Commute with Full Suspension
- Thread starter OKArc
- Start date
Nova Haibike
Well-Known Member
Everyone is different. I wouldn't want to commute on a full-suspension e-mtb, but I am not you. What bike(s) are you considering?
Chris Nolte
Well-Known Member
I generally commute on a FS ebike although most of my rides are relatively short. I 37 years old but I’ve been in several auto accidents causing some damage to my back. I feel much more comfortable riding on a fs bike than a hard tail.
The top brand in our shop is Riese & Müller and they were founded in the principle of full suspension on bikes for the street. From their philosophy it’s not just about comfort but more about safety. When you have a full suspension bike and you hit bumps in the road the wheel stays on the ground maintaining traction. Unfortunately the same is not true with a hard tail. R&M calls this concept Control Technology and it’s about maintaining control in all conditions.
If you could get a bike with the Fox CTD suspension that will allow for a higher level of adjustability to ride in varied terrain. Supermoto X is a great tire for eMTB’s on the road.
I hope this helps
The top brand in our shop is Riese & Müller and they were founded in the principle of full suspension on bikes for the street. From their philosophy it’s not just about comfort but more about safety. When you have a full suspension bike and you hit bumps in the road the wheel stays on the ground maintaining traction. Unfortunately the same is not true with a hard tail. R&M calls this concept Control Technology and it’s about maintaining control in all conditions.
If you could get a bike with the Fox CTD suspension that will allow for a higher level of adjustability to ride in varied terrain. Supermoto X is a great tire for eMTB’s on the road.
I hope this helps
E-Wheels
Well-Known Member
D
Deleted member 803
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My new personal ride is an FLX Blade. It's a hard tail with a very good front shock. I put a Kinekt seatpost on from Cirrus Cycles. Between the two, the ride is quite compliant. I also swapped out nubbys for Schwalbe Super Motos and the ride is great.
I have a Specialized Turbo Levo FSR I ride on streets to get to dirt and with my wife and her trike. I probably would not use this bike as a commuter due to the fact I don't want to change the tires and I would want to go faster than 20mph. With a full suspension e-mtb you can adjust the suspension for your weight and the road conditions. This bike really handles washboard roads well. You can also ride down stairs and straight over a curb without hopping.
Get a bike that fits your body, that was a big influence on my purchase. Good luck in your search.
Ravi Kempaiah
Well-Known Member
- Region
- Canada
- City
- Halifax
Some of the reasons big companies like Trek or Giant do not spec full-suspension designs on a commuter bike are:
- Suspension on bikes are very different to car suspension and require more frequent clean-up and service.
FOX recommends changing oil (suspension fluid) every 30-100 hours. That would be mean, a service visit every month if you are spending >1hr a day. The same goes for RockShox, SR Suntour etc.
https://www.ridefox.com/fox_tech_center/owners_manuals/013/Content/Service_Intervals.html
https://www.ridefox.com/service.php?m=bike
- Suspensions are heavy and designing a full-suspension means lot more pivot points, bearings and subsequently, more maintenance. Attaching fenders or racks can be problematic as well.
They do make the ride more comfortable and bring slightly upright position.
- MTB suspensions with let's say 120mm travel respond to big potholes or curb jumps pretty well but their response time for small road imperfections is slow. Most MTB's have wider tires and running a good MTB tire at slightly low pressure is lot more conducive to absorbing small imperfections compared to a MTB suspension.
- Suspensions don't work well in very cold conditions and need more frequent service. Most of the commuters in places like Minnesota use a fat tire bike with rigid fork for that reason.
Wrote about this here: https://electricbikereview.com/forums/threads/2014-easy-motion-neo-jumper-650b.47/
I enjoyed the plush ride but I also realized the downsides. The rear rack addition was a problem and rear suspension became less responsive at 2000 miles. I currently commute only on hardtails but do have full suspension bikes that I enjoy for trails and off-roading.
A relevant discussion here: https://electricbikereview.com/forums/threads/why-no-shocks-on-a-rad-wagon.25837/#post-182580
After about 20,000 miles on different bikes, I have realized that a hardtail with Body Float suspension seatpost, 2.4" tires would be a good configuration for a commuter bike. Less maintenance and few less items to worry about. If you dial in the seatpost and tires combo correctly, you can get 95% of what you would get on a FS bike.
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OKArc
New Member
Until I now I was thinking the Giant Quick-E. Seems like the best bang for the buck.
OKArc
New Member
Thoughts on the trail version?
D
Deleted member 803
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I have no experience with the trail version. I do know that folks ride the Blade aggressively on trails.
brooklynboy64
New Member
Hey Chris— i have been to your shop after watching dozens of interviews with you and Court EBR. I realized your bike shop is just a couple miles away from me in Park Slope. I saw Lee in your shop and he was very helpful. Planning to order a R-M Homage this weekend. May be moving to Central Ohio in the next year and wondered if it’s a good idea given that Columbus doesn’t have a R-M dealer? Please pass along your thoughts- I’d Appreciate it!
roadandmtbebikes
Member
If I had expensive suspension forks and shock I would follow the maintenance interval closely. Keep in mind however that those service intervals are for mountain bikes ridden off road. MTB's are ridden much harder in far more demanding terrain through mud and dirty and wet conditions compared to a standard commuter.
My guess is that the average bicycle rider riding on the street with cheap suspension never services their fork and or shock. MTB riders are more likely to follow service intervals although that's not universally the case.
In my case, I have a hardtail with a rock shox pilot fork that I have never serviced in 15 years of ownership. They work about as well as you'd expect for an entry level fork introduced 15 years ago, which is not very well.
Modern forks and suspension work phenomenally well. It's amazing how responsive they are to both small bumps as well as big hits. Higher quality rock shox and fox forks however, start at around $600 or so.
You have several options:
1. buy a cheap full sus bike like an M2S, then replace the forks and shock spending at least $1K for the upgrades.
2. buy a R&M. Unfortunately, you'll be getting a not so high end fork, but instead a suntour aion fork, and x-fusion shock components which I've never heard of before. It has mid tier shimano slx. Decent spec, but it's $3K more than a budget M2S model with a reasonably high quality budget fork and shock upgrade.
https://propelbikes.com/product/riese-muller-homage-gt-touring/
I would go with the budget build if I could find a rack that could support more than the 22 lbs or so standard for seatpost mounted racks. Any ideas there?
3. take a look perhaps at some of the bikesdirect offerings. I believe they're offering a $2400 full sus e-bike 29er (700c) with a 400 watt hour battery. A solid value on a pre-built bike if you don't mind a bit lower battery capacity.
Swapping out a fork and shock should prove relatively straightforward as long as you're willing to spend.
The thule pack n pedal rack with a 22 kg weight limit is a solution. It gets middling reviews on amazon. 3.5 stars.
https://www.amazon.com/Thule-Pack-P...show_all_btm?ie=UTF8&reviewerType=all_reviews
4. buy a hardtail mountain bike and add a suspension seatpost. There are definitely some nicer suspension seatposts on the market now, and all are under $200. No problems with a rack or panniers.
You've got plenty of options.
My guess is that the average bicycle rider riding on the street with cheap suspension never services their fork and or shock. MTB riders are more likely to follow service intervals although that's not universally the case.
In my case, I have a hardtail with a rock shox pilot fork that I have never serviced in 15 years of ownership. They work about as well as you'd expect for an entry level fork introduced 15 years ago, which is not very well.
Modern forks and suspension work phenomenally well. It's amazing how responsive they are to both small bumps as well as big hits. Higher quality rock shox and fox forks however, start at around $600 or so.
You have several options:
1. buy a cheap full sus bike like an M2S, then replace the forks and shock spending at least $1K for the upgrades.
2. buy a R&M. Unfortunately, you'll be getting a not so high end fork, but instead a suntour aion fork, and x-fusion shock components which I've never heard of before. It has mid tier shimano slx. Decent spec, but it's $3K more than a budget M2S model with a reasonably high quality budget fork and shock upgrade.
https://propelbikes.com/product/riese-muller-homage-gt-touring/
I would go with the budget build if I could find a rack that could support more than the 22 lbs or so standard for seatpost mounted racks. Any ideas there?
3. take a look perhaps at some of the bikesdirect offerings. I believe they're offering a $2400 full sus e-bike 29er (700c) with a 400 watt hour battery. A solid value on a pre-built bike if you don't mind a bit lower battery capacity.
Swapping out a fork and shock should prove relatively straightforward as long as you're willing to spend.
The thule pack n pedal rack with a 22 kg weight limit is a solution. It gets middling reviews on amazon. 3.5 stars.
https://www.amazon.com/Thule-Pack-P...show_all_btm?ie=UTF8&reviewerType=all_reviews
4. buy a hardtail mountain bike and add a suspension seatpost. There are definitely some nicer suspension seatposts on the market now, and all are under $200. No problems with a rack or panniers.
You've got plenty of options.
Chris Nolte
Well-Known Member
Pretty cool that you were able to visit the Brooklyn shop. I would have liked to have been there to meet you, but I'm sure Lee treated you well. The Homage has been one of our most popular models so far this year. It's quite an awesome bike!
We sell these bikes throughout the US and we haven't had trouble supporting our customers. We keep parts in stock and we have gotten really good and knowing the issues which one might encounter. For the Bosch system, there is minimal maintenance required and there are Bosch dealers throughout the US that can help out in the rare instance you have trouble that can't be solved easily. Outside of that, we're talking about regular bike maintenance.
We would recommend you connect with a local shop which works on mountain bikes, they should be familiar with hydraulic brakes and suspension. Outside of that most of the maintenance is pretty straight forward. If you opt for the Rohloff hub, you'll need the maintenance kit to swap the oil but that's a really straightforward process and the guys in Brooklyn can help educate you about that.
Feel free to reach out anytime and I will be happy to assist!
Chris Nolte
Well-Known Member
I know there are some comments above about concerns for the suspension service intervals. The biggest issue with suspension is that it gets dirty and when the oil gets dirty it starts degrading.
For one the suspension service intervals have increased dramatically since the document above was published in 2012. One of the improvements have been the seals. In a traditional mountain biking setting your suspension can get really dirty and as a result, this dirt can get into the oil. In most commuting settings this isn't as much the case. If you want a super low maintenance suspension you should opt for a coil spring. R&M chose the Suntour fork and X-Fusion shock in part because they require less maintenance. They are also specifically rated for ebikes, where many other suspension parts are not.
If you operate the bike under very dirty conditions I would recommend cleaning the suspension parts regularly to keep dirt away. As the oil degrades the performance will as well. It's been our experience that in most commuting conditions the recommended service intervals are much more frequent then necessary. Part of this is to have suspension manufacturers avoid warranty liability.
Below is an excerpt from Suntour's Manual:
As long as moving parts are exposed to moisture and contamination, the performance of your suspension system might be reduced after several rides. To maintain high performance, safety and long life of your suspension system, periodic maintenance is required.
@Ravi relating to the Bodyfloat and tires getting you 95% of what a FS bike gets you. I think this is misleading. This discounts one of the most important details relating to suspension, giving you continuous control over the bike despite the terrain. With a full suspension bike when you hit an inconsistency in the road your wheen stays planted, this doesn't happen with a hard tail bike, even with a suspension seatpost. You wouldn't drive a car or ride a motorcycle without suspension would you? It's more than just comfort, safety is actually the first factor. Riding a HS bike in a crowded city is a lot safer with a FS bike than a hard tail. I'm not trying to dispute your personal experience, but I wonder if you had considered this.
For one the suspension service intervals have increased dramatically since the document above was published in 2012. One of the improvements have been the seals. In a traditional mountain biking setting your suspension can get really dirty and as a result, this dirt can get into the oil. In most commuting settings this isn't as much the case. If you want a super low maintenance suspension you should opt for a coil spring. R&M chose the Suntour fork and X-Fusion shock in part because they require less maintenance. They are also specifically rated for ebikes, where many other suspension parts are not.
If you operate the bike under very dirty conditions I would recommend cleaning the suspension parts regularly to keep dirt away. As the oil degrades the performance will as well. It's been our experience that in most commuting conditions the recommended service intervals are much more frequent then necessary. Part of this is to have suspension manufacturers avoid warranty liability.
Below is an excerpt from Suntour's Manual:
As long as moving parts are exposed to moisture and contamination, the performance of your suspension system might be reduced after several rides. To maintain high performance, safety and long life of your suspension system, periodic maintenance is required.
- A suspension system which has not been serviced in accordance with the maintenance instructions will not be covered under warranty.
- Never use a pressure washer or any water under pressure to clean your suspension fork as water may enter the fork at the dust seal level. Never use aggressive cleaners. We recommend clear water and a damp cloth to wipe down your fork.
- Your suspension fork should be serviced more frequently as indicated below if you ride in extreme weather (winter time, or in wet/muddy conditions) and rough terrain conditions.
- If you believe that your suspension system performance has changed or handles differently, immediately contact your local dealer to inspect your fork.
- After every ride: Clean the fork stanchion tubes and dust seals and maintain with an oily cloth. Check stanchion tubes for dents, scratches or other discoloration or leaking oil.
- Every 50 hours: Maintenance 1 (at dealer)
- Every 100 hours or once a year: Maintenance 2 (at dealer, ideally before winter time in order to protect all parts from the effects of weather by proper greasing)
MAINTENANCE 1: Check function of fork / check torques of mountings screws and nuts on bottom of lowers (suggested tightening torque: bolt: 10Nm, nut: 8Nm) / check for scratches, dents, cracks, discoloration, signs of wear and signs of minor corrosion (maintain with oily cloth), or oil leaks.
MAINTENANCE 2: Maintenance 1 + disassembly / cleaning the entire fork inside and out / cleaning and lubricating dust seals and slider sleeves / checking torques / adjusting to the riders liking. Before disassembly, check the slider sleeve play of the fork. To do so, apply the front wheel brake and gently push the bicycle back and forth at the handlebar stem shaft. Replace the slider sleeves if the play is excessive (more than 1 mm at the fork brace).
@Ravi relating to the Bodyfloat and tires getting you 95% of what a FS bike gets you. I think this is misleading. This discounts one of the most important details relating to suspension, giving you continuous control over the bike despite the terrain. With a full suspension bike when you hit an inconsistency in the road your wheen stays planted, this doesn't happen with a hard tail bike, even with a suspension seatpost. You wouldn't drive a car or ride a motorcycle without suspension would you? It's more than just comfort, safety is actually the first factor. Riding a HS bike in a crowded city is a lot safer with a FS bike than a hard tail. I'm not trying to dispute your personal experience, but I wonder if you had considered this.
Ravi Kempaiah
Well-Known Member
- Region
- Canada
- City
- Halifax
The document is current, not 2012 and I have linked both above.
https://www.ridefox.com/service.php?m=bike
I did speak with Trek and specialized engineers as to why they design their commuter bikes the way they are doing. It is to keep it nimble (less weight) maintenance-free and for longevity.
Anyone can call their nearest premier Trek dealership and ask why they don't build full-suspension bikes for commuting. Most dedicated riders would not pick a full suspension bike because they know what it entails.
I am always rooting for anyone who spreads scientific knowledge and there will always be inherent bias when we are benefiting business wise.
FS bikes work well for deep potholes or large inconsistencies in the terrain but it is not an improvement for small bumps or high frequency inconsistencies. It is one of the reasons Schwalbe's balloon tires are such a hit (Supermoto-X) and BodyFloat suspension seatpost is a great upgrade.
I will list some points so people can educate themselves.
Co-motion cycles out of Portland is a world renowned touring bike manufacturer. Their non E-bikes cost more than R&M ebikes and none of their bikes have suspension.
https://co-motion.com/bikes/bikes-grid-touring
Koga out of Netherlands is another world's most respected touring bike manufacturer and their signature world traveler has Rohloff E-14 but no suspension.
https://www.koga.com/en/bikes/e-bikes/collection/e-worldtraveller.htm?frame=H
Asserting oneself authoritatively does not make anyone into an expert and shrewdness is not intelligence.
Clarity comes with saddle time and experience.
Chris Nolte
Well-Known Member
Thanks for your reply Ravi. It's helpful to more fully understand your perspective.
Saratoga Dave
Well-Known Member
Mr. Nolte, I will never buy another ebike anywhere except from you, even if it is a three hour drive from Saratoga. I have not met you, but you are a gentleman and a class act.
Mr. Coffee
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- A Demented Corner of the North Cascades
This is a great thread. Thanks to both @Ravi Kempaiah and @Chris Nolte for putting some great information and perspectives out there.
And now to add my own two ducats:
I love my R&M Charger, and consider it a great bike. I have, however, ridded a lot of different bikes over the years, some of them quite nice and more than a few not-so-nice. So I think I have a bit of sensitivity to what I would vaguely call "road feel".
The Charger is an aluminum-framed bike, and like all such bikes it is quite stiff. The thicker i-beam "tubes" and the longer chainstay and slacker geometry in general all combine to make the bike very stiff and at times more than a bit ponderous. I think R&M is kind of forced by those design features to go for full suspension, or at least a front suspension and a suspension seat post.
I think an interesting experiment would be to retrofit a Charger with a really nice and springy steel front fork and a suspension stem (I've not yet found a fork that would come even remotely close to working). Preferably also with a set of Jones Bars.
And now to add my own two ducats:
I love my R&M Charger, and consider it a great bike. I have, however, ridded a lot of different bikes over the years, some of them quite nice and more than a few not-so-nice. So I think I have a bit of sensitivity to what I would vaguely call "road feel".
The Charger is an aluminum-framed bike, and like all such bikes it is quite stiff. The thicker i-beam "tubes" and the longer chainstay and slacker geometry in general all combine to make the bike very stiff and at times more than a bit ponderous. I think R&M is kind of forced by those design features to go for full suspension, or at least a front suspension and a suspension seat post.
I think an interesting experiment would be to retrofit a Charger with a really nice and springy steel front fork and a suspension stem (I've not yet found a fork that would come even remotely close to working). Preferably also with a set of Jones Bars.
Alaskan
Well-Known Member
I ride 85% on pavement. My first R&M bike was a Nevo with a nice front fork and a hard tail. with a body float. It gave a nice ride, much more comfortable and sure footed than any other bike I had ridden. Then I decided to go for a Homage with the Fox suspension upgrade (not offered after 2018) After one ride through town and out into on country roads, I finally and fully understood why Riese & Muller calls their FS bikes "control technology". With just the wheels and tires being the only unsuspended weight, going over man hole covers potholes , cracks and seams in the pavement, rubble, etc. the bike not only carried me across in comfort but even more importantly the tires kept more continual contact with the pavement, making turns more solid and enhancing traction, braking was much quicker with the tires stuck to the road. Being a class 3 bike when speeds were up over 20 to 30 and more the bike feels and is so much safer to ride.
Another unanticipated factor is that the full suspension takes up so much of the flaws in the road that I rarely dodge upcoming flaws I would normally try to avoid. This makes my path much more straight and predictable for the surrounding cars.
Mountain bikes are accustomed to spending as much if not more on suspension parts as they do on the whole rest of their bikes. The touring commuter segment is very competitive with lots of offerings for a more price sensitive market. A salesman at a shop that does not offer a full suspension touring/commuter bike is less likely to tell you that you will be safer and more comfortable on longer rides with a full suspension. sending you out the door to buy from someone else.
Chris Nolte is one of those rare creatures, a man who started his business with a mission at the heart of what he does. His integrity and sincere desire to get everyone on the very best, safest and most fun bike they can afford comes through loud and clear.
There are not many full suspension commuter/touring bikes out there. If you can afford the extra cost, they are well worth investigating. It is not just about comfort. It is really about safety.
ps; I am a very fortunate man who won the marriage lottery. I have an amazing wife whoIe loves to ride with me and vice versa. She was riding the Nevo (the hardtail) but I was feeling guilty that she was not enjoying the comfort of the FS Homage, and more importantly, I wanted her to be riding a bike that was as safe as mine. Thus we sold the Nevo and are about to take delivery on Homage #2 so we will both be be safe and comfortable.
Another unanticipated factor is that the full suspension takes up so much of the flaws in the road that I rarely dodge upcoming flaws I would normally try to avoid. This makes my path much more straight and predictable for the surrounding cars.
Mountain bikes are accustomed to spending as much if not more on suspension parts as they do on the whole rest of their bikes. The touring commuter segment is very competitive with lots of offerings for a more price sensitive market. A salesman at a shop that does not offer a full suspension touring/commuter bike is less likely to tell you that you will be safer and more comfortable on longer rides with a full suspension. sending you out the door to buy from someone else.
Chris Nolte is one of those rare creatures, a man who started his business with a mission at the heart of what he does. His integrity and sincere desire to get everyone on the very best, safest and most fun bike they can afford comes through loud and clear.
There are not many full suspension commuter/touring bikes out there. If you can afford the extra cost, they are well worth investigating. It is not just about comfort. It is really about safety.
ps; I am a very fortunate man who won the marriage lottery. I have an amazing wife whoIe loves to ride with me and vice versa. She was riding the Nevo (the hardtail) but I was feeling guilty that she was not enjoying the comfort of the FS Homage, and more importantly, I wanted her to be riding a bike that was as safe as mine. Thus we sold the Nevo and are about to take delivery on Homage #2 so we will both be be safe and comfortable.
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