Buying/Configuring a Vado

[California]

Oh, I have many friends in the Polish and Czech recumbent bike community!
Once, I was lazily riding my Vado (then 5.0, 45 km/h) on a long Warsaw bike path when a man on a recumbent/aero bike overtook me at high speed. Having some battery charge surplus, I went in Turbo and started pursing him. He was stopped by traffic lights. As we stood side by side, we nodded to each other and examined the bikes. Then he started riding again, becoming a kind of a vanishing point! The pursue lasted for several kilometres. When he was stopped by the traffic lights again, I shouted at him from a distance: "Hey, wait! I want to have a chat with you!" We exchanged some pleasantries (I thanked him for giving me a good workout), and eventually he smiled and said: "I will never ever be overtaken by an e-bike!" Funny thing, the man was not a part of the recumbent bike community of Warsaw!

I am a solo rider myself, just want to relax and enjoy nature and not compete with others. With a recumbent its kind of hard to cycle with anyone else as the cadence is so different.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

I am a solo rider myself, just want to relax and enjoy nature and not compete with others. With a recumbent its kind of hard to cycle with anyone else as the cadence is so different.

My "recumbent" friends often set off for group rides. (I even was on a nice trip with two of them, both females). The recumbent bikes are fast and good for long distance riding! I can still remember the feat of my female friend who was riding a recumbent in the Czech mountains with her male friend to make an Imperial Century and 4,500 ft elevation gain on a day!

 

[California]

My "recumbent" friends often set off for group rides. (I even was on a nice trip with two of them, both females). The recumbent bikes are fast and good for long distance riding! I can still remember the feat of my female friend who was riding a recumbent in the Czech mountains with her male friend to make an Imperial Century and 4,500 ft elevation gain on a day!

I did a century (I guess that's imperial) many years ago but it didn't include 4,500 ft! Yes recumbents are great in the flats and for long distance. Super comfortable.

 

[dynamic]

Tero X is designed for the hills.

Because it has a 10-50 cassette. If you matched the vado chain ring it now has a boost in high gear vs the 11 tooth of the vado. It will be faster.

Anyway, the regular tero is way closer to a vado. I haven’t examined the tero x for geometry. My LBS doesn’t have one yet.

What about just going downhill fast

All bikes go downhill fast. But some gearing let you contribute. And stuff like the vado SL feel really good at speed. The vado does as well. I am assuming their hybrid tires play a strong piece in that. Smooth center and stubby sides.

Here, the hills are such that even the higher geared bikes are not going to add much/anything to a downhill sprint. But it can still be fun when you aren’t just pointlessly spinning your legs.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Because it has a 10-50 cassette. If you matched the vado chain ring it now has a boost in high gear vs the 11 tooth of the vado. It will be faster.

If you can maintain the cadence. I mean, let us assume you can fit a bigger chainring on the Tero X (it is not guaranteed; Tero X is not a Vado or Tero), Now, getting at the proper cadence to be faster than a Vado requires far more leg power from the rider, and faster cadence if both chainrings are the same size. As the assistance stops at 28 mph, you could in theory only be faster on a descent.

Anyway, the regular tero is way closer to a vado. I haven’t examined the tero x for geometry.

• Geometry
• Tyres

All bikes go downhill fast. But some gearing let you contribute.

Typically, faster than 28 mph.

 

[dynamic]

If you can maintain the cadence

If the gearing allows the higher gear inches and the rider can’t maintain the cadence, the rider won’t be able to go faster on the vado either. The bottleneck will be the rider not the bike.

The stock bikes should give the speed advantage to vado for the same rider. If you match the rider, chain ring and tires, the tero x should pull out ahead. Whether or not the rider will be as comfortable on that tero x as on the vado, I can’t say. But mechanically, the tero x can be faster.

 

[mschwett]

If the gearing allows the higher gear inches and the rider can’t maintain the cadence, the rider won’t be able to go faster on the vado either. The bottleneck will be the rider not the bike.

The stock bikes should give the speed advantage to vado for the same rider. If you match the rider, chain ring and tires, the tero x should pull out ahead. Whether or not the rider will be as comfortable on that tero x as on the vado, I can’t say. But mechanically, the tero x can be faster.

not sure what you mean. it’s pretty simple, whether or not the rider can contribute to a downhill is whether or not the gearing allows a reasonable cadence to be faster than the unpowered rolling speed. most people can’t comfortably pedal faster than 100 rpm, which on the stock tero x is 31.3 mph.

vado 5, it’s 35.8mph.

typical road bike, it’s 37.5

of course you can change the chain ring, but you can also change the cassette (I put a cassette with a 10t small cog on my creo) but out of the box the tero x is not a fast bike. it’s a mountain bike. I would be surprised if the tero x frame allowed as big a chain ring as the vado, which is probably why it comes with a 10t !!

 

[dynamic]

not sure what you mean.

I am responding to this:

let us assume you can fit a bigger chainring on the Tero X (it is not guaranteed; Tero X is not a Vado or Tero), Now, getting at the proper cadence to be faster than a Vado requires far more leg power from the rider

If the chain rings are matched, the tero is a faster bike mechanically due to the 10t cog. Take that first image and put a 48 in instead of a 38. It's now faster than the "typical" road bike. A 44 makes it equal to a vado. Obviously doing this causes some loss on the low end.

I don't know if it can take such a chain ring, but if it can, you just got a bike that is suitable for normal hills (at least equal to the vado) and blazingly fast on the flats. Maybe some ability to add speed to downhill too.

That said, I would love a 10/50 vado. That would make my day.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

That said, I would love a 10/50 vado. That would make my day.

Rebuild the wheel with the hub involving the 10t freehub driver. Replace the drivetrain with a 12 speed 10-50t cassette, derailleur and shifter.

I do not need the 10t cog myself as I find it difficult to pedal the 11t cog at proper cadence on the flat even in Turbo. As downhill speed can easily be over 40 mph, I do not need to pedal on mountain descents either.

What I, however, plan doing for the next mountain holiday is to install a Shimano M5100 11-speed derailleur and a 11-51t M5100 cassette as well as a 38t chainring for my Vado.

 

[mschwett]

I am responding to this:



If the chain rings are matched, the tero is a faster bike mechanically due to the 10t cog. Take that first image and put a 48 in instead of a 38. It's now faster than the "typical" road bike. A 44 makes it equal to a vado. Obviously doing this causes some loss on the low end.

I don't know if it can take such a chain ring, but if it can, you just got a bike that is suitable for normal hills (at least equal to the vado) and blazingly fast on the flats. Maybe some ability to add speed to downhill too.

That said, I would love a 10/50 vado. That would make my day.

it’s just an odd point, since you have no idea if a 48t would fit on a tero X (it would be shocking if you could!) but we know you can put a 10-xx cassette on a Vado with a $50 driver swap. on a levo, for example, people say you can’t go beyond 38t.

note how close the wide part of the chain stay is to the chainring - and remember that this moves relative to the crank on a full suspension bike. also note that the chain keeper has virtually no clearance at 38t - obviously it would have to be removed. mountain bikes are for mountains / trails, not paved roads where you can go fast!

more meaningful IMO to compare the stock bikes, or compare configurations that you know are possible. you can also put an even bigger chainring on the Vado.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

we know you can put a 10-xx cassette on a Vado with a $50 driver swap

Can you add a driver to the classic HG freehub?

P.S. I confirm it was not possible to install any bigger chainring than 38T on a Trance E+, an e-MTB precisely for the reasons you explained. Having a 38T chainring and a 10t smallest cog and riding an e-MTB on the flat fast leads to a premature wear of the smallest cogs. My talented brother who rides the Trance E+ for his commutes has a stock of the smallest cogs, he occasionally dismantles the cassette and replaces the worn cogs. As he can do it easily with his skill and tools, and because the replacement sprockets are far cheaper than the new cassette, he accepts the premature sprocket wear as the feature of that e-bike. (Funnily, he replaces the small cogs and the chain together but can do it pretty rarely!)

 

[dynamic]

it’s just an odd point, since you have no idea if a 48t would fit on a tero X

This is biker bias thinking.

Cycling is particularly susceptible to bias based on “how things are”. People who are willing to own multiple bikes for different dedicated purposes miss this particular point.

People who are cycling for other reasons appreciate a more general bike. A tero x with high speed road riding capability would allow one bike to rule them all.

A vado with 10/50 and a 48+ chain ring would do the same thing. I can’t say which I would prefer more. If I end up liking full suspension, the choice would be easy if both those bikes existed.

I have yet to ride one of these that has a really strong high end. The priority current is still the highest gear inches I have ridden. I could go for more. The IGH spent a ton of time in the highest gear (and maybe that’s part of the issue, but it is automatic, sooooo…. Not something I can fix ).

I wouldn’t be surprised if I end up being one of those people that need to replace the 10T frequently.

 

[mschwett]

This is biker bias thinking.

Cycling is particularly susceptible to bias based on “how things are”. People who are willing to own multiple bikes for different dedicated purposes miss this particular point.

People who are cycling for other reasons appreciate a more general bike. A tero x with high speed road riding capability would allow one bike to rule them all.

…

and this is inexperience/arrogance bias, lol. look at the photo of the tero x more closely and tell me you can change that chain ring to a 48t. your statement and comparison is simply wrong because it’s based on the assumption that you can put a 48t chainring on a mountain bike. there are real reasons why MTB aren’t designed for huge chainrings, including ground clearance and chainstay clearance around wider tires to start.

the idea that the compromises in different vehicle types can be designed around by amateurs who don’t have “biker bias” is naive at best.

i own several bikes, and ride many more, for a wide range of reasons spanning taking the kids to school to exercise to fun and socialization. that only makes it MORE clear why things are made differently with different capacities and limits

 

[dynamic]

and this is inexperience/arrogance bias, lol. look at the photo of the tero x more closely and tell me you can change that chain ring to a 48t. your statement and comparison is simply wrong because it’s based on the assumption that you can put a 48t chainring on a mountain bike. there are real reasons why MTB aren’t designed for huge chainrings, including ground clearance and chainstay clearance around wider tires to start.

the idea that the compromises in different vehicle types can be designed around by amateurs who don’t have “biker bias” is naive at best.

i own several bikes, and ride many more, for a wide range of reasons spanning taking the kids to school to exercise to fun and socialization. that only makes it MORE clear why things are made differently with different capacities and limits

Are you suggesting that there is no geometry between a vado and a tero that could be better at off road than a vado but still have a larger chain ring for flat speed? Can’t be done?

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Are you suggesting that there is no geometry between a vado and a tero that could be better at off road than a vado but still have a larger chain ring for flat speed? Can’t be done?

He meant the geometry of Tero X excludes the possibility of installing any bigger chainring. It's about the clearance between the chainring and the chainstay.

 

[mschwett]

Are you suggesting that there is no geometry between a vado and a tero that could be better at off road than a vado but still have a larger chain ring for flat speed? Can’t be done?

not at all. those bikes exist and they're called gravel bikes! to some they're the best of both worlds, to some the worst. you'll also note that they tend to have pretty small chain rings, for some of the same reason mountain bikes do, but accommodate a much wider range of chain rings, as you seek.

the idea that you can make a tero x a high speed road cruiser by changing the chainring is just really far off base, that's all.

 

[dynamic]

those bikes exist and they're called gravel bikes!

Many gravel bike’s don’t have suspension. And I think you guys would be the first to say that a gravel bike isn't really mountain bike capable at all.

So, to be specific, are you saying it's not possible to have a larger chain ring on a full suspension e-bike? (I get that the tero X may not allow for that).

 

[mschwett]

Many gravel bike’s don’t have suspension. And I think you guys would be the first to say that a gravel bike isn't really mountain bike capable at all.

So, to be specific, are you saying it's not possible to have a larger chain ring on a full suspension e-bike? (I get that the tero X may not allow for that).

well, underbiking is a big thing. people bomb crazy singletrack on gravel bikes, basically everything short of rock gardens. it takes more skill, i'm sure, but it's not my thing so i can't say firsthand. the entire purpose of a mountain bike is to handle extremely rugged terrain which typically includes very steep climbs, which typically precludes a big chain ring for obvious reasons. throw in a motor and i suppose it's less ridiculous, but the ground and frame clearance issues are still going to be huge problems. at the very least i'm guessing the wheelbase would have to be quite a bit longer to allow the chainstays to run straight for a while and then flare out to accomodate MTB sized tires. wheelbases have been getting longer, but generally that makes the bike much less maneuverable on tight, rough terrain. or, you could decrease tire clearance, or suspension travel, or increase q factor... again, no free lunch here - there are reasons, real ones, why things are they way they are. eventually what you'd have would not be a mountain bike. there's a lot of debate about these in-between bikes - are they the best of both worlds, or the worst. depends which characteristics you value, i suppose.

go take a look at the millions of references out there to "biggest chainring full suspension mountain bike," you'll find the limits are closer to 38t than 48t!

the most damning thing, to me, is that the purpose of a big ring is to go fast downhill, or maybe with a tailwind. operative word : FAST. wind resistance is such a huge huge huge (said once for each power ) factor in going fast that pedaling to do so on a relatively upright bike with bad aero and big tires just seems silly to me. the things that make a bike comfortable or adept at all terrain are really opposed to going super fast on paved roads.

 

[dynamic]

the things that make a bike comfortable or adept at all terrain are really opposed to going super fast on paved roads.

There are absolutely compromises. But, if you are looking for comfort and speed with the ability to ride (comfortably) on most terrain, full suspension + higher volume hybrid tires seems like a great starting point.

For reference, R&M super delite, homage and delite are all full suspension e-bikes with HS (non-hs use smaller chain ring, not class 3 either) chain models using 48T chainring and 11-50 ( mountain versions using 11-51 and 38T chain ring. I don't see much geometry difference between mountain and non-mountain ).

But, I think this is where bike people bias problems are. The answer to them is always "get a gravel, a road and a mountain bike and do the one you want to do with that bike". "Normal" people don't want 3 bikes to go on 3 different terrain types. The *masses* would likely appreciate a relatively comfortable bike that would do all of those things "well enough". For me, I have those 3 terrain types on nearly any route over 7 miles. The answer for me is obviously a trailer to tow the other 2 bikes and swap.

The tero x appears to be the closest thing in the specialized line up to the R&M bikes listed above. But if it can't handle the 48T chain ring, fine. I do wish specialized would do something that crosses more boundaries. I have not done an exhaustive search for other brands.