CCX intermittent power

[jom]

Hi @BrianMura ,

- I wrote an email to Reention on the email listed in their website. To save one step, you could contact the person that helped me: Aimee Lee ([email protected]) . She provided the directions on how to pay for shipment (expensive! --$33), for one connector. They did not charge me for just one connector. You can pay shipping using wechat or paypal. It will arrive sooner than when you order a part from Juiced! Great service! The connector comes without the o-rings, unless you request them apart.

- I am not going to change or do anything that Juiced does not indicate, at this point; this will be my backup if I cannot get a final solution from Juiced by November 2019, when my bike warranty expires. I don't want to do anything that can be construed as an excuse to terminate the warranty. So far they have not communicated with the users on how they are going to remedy this, although they have been very helpful on supplying a spare battery when the first showed signs of connector degradation. I believe that it is their responsibility to solve this problem, and I trust they will do. I don't want to keep the straps that tie the battery to the frame forever!

I asked Juiced to change the connector that came with the spare lock-receiver assembly ($ 49) that I ordered from them, for a new one that will have both pins the same length, like the Reention. It is clear that the one they sent me is also defective, same as the original that came installed in my bike (positive pin shorter, and both pins slightly shorter than the Reention.) I have initiated a support ticket and attached the same picture I shared above, and also communicated to Luis Metz explaining my findings.

 

[BrianMura]

@jom I tried e-mailing [email protected], but I didn't get any response. Will try with the e-mail address you shared. Thanks!

Sounds like you have a backup plan for the male connector. What about the female connector? Can you order that one too? And then replace it on the battery?

Looking forward to hearing what you learn from talking with Juiced about this all. Thanks for being a pioneer!

 

[jom]

@BrianMura : The battery side female connector is the PLA0050 and I assume they have it in stock; I didn't ask. In practical terms, they are one day "off" from our date, so every email transaction takes one or two days. I sent the email chain I had with Reention in private email.

 

[BrianMura]

Studied the Reention PDF a little more. My 1st battery's female connector doesn't look like the one in the PDF with little numbers on it. My 2nd battery's female connector does like the PDF with little numbers on it.

(Link Removed - No Longer Exists)

 

[jom]

Brian, I understand that the same "envelope" of the 2-socket connector is also used for a 5-socket connector. The additional 3 sockets, when present, are used for signals, not for power. Usually the labels +, -, 1, 2,3 are displayed despite that sockets 1, 2 and 3 are not present, but, as you pointed out, sometimes the numbers are missing.
There seems to be at least two manufacturers of these connectors.
Next time I remove my battery I will look to see which connector it has.

Update 2/26: my battery connector does not have the 1, 2, 3 labels.

 

[jom]

Update 02/26/19:
As per Juiced Bikes, the shorter pin ("+") of the male connector of the "Receiver / Downtube Battery Lock Interface Set for Current Series / Wide Format" is by design (not a manufacturing problem, as I thought), intended to allow for the "offset of the plug angle" when inserting the battery.

 

[AZOldTech]

Brian, I understand that the same "envelope" of the 2-socket connector is also used for a 5-socket connector. The additional 3 sockets, when present, are used for signals, not for power. Usually the labels +, -, 1, 2,3 are displayed despite that sockets 1, 2 and 3 are not present, but, as you pointed out, sometimes the numbers are missing.
There seems to be at least two manufacturers of these connectors.
Next time I remove my battery I will look to see which connector it has.

Update 2/26: my battery connector does not have the 1, 2, 3 labels.

BTW, I do not own a Juiced bike, but since my 2 ebikes also use Reention dorado type batteries, FWIW I recently became aware of the difference between a 5pin and 2pin connector (see pictures below). The 3 smaller pins are guide/stability pins and they do not carry any signal or power. They are there just to make sure that the + and - pins are always in the correct center position and more importantly stay there through frame shaking/vibration. That would make sense when you have high current and vibrations involved. So I will not be surprised to see all future Reention dorado frame connection and batteries move to this new 5pin connector to avoid the problems that ever high current and vibrations cause. JMHO. BTW, on the pictures below, the 3 small indentions that are shown on one battery female connector are drilled through on the other battery female connector in order for the battery to fit in the 5pin connector. So just drilling through these 3 tiny holes will make sure the battery fits in both 2pin and 5pin connectors (even though you will only get the benefits with the 5pin frame connector).

 

[treal512]

Received my CCX sometime in Nov of 2018 and I am starting to have this problem as of the last 1-2 weeks. Didn't think anything of it at first, but now it happens regularly on my commutes. I've read over most of this thread, but still am not sure where to start other than a velcro strap. I am currently having warranty problems with Juiced- they are not honoring my warranty despite being the original owner, etc. I will post more on that later (hopefully it resolves), but for now my main issue is this is my main mode of transportation and it has been getting worse over the last few days. Power drops out randomly, even with VERY little bumping in the road. After this happens I will pull over, unlock the battery, and quickly push it back into place at the top end where the connectors are and usually this works, but sometimes it requires a few adjustments before the rig will turn back on. Based on my experience, it seems like it is only an issue between the top of the battery connector (male) and the top of the downtube receiver (female). There is absolutely ZERO play in my battery seating on the downtube, so I am not sure how a velcro could help me. When I hear others with this problem, they seem to be experiencing some form of battery looseness, but I do not have that even in the slightest- yet I still have power drops.

 

[roadandmtbebikes]

I vacillate on my thoughts about Mike's posts. I'm leaning towards the fact that he's a guy with a ton of experience on the eBike industry and vocal with his opinions. Sometimes I think he has an agenda as the bike I was looking at has a few posts from him knocking it but when reading his other posts he expresses both negative and positive input. He likes what he likes and has been selling them for years and that's not unusual.

Where I grew up there were farmers that only bought one brand of tractor or truck. They never, ever, changed. Dodge guys. Massey-Ferguson guys. John Deere guys. My dad was a Ford guy. We never had a ranch truck in 60 years that wasn't a Ford. I asked him why one day and he said that his first truck was a Chevrolet and it had tons of trouble. He then bought a Ford and never changed - even though my formative years were filled with having to fix our Ford trucks! He also had a bad John Deere tractor once and never changed from Massey after that.

If Mike has been working on eBikes for 20 years and he bought one Chinese kit-type bike and it was a lemon then he has evidence why he doesn't want to sell them. If people come into his shop four times a week with Chinese kit-bikes with problems he's going to form his opinion based upon not only direct evidence he has experienced but also what he hears from others in the industry and reads. I have no problem listening to him and learn a lot. It's all good food for thought and we all win.

I am new to all of this and readily admit I know next to nothing. It's all based upon what I've read and we all know how that goes.

I would say that this website is probably the authoritative site for eBikes in the United States. There might be large ones in the World but since I live in the US I'm interested in this site. If you take a look at the Brand Forums you'll see that the number of Threads and Posts for Juiced and Rad total more than all of the other vendors combined. Those two companies have the most interest according to the number of people that are interested in their products. Nobody is even close - maybe Specialized comes in a distant third.

These two companies are going to be targets because they are doing something that interests the consumer.

Just my humble opinion. I followed Tesla since 2009 and bought one in 2012. I've seen it all with electric cars and their early detractors. They are still out there in droves. I read a lot, joined forums like this one, listened to EVERYBODY and formed my opinion. I've been very happy with that decision and hopefully will be as happy with this one.

This is a bit unfair to Mike. Let's use common sense here. Juiced is offering twice the capacity in watt hours compared to established manufacturers (1K watt hours vs. 500 watt hours) at $1K less than major brands like Giant and Trek. The ccx and rcx cost anywhere from $2200 to $2500 whereas the giant and trek cost $3200 and $3600 respectively. Not only does juiced offer twice the watt hours, they offer 52v instead of 36v batteries. These batteries should offer far more power and range. Specialized offers a 700 watt hour battery. But their turbo levo costs a staggering $8,300, nearly 4X the price of the ccx or rcx which itself offers 40% additional watt hours compared to the very high capacity turbo levo.

How are they able to meet a price point that is 1/4 the price of the turbo levo yet offer superior power (in theory) and range? Obviously, all of their parts are off the shelf. Aside from their 52volt battery which simply packs more cells in a larger enclosure. No real innovation there. But a taller, heavier enclosure with more cells is going to stress the contact points inordinately, probably to a greater degree than they were designed for (with 500 watt hour capacity in mind or close to it).

Second, they eliminate all dealers. But the most important form of cost cutting is pushing for high production numbers with low QC from factories that will meet their desired wholesale price point.

Instead of acknowledging the reality of these staggeringly obvious design flaws and low QC announced endlessly by customers on every social media and web platform available, you instead resort to an elaborate ad hominem attack which is 100% speculative and completely obviates any attempt to examine the evidence at hand about battery design and 1st hand customer reports of intermittent power. And that's not to mention the other QC problems: rusty frames, defective controllers, defective battery contact points, etc.

I take any report of defects or lapses in customer service very seriously, as we all should. Having said that, mike himself seems to have no evidence of large numbers of reports of defects from biktrix, only from juiced. What is biktrix doing right in terms of design and/or customer service that juiced isn't? For one thing, biktrix's price points are significantly higher, perhaps a sign of higher QC or sourcing from different, higher quality manufacturers? It certainly seems plausible and these are questions worth pursuing.

But these bizarre tangents about your relatives just get us absolutely nowhere in terms of furthering our understanding how these bicycles are designed and sourced and ultimately supported (or not). There must be a more constructive and informative way at getting accurate information about what's going on behind the scenes so to speak. Throwing mike under the bus as a crusty old fogey or even a loon is totally unacceptable.

 

[jom]

Received my CCX sometime in Nov of 2018 and I am starting to have this problem as of the last 1-2 weeks. Didn't think anything of it at first, but now it happens regularly on my commutes. I've read over most of this thread, but still am not sure where to start other than a velcro strap. I am currently having warranty problems with Juiced- they are not honoring my warranty despite being the original owner, etc. I will post more on that later (hopefully it resolves), but for now my main issue is this is my main mode of transportation and it has been getting worse over the last few days. Power drops out randomly, even with VERY little bumping in the road. After this happens I will pull over, unlock the battery, and quickly push it back into place at the top end where the connectors are and usually this works, but sometimes it requires a few adjustments before the rig will turn back on. Based on my experience, it seems like it is only an issue between the top of the battery connector (male) and the top of the downtube receiver (female). There is absolutely ZERO play in my battery seating on the downtube, so I am not sure how a velcro could help me. When I hear others with this problem, they seem to be experiencing some form of battery looseness, but I do not have that even in the slightest- yet I still have power drops.

@treal512 , I received my ccx Nov 15, same problem, my suggestions are:

Don't use the bike if it has an intermittent power problem. If you have a poor connection between battery and frame connectors, you will spoil the electrical contacts very quickly.

Remove the battery and observe if the battery (female) connector sleeves are damaged. Usually the battery connector sleeves are the first to fail. Very likely they will show some sign of degradation, but may be usable.

Assuming the connectors are in usable condition, install the battery, turn the power on and the display on, and tap with your hand on the right side of the battery. Try this without and with velcro straps. Power should not quit. I ordered straps from Amazon, 2 inch wide by 24 inch long. Your local hardware store may carry some straps that you could use.

If power still quits, then remove the battery, remove the receiver/lock, disconnect the black and red wires by separating the yellow flat connectors, unscrew the large silver nut that keeps the frame connector to the receiver/lock, remove the connector, remove the o'ring between connector and receiver/lock, reassemble. Be careful to properly install the connector back in the correct position and tighten the silver nut. Now you will gain about an extra millimiter of pin engagement between female and male connectors by removing the oring. Install battery and straps. It should work ok.

If the connectors are no longer usable I would order new connectors. Until you receive new connectors I would bypass them. If Juiced don't have connectors in stock, you may need to order similar connectors from Reention.

 

[treal512]

@treal512 , I received my ccx Nov 15, same problem, my suggestions are:

Don't use the bike if it has an intermittent power problem. If you have a poor connection between battery and frame connectors, you will spoil the electrical contacts very quickly.

Remove the battery and observe if the battery (female) connector sleeves are damaged. Usually the battery connector sleeves are the first to fail. Very likely they will show some sign of degradation, but may be usable.

Assuming the connectors are in usable condition, install the battery, turn the power on and the display on, and tap with your hand on the right side of the battery. Try this without and with velcro straps. Power should not quit. I ordered straps from Amazon, 2 inch wide by 24 inch long. Your local hardware store may carry some straps that you could use.

If power still quits, then remove the battery, remove the receiver/lock, disconnect the black and red wires by separating the yellow flat connectors, unscrew the large silver nut that keeps the frame connector to the receiver/lock, remove the connector, remove the o'ring between connector and receiver/lock, reassemble. Be careful to properly install the connector back in the correct position and tighten the silver nut. Now you will gain about an extra millimiter of pin engagement between female and make connectors by removing the oring. Install battery and straps. It should work ok.

If the connectors are no longer usable I would order new connectors. Until you receive new connectors I would bypass them. If Juiced don't have connectors in stock, you may need to order similar connectors from Reention.

I will admit, I skimmed most of this thread due to the length, but after hearing your direct recommendation, @jom (thank you), of not riding the bike until making some adjustments, I've read the entire thread. I think I should make a few importance details be known so we can hopefully identify a trend and help each other work towards a solution.

1. I purchased and received my CCX right after Black Friday, so pretty much the same time as you jom. Current mileage is just under 500 mi and estimating the cut-offs having started around 2 weeks ago, I would say this problem started on my odo at around the 400 mi mark. To re-confirm, my battery has no play when attached to the frame/downtube. Even pressing on the battery to the left does nothing in terms of movement or power disruption. My commute consists of all road riding. There are some uncomfortable and bumpy areas, but by no means is it anything remotely off-road or rowdy. I have a full suspension MTB for that.
   
   
2. For @bikerjohn's question- I have removed and reinstalled my battery maybe <2-3 times in total prior the power issues. With that said, I have inspected my male/female pins (which I had backwards in my OP), and have determined I have what appears to be the first signs of arc pin damage due to low contact. I also looked at the link provided for the Juiced recommendation on pin socket/sleeve depth (https://support.juicedbikes.com/hc/...-Battery-Discharge-Port-Socket-Pins-pushed-in) and would say mine might be slightly more recessed than the first picture, but no where near the depth of the second one.
   
   
3. I am willing bet @jinim's success in his battery replacement + velcro strap has a lot to do with him having not removed the new battery since the initial installation. Would I be right?

So that leads me to a lot more questions:

• Why is Juiced sending out replacement batteries instead of replacement male/female connectors?
• If Juiced said, "the shorter pin ("+") of the male connector of the "Receiver / Downtube Battery Lock Interface Set for Current Series / Wide Format is by design (not a manufacturing problem, as jom thought), intended to allow for the "offset of the plug angle" when inserting the battery." Does that mean they themselves have introduced this problem with proprietary design? Or am I wrong in assuming this particular spot on the battery was designed by them?
• I too would like to create the connection between the battery and bicycle before installing/slapping-in the battery like @Vic_1949 has mentioned. Is the only thing keeping us from doing this the Juiced warranty?
• Has anyone tried swapping in the Reention connector yet?

I'll take pictures of my connectors tomorrow.

 

[jom]

I will admit, I skimmed most of this thread due to the length, but after hearing your direct recommendation, @jom (thank you), of not riding the bike until making some adjustments, I've read the entire thread. I think I should make a few importance details be known so we can hopefully identify a trend and help each other work towards a solution.

1. I purchased and received my CCX right after Black Friday, so pretty much the same time as you jom. Current mileage is just under 500 mi and estimating the cut-offs having started around 2 weeks ago, I would say this problem started on my odo at around the 400 mi mark. To re-confirm, my battery has no play when attached to the frame/downtube. Even pressing on the battery to the left does nothing in terms of movement or power disruption. My commute consists of all road riding. There are some uncomfortable and bumpy areas, but by no means is it anything remotely off-road or rowdy. I have a full suspension MTB for that.
   
   
2. For @bikerjohn's question- I have removed and reinstalled my battery maybe <2-3 times in total prior the power issues. With that said, I have inspected my male/female pins (which I had backwards in my OP), and have determined I have what appears to be the first signs of arc pin damage due to low contact. I also looked at the link provided for the Juiced recommendation on pin socket/sleeve depth (https://support.juicedbikes.com/hc/...-Battery-Discharge-Port-Socket-Pins-pushed-in) and would say mine might be slightly more recessed than the first picture, but no where near the depth of the second one.
   
   
3. I am willing bet @jinim's success in his battery replacement + velcro strap has a lot to do with him having not removed the new battery since the initial installation. Would I be right?

So that leads me to a lot more questions:

• Why is Juiced sending out replacement batteries instead of replacement male/female connectors?
• If Juiced said, "the shorter pin ("+") of the male connector of the "Receiver / Downtube Battery Lock Interface Set for Current Series / Wide Format is by design (not a manufacturing problem, as jom thought), intended to allow for the "offset of the plug angle" when inserting the battery." Does that mean they themselves have introduced this problem with proprietary design? Or am I wrong in assuming this particular spot on the battery was designed by them?
• I too would like to create the connection between the battery and bicycle before installing/slapping-in the battery like @Vic_1949 has mentioned. Is the only thing keeping us from doing this the Juiced warranty?
• Has anyone tried swapping in the Reention connector yet?

I'll take pictures of my connectors tomorrow.

My answers:
- Juiced does not send battery connectors. I assume they may consider not everybody is qualified to change that connector. They do send frame receiver/lock assemblies with the corresponding connector. Making changes to the battery has the potential to injure people if they don't know how to handle it.
- A shorter pin is by design, they emailed to me. I believe that the original Reention will work, probably better. The Reention connector has both pins same length.
- I tried not to make changes that could void the warranty, if the small changes I made solved the problem. Removing the oring and using straps worked for me. The oring is for water protection, but I don't use the bike under wet conditions.
- No, I have not installed the Reention conn. I have the Reention connector for the day the one installed fails and the bike is no longer under warranty. Removing the oring, tightening the silver nut and using straps is working for me. My bike is abt 570 miles now. I notice the first power failure at about 40 miles.

The proposed changes are easy to implement. Give them a try and if the problem persists, go to the more drastic surgery.

 

[jinim]

I will admit, I skimmed most of this thread due to the length, but after hearing your direct recommendation, @jom (thank you), of not riding the bike until making some adjustments, I've read the entire thread. I think I should make a few importance details be known so we can hopefully identify a trend and help each other work towards a solution.

1. I purchased and received my CCX right after Black Friday, so pretty much the same time as you jom. Current mileage is just under 500 mi and estimating the cut-offs having started around 2 weeks ago, I would say this problem started on my odo at around the 400 mi mark. To re-confirm, my battery has no play when attached to the frame/downtube. Even pressing on the battery to the left does nothing in terms of movement or power disruption. My commute consists of all road riding. There are some uncomfortable and bumpy areas, but by no means is it anything remotely off-road or rowdy. I have a full suspension MTB for that.
   
   
2. For @bikerjohn's question- I have removed and reinstalled my battery maybe <2-3 times in total prior the power issues. With that said, I have inspected my male/female pins (which I had backwards in my OP), and have determined I have what appears to be the first signs of arc pin damage due to low contact. I also looked at the link provided for the Juiced recommendation on pin socket/sleeve depth (https://support.juicedbikes.com/hc/...-Battery-Discharge-Port-Socket-Pins-pushed-in) and would say mine might be slightly more recessed than the first picture, but no where near the depth of the second one.
   
   
3. I am willing bet @jinim's success in his battery replacement + velcro strap has a lot to do with him having not removed the new battery since the initial installation. Would I be right?

So that leads me to a lot more questions:

• Why is Juiced sending out replacement batteries instead of replacement male/female connectors?
• If Juiced said, "the shorter pin ("+") of the male connector of the "Receiver / Downtube Battery Lock Interface Set for Current Series / Wide Format is by design (not a manufacturing problem, as jom thought), intended to allow for the "offset of the plug angle" when inserting the battery." Does that mean they themselves have introduced this problem with proprietary design? Or am I wrong in assuming this particular spot on the battery was designed by them?
• I too would like to create the connection between the battery and bicycle before installing/slapping-in the battery like @Vic_1949 has mentioned. Is the only thing keeping us from doing this the Juiced warranty?
• Has anyone tried swapping in the Reention connector yet?

I'll take pictures of my connectors tomorrow.

I never take the battery off the bike and keep it velcro’d to the frame at all times. I don’t think that makes a difference, but who knows, maybe it helps. My bike was working fine with no strap for a few months before the problem developed. All it takes is for a little looseness to develop, which led to arcing that doesn’t show up with an obvious leeway of battery to frame.

 

[AZOldTech]

BTW, I would be interested to know if anyone, whose warranty has run out of course, tried to bypass the connectors altogether by soldering the +/- leads directly on to the battery and only charge the battery on the bike... Or even if someone ordered and changed the Reention connector from the 2pin to the 5pin and drilled out the tiny holes on the female end of the battery?

 

[BrianMura]

Once that large silver nut allows the connector to recede then problems start to happen. The large silver nut could recede due to having poor threads, not being tightened enough, warped from plastic degradation, or being jostled from use. With enough time, it seems that all bikes will eventually hit this. However, I'm sure most maybe will be on their next bike by then... I "never" take the battery off the bike, but I plan to periodically take apart the battery and enclosure to check on the movement of the large silver nut...

@Court , @Tora Harris , could we have a discussion about this issue?

 

[BrianMura]

Dbf Crell on YouTube sent me a comment a while back:

"My bottom battery bracket came cracked, so I epoxied the crack and most of the backside to strengthen it. Then I did the same to the top mount, including the battery plug so it cannot become loose, ever! "

Maybe this is something we can do after the warranty expires for preventative maintenance.

 

[bikerjohn]

O.K., understanding a Reention connector design is prone to intermittent connection failure with higher weight battery packs, the easiest safeguard is to minimize battery removal and installation cycles. Leaving the battery connected to the CCX during recharging is the logical first action to improve connection reliability. After deciding early on that battery weight was going to be an issue, I have done all recharge cycles while the battery stays connected on the bike. So far so good for 203 miles of use with my CCX! And if it comes to the point where that no longer is having the effect of maintaining a reliable connection then using straps will be my next step.

Consider, there are operational situations where it may seem as if the battery is having connection issues which could be a misinterpretation of normal function.
Here are two motor hesitation situations worthy noting:
1) An incidental bump/tap of a brake lever on a bumpy ride. 2) Using the throttle lever as the bike speed approaches 20 mph.
In either situation power to the motor is momentarily cut-off, but there is never a loss of power to the LCD matrix display.

 

[youth]

I have have around 2,000 miles on my CCX so far & fortunately have not experienced this yet. I know the feeling though because my original Cross Current from 2016 eventually developed a connection problem while on the 2nd battery. I got over 18,000 miles out of the bike before it was retired. It was a sensation of losing power for under a second while the display stayed on. I got around it by using a zip tied tightened enough to keep constant pressure on the battery but loose enough it could still be slid out by hand.

 

[bikerjohn]

I have have around 2,000 miles on my CCX so far & fortunately have not experienced this yet. I know the feeling though because my original Cross Current from 2016 eventually developed a connection problem while on the 2nd battery. I got over 18,000 miles out of the bike before it was retired. It was a sensation of losing power for under a second while the display stayed on. I got around it by using a zip tied tightened enough to keep constant pressure on the battery but loose enough it could still be slid out by hand.

Reads like you've experienced 18000 miles of smiles! Trouble free riding without power interruptions should be the expectation for all of us. The zip tie method of battery stabilization sounds interesting. Do you have any images showing how the technique worked?

On my first ebike, an EG Zurich 350IX , there were times under hard pedaling effort, when the power to the motor would suddenly cut-out for a brief moment (half a second or so). I chalked it up to momentarily over-stressing the BMS. Anyway, I didn't have any overt concerns since the bike worked predictably in every other situation. Perhaps this type of power down situation, where there is a pulsing or a very momentary (split second) power cut-off, is a normal characteristic of how all batteries manage power during hard load use?

 

[youth]

Reads like you've experienced 18000 miles of smiles!

Ther were many problems along the way that may be would be less with a top tier brand. But I felt I got enough value out of it to come back with a CCX.

The zip tie is just a suggestion in place of Velcro. I kept it near the top where the connection is. Gave it enough slack so I could slide it off, but tight enough to stay put. My thought is that a zip tie might provide more constant tension like a rubber band vs a Velcro strap. At the time it was also what I had handy.