very important to me), is to listen/feel as to when the shift is completed before I release the brake lever to restart the motor. If I release it too early then the shift will be balky and rough, it's like shifting on power. Balky rough shifting can also happen to non-ebikes.

I repeat the drill of upshifts and downshifts at high cadence without pedal interruption until I perfected and mastered the art of smooth shifting. Each bike requires slightly different technique.

 

[Trail Cruiser]

The website says they set the bikes up for 750 watts. Easy to change, either way.
.

The base model is 750 watts BBS02. Mine is BBSHD which Luna claimed to have 1000 watts but when I checked the controller, it is dialed to 1500 watts (52v x 30 amps). I tuned it down to 18 amps limit which translates to roughly 930 watts max.

 

[tomjasz]

I'm happy to read you have the kind of tuned in ridership I had in my youth with fully capable hearing and senses. Good on you! It seems that there's many more users out there without that ability or blessing. For them/sometimes me, there are solutions. Each with it's own caveats, but at least a solution or option.

Ride safe!

 

[George S.]

The base model is 750 watts BBS02. Mine is BBSHD which Luna claimed to have 1000 watts but when I checked the controller, it is dialed to 1500 watts (52v x 30 amps). I tuned it down to 18 amps limit which translates to roughly 930 watts max.

I think California makes any manufacturer certify the watts of an ebike next year. Since the limit is 750, you wouldn't want to go over that number, but who knows what compliance will be.

In Utah they specify output power, so anything around 1000 on the battery watt meter would be close. Since the bottom of the battery is 40 volts or so, then you are down to 700 watts input some of the time. I see it taking a while to work out.

I did go ahead and set my GM MP5 to 15 amps. Didn't make any real different except on steep hills, off roads basically. I don't do much of that.

The gear sensor looks good on paper and in videos where they can show smooth shifts. It's clear your sophistication level is high, so not much of an issue if you remove it. It is a gear sensor, not a speed sensor. When I was young they talked about 10 speed bikes. I always thought that was wrong, they were ten gear bikes, generally 2 in front, 5 in back. Oh, well. They must have mis-taught me too well.

Luna has some nice ebike MTB's. Not much riding info on them. I think @Cameron Newland made one. The power has to change things with a lot of bikes, like cruisers. I wouldn't ride a non-powered cruiser, but with a motor they are casual and fun.

 

[tomjasz]

MN is 1000W 20MPH limit. This numbers are kinda wonky. My 1000w front maxus easily, with 20A controller hit 26MPH. I'm liking the programable controller and being able to dial things down. Great for battery life it seems.

 

[sexton Tom]

Chime in George or Thomas.. I'm 64 so I can blame it on age !! I'm confusing my self as usual. What's the difference between watts and watt hours. A motor draws 750 watts but a battery has 760 watt hours. What am I doing to myself !! lol

Can I run a AC 1500 watt heater off a 48 volt 14 amp ebike battery through an inverter ???

 

[George S.]

Watts are right now, the power draw. Watt hours are capacity. If you draw 500 watts from a 500 watt hour battery it will last one hour. At 250 watts, two hours. It's like gallons of gas, a capacity.

Trying to draw 1500 watts from a 500 watt hour battery, it would last 20 minutes. The watt hour capacity of a 48v 14 amp hour battery is actually about 14 x 48, and 650 wh or so.

An inverter could do it, but the system would be stressed. Ebike motors reach 1500 watts.

 

[JRA]

Taking that a step further I find wh/mi (effectively your mpg) to be useful knowledge. If your battery v x Ah is whatever in the real world you don't go a constant rate of speed over the course of a ride. You might have a huge hill or headwind to deal with or feel the need for speed or don't like to pedal which are all watt sapping but happen only in various degrees. On the way back you will perhaps go down that hill or get the tailwind or slow down for whatever reason perhaps. If you know in advance from previous use that you can achieve in the range of 20 wh/mi due to how YOU ride your bike and the conditions you normally ride in it is easy to calculate how far you should be able to go.

That is why I find the mileage claims of some companies to be a bit out of hand. The other day I saw a company that said you could get potentially get 100+ miles with their system. It had a 36v 12AH battery which is 432AH which divided by 100 (miles) would equal the wh/mi which is 4.32. At that consumption level you would hardly be using the motor at all because a human on a pedal bike can put out that much power on their own, at least a reasonably fit one that can pedal that distance. Although it might even be harder due to the added weight of the motor system.

I personally calculate my usage in the 15-20 wh/mile range depending on what I want to do with a ride. At 15 wh/mi I am averaging around 15 mph with active pedaling and 25 mph @ 20 wh/mi. I ride a variety of surfaces and it fluctuates with regards to hills and headwinds and how I feel about riding that day. It does give me a baseline though and although sometimes I come back with a dead battery it is never too far from the barn.

 

[sexton Tom]

Thanks George & JRA ! I think were I'm getting confused is the part that the motor being 750 or 1000 watts only pulling 15 or 20 watts per mile. Does the controller do all this plus limit the amps coming out of the motor ? That being said here is more confusion ! Why do you need a 25 or 30 amp controller for a 14 or 15 amp battery ? I think I make all this more complex than it really needs to be. Inquiry minds want to know !! LOL

 

[tomjasz]

The gear sensor looks good on paper and in videos where they can show smooth shifts.
.

If you have a motor to use one on I'll send you one to play with.

 

[tomjasz]

Thanks George & JRA ! I think were I'm getting confused is the part that the motor being 750 or 1000 watts only pulling 15 or 20 watts per mile. Does the controller do all this plus limit the amps coming out of the motor ? That being said here is more confusion ! Why do you need a 25 or 30 amp controller for a 14 or 15 amp battery ? I think I make all this more complex than it really needs to be. Inquiry minds want to know !! LOL

Batteries are rated in AMP HOURS. Motors draw AMPS. Work with a good kit builder or shop to match. IF you have a motor and controller that draws 20A, you want to make sure the battery can put out at that rate. A good primer on batteries will help. You're simply confusing terms. Here's a really good primer.
http://www.ebikes.ca/learn/batteries.html

 

[Trail Cruiser]

Thanks George & JRA ! I think were I'm getting confused is the part that the motor being 750 or 1000 watts only pulling 15 or 20 watts per mile. Does the controller do all this plus limit the amps coming out of the motor ? That being said here is more confusion ! Why do you need a 25 or 30 amp controller for a 14 or 15 amp battery ? I think I make all this more complex than it really needs to be. Inquiry minds want to know !! LOL

Hi Tom, here's a good ebike simulator. Take note on the battery voltage and capacity (ah), also take note the consumption in watts and the range in relation to power consumption. You can play around by enetering different parameters. Good luck.
http://www.electricbikesimulator.com/index,enmi.html

Slide the throttle to your desired speed and then watch the power consumption in watts and the estimated range that each battery charge can provide. You can experiment the estimates at different speeds.

 

[George S.]

Thanks George & JRA ! I think were I'm getting confused is the part that the motor being 750 or 1000 watts only pulling 15 or 20 watts per mile. Does the controller do all this plus limit the amps coming out of the motor ? That being said here is more confusion ! Why do you need a 25 or 30 amp controller for a 14 or 15 amp battery ? I think I make all this more complex than it really needs to be. Inquiry minds want to know !! LOL

The best way to understand your riding and your battery is with an accumulating watt hour meter. What it does is calculated the watts you are drawing, as you ride, and total them on a display somewhere. You can ride slower to extend range. If you know what the battery is doing, you understand the bike and the capability. They don't put these meters on most assembled bikes. You can buy one on Amazon for $20, but the wiring can be a pain.

You can't put out an honest range number without saying how hard the motor is working and then what the battery can deliver.

With an accumulating watt meter you can say, at the end of a 10 mile ride, you used 230 watts. Then it is easy to say you used 23 wh/mile.

You need enough information to get some experience with the concepts of capacity and the watts that get used up, say at speeds or into winds or up hills.

 

[George S.]

If you have a motor to use one on I'll send you one to play with.

Thanks Tom. I never acquired a BBS motor. A strong hub is pretty much one or two speeds, two gears, and I like that.

Right now the mid-drives seem to have faded. I might look at the Smart Motion bikes, which are hubs and the dealer is close enough. People aren't saying you have to have a mid-drive these days.

What people say about the shifts on the BBS motors is just as far ranging as ever. I think I would want an assembled bike with a gear sensor, if I went down that path. What Luna charges for assembly is quite reasonable. It seems like a win-win.

 

[tomjasz]

Right now the mid-drives seem to have faded.

I wouldn't agree from reading on Luna's forum and watching sales from my friends shops. But personally I am moving away. MAC motors and some newer releases from Grin have my attention. Having a nearly complete shop I'll never pay to have someone build and ship a bike. As a matter of fact after the nightmare of buying and shipping a bike this past spring, I'll never internet order another bike. I'm a bike shop guy from here on out. Actually 6 of my bikes came from shops. ONE bikesdirect and UPS nightmare in a riding lifetime was enough for me.

 

[Trail Cruiser]

After tinkering with the BBSHD controller setting compared my 2 other class 3 ebikes (2015 izip dash, 2015 Raleigh Tekoa). I come to realize that those factory ratings were just on papers only. These factory ebikes actually put out twice as much. One owner of 500 watt Izip dash saw 1200 watts on his power meter. I was maintaining my BBSHD at 25 mph on slight uphill that registered 700+ watts. I can also do the same speed on that same road on my other mid drive 350 watt Raleigh Tekoa. And the power consumption for both is similar. Which leads me to conclude that the Tekoa's 350 watt is just on paper and the peak current draw is actually twice that much. I also read somewhere that it is also the same for the Bosch 350 watts, it's peak output is actually 750 watts.

So there you go, the BBSHD is rated at 1,000 watts but the limit draw is 1500 watts (peak output). For me, I still opted to lower the limit draw of my BBSHD to 1000 watts. Now, all my 3 ebikes have similar "feel" in relation to power consumption. The difference is the BBSHD can maintain 1,000 watts without the motor and controller overheating and it also has almost twice the battery capacity (702 wh vs 418 wh).

 

[tomjasz]

You've inspired me to down tune my BBSHD as well. I would have preferred a BBS02 for several reasons but the HD is just much more resilient. That said I still run two 350W BBS01's without issue. I had my burst of fun with speed and now that I've found the sweet spot for braking effectively it's time to detune.

 

[Trail Cruiser]

You've inspired me to down tune my BBSHD as well. I would have preferred a BBS02 for several reasons but the HD is just much more resilient. That said I still run two 350W BBS01's without issue. I had my burst of fun with speed and now that I've found the sweet spot for braking effectively it's time to detune.

Come to think of it, The BBSHD has been used for heavy duty and high power applications, if it is programmed to perform at half its maximum potential then it is an over-engineered machine and it is bullet proof for such intended purpose. I can send you a copy of my program if you are interested.

 

[tomjasz]

Yes that would be an excellent share. I'll never pass up a chance to learn.

Thanks,

Tom

 

[Trail Cruiser]

Save your old settings so you can always go back.