Bosch vs other motor reliability

[heatlamp]

I'm looking to buy a step-thru ebike in the $2K range. I want a local dealer, and have narrowed my search to a new Espin Reine and demo Gazelle Medeo T9. They end up a couple of hundred dollars of each other.

I've ridden them both, I think either will be fine (around town, to gym and grocery store, 20 mi weekend rides in hilly terrain). I think the Gazelle is better built, but is slower, has no throttle and is not quite as much fun to ride. The Gazelle battery also has less capacity, but I don't think that'll be an issue for me.

I'm wondering if I should be concerned that the motor on the Espin is an unknown quantity (TTIUM), vs the well regarded Bosch Active Line plus in the Gazelle. I have no idea about motor reliability in general, but I do have a friend who's gotten 10K mi out of an old Bafang motor.

Any thoughts?

Thanks, Jim

 

[Mass Deduction]

I think there are two parts to your question: the longevity of the parts on the bike, and the likelihood of future spare parts availability.

I can't even guess at how long TTIUM parts last, as I've never heard of them. So a best guess would have the Bosch parts lasting at least as long, I guess? But it's likely that Bosch will be producing spare part for their system far longer than an unknown quantity like TTIUM. So that gives the Gazelle the edge, IMO, so long as it otherwise meets your needs.

 

[Mass Deduction]

For what it's worth, if you haven't seen it yet EBR's review of the Espin Reine and the TTIUM mid-drive were actually pretty positive overall: https://electricbikereview.com/espin/reine/

I still think long term support from TTIUM is the big question mark here, but if you're willing to take the risk (or don't care about the long term) then you might get something more powerful and/or more feature rich now. Things that stand out for me when comparing the two:

- drastically more powerful motor for the Espin Reine

- better tires on the Gazelle

- probably better range for the Espin (only 20 miles/32 km on high assist for the Gazelle, and high assist is only 50 Nm of torque vs. high assist being 80 Nm of torque, so you could probably use medium on the Espin and get similar assist to the Gazelle on high yet get vastly longer range)

- there's a throttle on the Espin, which is a benefit if you like to not pedal some of the time, and a detriment if you want to use the bike in places that are class 1 only; the Gazelle being class 1 is the most legally unimpeded in North America for where it can ride

- there is a small weight advantage (4 pounds) to the Gazelle

I hate to say it, and I'm surprising myself by saying this, but after looking at both of them more deeply I'd probably go with the Espin Reine. Bosch will probably be providing spare parts for a longer time, and their motor may last longer before it wears out, and the Gazelle's a little lighter, and it has much better tires. But with its underpowered motor and absolutely terrible range (typical of all Bosch Active LIne units unfortunately), I'd probably have more fun on the Espin. The probable fun factor improvement would make me willing to take a chance on the no-name motor.

I would, however, take the Espin on an extended test ride to guarantee it's as good as the specs suggest. The Espin's motor is 60% more powerful on paper, so I'd be looking to take it on a hilly test ride and make sure that that's true in fact. If you're flat-adverse like me, though, if you buy the Espin I'd probably upgrade the tires to something like the ones that come on the Gazelle.

When in doubt, spend a little more and get an e-bike that has both a powerful and long range name brand motor. Generally something with a Shimano STePS 6100 motor is going to be the best bang for the buck in a brand name long range motor that attempts to keep the price down. But if it's down to just these two then, if a test-ride confirms the power and range advantage to the Espin, I'd go that way. Bosch Performance Line motors are good stuff, but the Bosch Active Line series is consistently underwhelming for me.

 

[steve mercier]

My wife and I have 20,000 kms on our Bosch motors and batteries with zero problems so far. I am satisfied they are reliable. One thing I disagree with Mass Deduction about is regarding the range of the active line. I have been riding a loaner bike with the active line and the 400 powerpack for a week now. While it is true that its not as fast or powerful as the Performance line it seems to get terrific mileage. Granted this bike has narrower tires and is lighter than our CX,s but this motor gets better range with a 400 than our 500 powerpacks do on the CXs. Today I rode about 30k and when I got home it still had 100 k remaining on ECO.

 

[Over50]

...I have been riding a loaner bike with the active line and the 400 powerpack for a week now. While it is true that its not as fast or powerful as the Performance line it seems to get terrific mileage. Granted this bike has narrower tires and is lighter than our CX,s but this motor gets better range with a 400 than our 500 powerpacks do on the CXs...

I see fantastic range on the Active Lines (mostly Eco/Tour rider). I'm usually on track for 50+ miles on my Gen 2 Vektron on a PP 400. Similar to total mileage I get from my Haibike with the CX on ideal weather days with a PP 500.

 

[Deleted member 18083]

I'm wondering if I should be concerned that the motor on the Espin is an unknown quantity (TTIUM).

Jim …
Yes, you should be concerned.

TTium's website outlines their history. It's very short. Stay away from them.

Gazelle + Bosch = a double serving of quality and experience.
… David

 

[Mass Deduction]

My wife and I have 20,000 kms on our Bosch motors and batteries with zero problems so far. I am satisfied they are reliable. One thing I disagree with Mass Deduction about is regarding the range of the active line. I have been riding a loaner bike with the active line and the 400 powerpack for a week now. While it is true that its not as fast or powerful as the Performance line it seems to get terrific mileage. Granted this bike has narrower tires and is lighter than our CX,s but this motor gets better range with a 400 than our 500 powerpacks do on the CXs. Today I rode about 30k and when I got home it still had 100 k remaining on ECO.

The Gazelle's estimated ranges are:

Eco range = 60 Mi (96 km)
Tour range = 35 Mi (56 km)
Sport range = 25 Mi (40 km)
Turbo range = 20 Mi (32 km)

I would say those ranges aren't very exciting for a motor that's only 50 Nm of torque. Shimano STePS' estimates ranges are 75km on high and 150 km on low for their 40 Nm and 60 Nm motors.

Did you spend some time riding past the cut-out? Because your range is nearly infinite when you do. If that prediction of an additional 100 km on low came true then you'd be getting better range than is typically suggested by Bosch for that motor/battery combo, which suggests some riding past the cut-out. Which is cool if so! I aspire to ride past the cut out as much as possible every ride. I make it a challenge.

If that's not the case, then you have an interesting anecdote on your hands that bears further study (since I have an Active Line bike here I can put to the test).

I continue to believe that my statement remains correct about the range of the Espin probably being longer than the Gazelle. If the Espin's motor really is 60% more powerful in practice (and not just on paper), then you could run the Espin in a lower mode of assist than the Gazelle to approximately match up the torque, and therefore probably get longer range on the Espin for a similar power-assist experience. But I certainly encourage the OP to try both bikes on extended test-rides to confirm this before purchasing either of them.

 

[Mass Deduction]

I see fantastic range on the Active Lines (mostly Eco/Tour rider). I'm usually on track for 50+ miles on my Gen 2 Vektron on a PP 400. Similar to total mileage I get from my Haibike with the CX on ideal weather days with a PP 500.

Good and bad range is subjective. In my experience most Active Line bikes with 400 Wh battery advertise 27-ish km of range on highest assist. Similarly, most Active Line Plus/400 Wh bikes advertise 35-ish km range on high. I do not consider those especially impressive ranges. That wouldn't satisfy me, or most electric bike owners I regularly interact with. Even if it satisfied me now, I'd probably replace the battery years earlier (at considerable expense) than if I got longer range bike.

Sure, almost any e-bike can get lots of range on the lowest level of assist, and some riders do ride their e-bikes in low a lot of the time so that is a relevant point. But in my testing I typically get similar range on medium assist on most other brands as I do on low-assist on Bosch. So when I say I don't find Bosch's range to be impressive, it's within that context. Bosch is the market leader so clearly many people are very satisfied with Bosch overall, however. And I will say that I like that Bosch has two medium levels of assist (effectively a medium-low and a medium-high).

Edit to add: I typically look to high assist as the best way to compare range, as high assist usually uses a motor's full power, whereas low assist varies significantly from one brand to another. Yamaha even has an ultra low level of assist called Eco+. So comparing one bike to another on Eco will produce unfair comparisons. Whereas if you're comparing two motors with similar levels of max torque, and you're comparing them on high, you get a more apples-to-apples comparison of range.

 

[steve mercier]

The Gazelle's estimated ranges are:

Eco range = 60 Mi (96 km)
Tour range = 35 Mi (56 km)
Sport range = 25 Mi (40 km)
Turbo range = 20 Mi (32 km)

I would say those ranges aren't very exciting for a motor that's only 50 Nm of torque. Shimano STePS' estimates ranges are 75km on high and 150 km on low for their 40 Nm and 60 Nm motors.

Did you spend some time riding past the cut-out? Because your range is nearly infinite when you do. If that prediction of an additional 100 km on low came true then you'd be getting better range than is typically suggested by Bosch for that motor/battery combo, which suggests some riding past the cut-out. Which is cool if so! I aspire to ride past the cut out as much as possible every ride. I make it a challenge.

If that's not the case, then you have an interesting anecdote on your hands that bears further study (since I have an Active Line bike here I can put to the test).

I continue to believe that my statement remains correct about the range of the Espin probably being longer than the Gazelle. If the Espin's motor really is 60% more powerful in practice (and not just on paper), then you could run the Espin in a lower mode of assist than the Gazelle to approximately match up the torque, and therefore probably get longer range on the Espin for a similar power-assist experience. But I certainly encourage the OP to try both bikes on extended test-rides to confirm this before purchasing either of them.

No MD, I do not recall riding past the cutout, but I am a senior citizen so maybe I forgot to turn the bike on? ( -: But seriously I was just plodding along with my wife in tow switching modes and gears to suit the terrain. I was on a 45 lb bike with hybrid tires and when I got home I still had around 100km left on the 400 battery. This is a brand new bike and battery, so this is as good as it will get but I think that is laudable range. However Heatlamp was asking about the reliability and he did not seem overly concerned about the range and David nailed that part.

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

As other members stated here, avoid Espin.
You will be hard pressed to find replacement parts 2-3 years down the line. It is a Chinese motor with no product support system in the N American continent. They tried to copy Bosch by using smaller chain-ring but I just don't think they have right QC or engineering design or support plan in place.

 

[Mass Deduction]

As other members stated here, avoid Espin.
You will be hard pressed to find replacement parts 2-3 years down the line. It is a Chinese motor with no product support system in the N American continent. They tried to copy Bosch by using smaller chain-ring but I just don't think they have right QC or engineering design or support plan in place.

If low maintenance and high resale was the #1 goal, I agree that the Gazelle is the right choice and it's not even close. If riding in Eco is the plan then I'd go this way too.

If riding in higher levels of assist is the goal, and you're accepting of the idea that this is a ride-it-until-it-dies proposition, then I'd test-ride them both and see if the 60% increase in power claim is anything close to reality. If it was, then I might be tempted by the more powerful motor. Most rides I leave the motor in high, and then challenge myself to ride faster than the cut-out. I'm a speed demon at heart, I guess.

I'm not a fan of disposable bikes. That's why this would be such a difficult choice for me, as I see it as a choice (at least for me) between a bike that's likely more reliable vs. a bike that's likely more fun.

 

[heatlamp]

Thanks all for the replies, interesting discussion. I'll ride them both again, I might also consider the Espin flow with its well known and easily replaceable Bafang hub motor.

 

[Mass Deduction]

Thanks all for the replies, interesting discussion. I'll ride them both again, I might also consider the Espin flow with its well known and easily replaceable Bafang hub motor.

Do you plan to do much hill climbing? Hub motors are less appealing than a mid-drive on the hills. They can have good get up and go on the flat, but are less appealing the steeper the terrain gets. I'd go with the Gazelle over the Espin Flow any day if durability/reliability/replaceability is the goal.