Carbon flat bar - Tesoro Vado Skitch?

[RidgeRunner500]

The Cannondale seems the best value at the moment, but any thoughts on these, or alternatives?

 

[stompandgo]

I own a Cannondale Tesoro Neo X Speed. It is big and heavy, sort of a cross between a commuter bike and a mountain bike, and has a fairly aggressive fit. It is a true Class 3 bike in the US market, not sure about Canada, and thus is very fast. The Bosch Performance Speed drive unit has way more power than I need. I converted it to a dual battery setup for long range. My build thread is here.

I have also built a few Tesoro X1's, X2's and X3's in the shop. They are designed and built very well, as you would expect from a major brand such as Cannondale. The lower cost bikes use hub drives. If you can get any of these Tesoros on closeout, they are a great value. I paid $2,149 for my Neo X Speed via retail. That's in the same price range as an Aventon or Velotric. The headlight alone (Supernova M99 Pro Mini) is $300 by itself.

The Tesoro is a great bike, but I wanted something lighter and easier to transport, so I just bought a Pinarello Nytro E5 Allroad. It's similar to the Skitch, but uses the TQ-HPR50 lightweight mid-drive. I got it below cost because I work at a dealer, but they are stopping sales of this bike in the US and are closing them out. I don't know what's happening in Canada. It's worth a phone call to find out if they'll offer you a deal. The Allroad is based on the carbon Grevil E5 gravel frame, with all the Pinarello niceties like full internal cable and wire routing, and those cool flip-out through axles. The TQ drive unit has an open electronic architecture, so it will send data to ANT+ computers, and supports Shimano Di2 electronic shifting with an adapter.

We don't sell Specialized, nor have I owned a Specialized bike, so no help for me there. I'm told that there's a Specialized Fanboy here named Stefan that owns two Vados. Look him up.

Good luck.

 

[RidgeRunner500]

Thank you very much. I will see about availability of the Pinarello.

To be clear, I was speaking about the Cannondale “Tesoro Carbon” bikes, with Bosch SX Sprint mid-drive motors - I find the Cannondale naming a little confusing. This model is not available in Canada, but I am planning a trip to the U.S.

 

[stompandgo]

I haven't seen or ridden one yet. The Bosch Performance Line Sprint has more power and torque than the HPR50, but even with the CompactTube 400, weighs a few pounds more. It's used on several gravel bikes like the Canyon ON:Fly.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Specialized Turbo Vado SL 2 6.0 Carbon (EQ and non-EQ versions)

I had a pleasure to demo ride that e-bike (EQ) in March this year.

Can you see a big grin on my face?

I am a long time rider of an older (alloy) Vado SL Gen 1 (18000+ km, 4+ years). My needs evolved from an EQ to a sporty non-EQ variant, and I also made my SL 1 fit my body. As I mounted the SL 2, I found a perfect fit of that size M e-bike, and I could just keep it I could feel a lot of oomph from that 50 Nm SL 1.2 motor, and appreciated the 520 Wh battery (expandable with 160 Wh Range Extenders).

The EQ weighs 18 kg while the non-EQ is 16 kg. It is equipped with a 12-speed Shimano Deore XT drivetrain and excellent Tektro brakes.

The one thing that can be said about Specialized Turbo e-bikes is these have the most advanced electronics and connectivity in the market*. Regarding the warranty, it is transferrable, with the "lifetime frameset warranty" for the first owner. (I tried that and it works!)

The only thing I was not really fond of was the new handlebar remote (the previous version was better) but it is a minor thing, the matter of being used to.

I greatly recommend these e-bikes.
---------------
*) @stompandgo can say something about the Bosch connectivity There is a reason he chose the Pinarello Nytro with TQ system as his next e-bike...

 

[stompandgo]

Bosch's electronics are what I would call "quasi-open". They are not truly open because they do not (currently) support open standards like Bluetooth BLE and ANT+ LEV which allow connection to a multitude of aftermarket devices. Where the Bosch system is weakest IMO is in navigation. You have to use either a Bosch display unit or your phone. The Bosch display units are nicely made, but have limited functionality compared to a Garmin Edge or Wahoo. I would never mount my phone on the handlebars, so that's a non-starter for me. With the Tesoro, I use the Kiox for bike data and a Garmin for everything else. Two displays.

One thing the Tesoro Carbon and Vados come with is a handlebar remote. On the Pinarello, that's an optional accessory from TQ.

 

[BlackHand]

The 3 bikes you mention have fairly distinct strengths/focuses. What is important to you and what kind of riding do you do?

Offroad capability: Skitch > Vado SL > Tesoro
Urban riding: Tesoro>=Vado SL>Skitch
Range: Vado SL > Tesoro=? Skitch
Adjustability/customization: Skitch>Vado SL>Tesoro

Stefan brings up warranty and mfg support - you should maybe check with each brand to see how that works over international borders. I'm not sure any of them will send a 45kph drive unit to a dealer in Canada if needed.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

I'm not sure any of them will send a 45kph drive unit to a dealer in Canada if needed.

Bosch drive units are hardcoded for a regional speed restriction in the factory. It is correct no U.S. dealer would send a U.S. motor to Canada. Specialized motors are "blank" when they are out of factory. These must be programmed by a dealer in the geographical region. Therefore, a new Specialized motor will be programmed to 32 km/h in Canada, and there is no way the Canadian dealer could do otherwise.

 

[RidgeRunner500]

The bikes have enough overlap in the commuter/light trail realm to be reasonable substitutes.

I would be buying the bike in the U.S., it it’s the Cannondale or the Pinarello.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

The bikes have enough overlap in the commuter/light trail realm to be reasonable substitutes.

I would be buying the bike in the U.S., it it’s the Cannondale or the Pinarello.

The point is: If your e-bike breaks, you will need to bring it in the United States again...
Why not Specialized?

 

[RidgeRunner500]

The point is: If your e-bike breaks, you will need to bring it in the United States again...
Why not Specialized?

If I buy a Vado, I would get it in Canada, but it is significantly costlier than the Cannondale (50%) and the Pinarello (25%).

 

[Stefan Mikes]

You pay for the capabilities, quality and... warranty.

 

[RidgeRunner500]

You pay for the capabilities, quality and... warranty.

Can you please explain the quality and capability advantages of the Vado over the Cannondale?

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Can you please explain the quality and capability advantages of the Vado over the Cannondale?

The quality is probably similar. It is different about the capabilities.

Cannondale/Bosch:

• It is confined to its own ecosystem. You can get the e-bike information on the display or smartphone app only.
• Tuning the Bosch system (adjusting the e-bike to your own needs) is overly complicated
• The Bosch system offers several mutually exclusive and fixed assistance modes you cannot tune
• The Bosch system does not work with any popular bike GPS computers such as Garmin, Wahoo or Hammerhead
• Usually, the e-bike manufacturer selects the cheapest display (Purion) for the e-bike. If you want something more advanced (as seeing the battery level in % instead of bars) then you have to buy a more expensive display such as Kiox and pay for installing it
• Bosch SX motor can get 600 W if you can pedal at the cadence of 110. Can you?
• The Bosch E-Bike GPS navigation as found in the most expensive displays is a joke.

Specialized:

• You can get the e-bike information on the display, the smartphone app or on Garmin, Wahoo, or Hammerhead
• The motor tuning system is as easy as an A-B-C. You have three presets and can define the Assist and Max Motor Power for any of them in 5% increments on a single chart
• You can instruct the e-bike to ride for a predefined Distance and Elevation Gain and still return on the battery
• You can instruct the e-bike to ride for a predefined time and still return on the battery
• You can connect a Heart Rate monitor to the e-bike and get the assistance adjusted the way your heart rate would never exceed a specified threshold
• You can adjust the assistance in 10% increments as you ride to keep up with your group (Micro Tune)
• You get both Range and Range Trend on your display.

Not sure what Cannondale warranty is but the Specialized warranty is transferable and it is "lifetime frameset warranty" for the first owner (confirmed, it works).

Pinarello with its TQ HPR 50 motor is expected to have connectivity similar to Specialized but nobody has promised other features I described.

 

[RidgeRunner500]

The quality is probably similar. It is different about the capabilities.

Cannondale/Bosch:

• It is confined to its own ecosystem. You can get the e-bike information on the display or smartphone app only.
• Tuning the Bosch system (adjusting the e-bike to your own needs) is overly complicated
• The Bosch system offers several mutually exclusive and fixed assistance modes you cannot tune
• The Bosch system does not work with any popular bike GPS computers such as Garmin, Wahoo or Hammerhead
• Usually, the e-bike manufacturer selects the cheapest display (Purion) for the e-bike. If you want something more advanced (as seeing the battery level in % instead of bars) then you have to buy a more expensive display such as Kiox and pay for installing it
• Bosch SX motor can get 600 W if you can pedal at the cadence of 110. Can you?
• The Bosch E-Bike GPS navigation as found in the most expensive displays is a joke.

Specialized:

• You can get the e-bike information on the display, the smartphone app or on Garmin, Wahoo, or Hammerhead
• The motor tuning system is as easy as an A-B-C. You have three presets and can define the Assist and Max Motor Power for any of them in 5% increments on a single chart
• You can instruct the e-bike to ride for a predefined Distance and Elevation Gain and still return on the battery
• You can instruct the e-bike to ride for a predefined time and still return on the battery
• You can connect a Heart Rate monitor to the e-bike and get the assistance adjusted the way your heart rate would never exceed a specified threshold
• You can adjust the assistance in 10% increments as you ride to keep up with your group (Micro Tune)
• You get both Range and Range Trend on your display.

Not sure what Cannondale warranty is but the Specialized warranty is transferable and it is "lifetime frameset warranty" for the first owner (confirmed, it works).

Pinarello with its TQ HPR 50 motor is expected to have connectivity similar to Specialized but nobody has promised other features I described.

Thank you for this - it is very helpful.

For me, I don’t believe the advantages would be worth a 50% premium.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

If you want to go cheap, go cheap

 

[RidgeRunner500]

If you want to go cheap, go cheap

Look, I get that you have an abiding love for Specialized, but perhaps it blinds you to reality.

I don’t consider a $4,000 USD Cannondale “cheap”. Do you? It is on sale, at 27% off. The Vado is full price, no sale, and seems over the money in the current market.

At regular prices in the US, the Vado is 11% more than the Cannondale. That seems about right. At 50% more, I don’t see it. Your mileage obviously varies.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

The whole issue is you cannot demo ride these e-bikes.

 

[stompandgo]

The quality is probably similar. It is different about the capabilities.

Cannondale/Bosch:

• Tuning the Bosch system (adjusting the e-bike to your own needs) is overly complicated
• The Bosch system offers several mutually exclusive and fixed assistance modes you cannot tune

True with BES2, not true with BES3 (Smart System). The Bosch eBike Flow app allows tuning of assistance and dynamics. Maybe not to the level of Specialized, but I don't have a Specialized to compare it to.

Specialized:

• You can get the e-bike information on the display, the smartphone app or on Garmin, Wahoo, or Hammerhead

TQ does this. The Pinarello only has the system controller display on the bike, but will transmit to a bike computer.

• The motor tuning system is as easy as an A-B-C. You have three presets and can define the Assist and Max Motor Power for any of them in 5% increments on a single chart

TQ does this via the TQ app. You can adjust assistance and dynamics for each of three assist levels - Eco, Mid, and High.

• You can instruct the e-bike to ride for a predefined Distance and Elevation Gain and still return on the battery

Don't you need the optional Mastermind display for this? TQ does not have this functionality today.

• You can instruct the e-bike to ride for a predefined time and still return on the battery - see above
• You can connect a Heart Rate monitor to the e-bike and get the assistance adjusted the way your heart rate would never exceed a specified threshold - see above
• You can adjust the assistance in 10% increments as you ride to keep up with your group (Micro Tune)

TQ does not currently have this.

• You get both Range and Range Trend on your display.

I'm not sure if TQ transmits range to the computer display.

Not sure what Cannondale warranty is but the Specialized warranty is transferable and it is "lifetime frameset warranty" for the first owner (confirmed, it works).

If you register your Pinarello, you get another three years of warranty on everything and also for the frame impact program.

Cannondale bikes have a lifetime warranty for the original owner.

I'm not taking anything away from Specialized, just clearing the air here.