Bosch powered bikes coming to the US
- Thread starter Chris Nolte
- Start date
Ravi Kempaiah
Well-Known Member
- Region
- Canada
- City
- Halifax
Ravi Kempaiah
Well-Known Member
- Region
- Canada
- City
- Halifax
Brambor,
Do you ever feel or have a slight thought at the back of your mind about Turbo being a overpriced bike?
I noticed a a very interesting discussion about Turbo and it's price. No doubt that it is a phenomenal bike and from one of the industry giants but not many people can shell out that kind of money. Here is a discussion if you're interested.
Also, ebike business is very lucrative. I have several chinese and taiwanese friends and have discussed this with them. Company, warranty matters but the markups are too good and that's why you see so many new companies popping up. Many of them are in right business for wrong reasons. Fortunately, Grace is not one of them. They are becoming popular in Germany and lot of good reviews on Pedelec.co.uk.
Brambor
Well-Known Member
Hi Ravi,
The price I paid for the Turbo was really a maximum I would ever consider paying for an e-bike. I estimate paid $1500 more than what I would have paid for a Stromer Elite equipped the way I wanted.
I sold a bunch of stuff from my basement and old cameras from my photographer past and made good money. The money was there to be spent and I did not need anything else. If I had to reach into family money I would not spend this much.
I would have most likely bought a Motiv Shadow or maybe a Stromer Elite.
It would have probably been the Shadow with extra battery.
The Stromer I liked very much too but there were just a few details that gave me doubts. The weight of the bike, the user reviews after 1 year of use that I read on German pedelec forum were great although there seemed to be about 20% of bikes that had to replace the motor after about a year of heavy use. Then I went to two dealers in my area and handled the Stromer. I liked it a lot although I really thought that going over 50lbs for a bike was getting to be too much for my liking. I knew that the way I would like my Stromer to look was with the addition of the City Kit and a cargo basket (more weight). I also realized that with my 3 bike carriers on my car I would have an issue to securely fasten the Stromer because its front fender would interfere with the clamping mechanism. I researched the fender's flexibility and adjustability and found that there was very close tolerance on spacing from the tire and little wiggle room to accomodate my bike carrier. I also noted the slight noise of the motor of the Stromer. I also discussed with one of the dealers the first generation of Stromers that had widespread issues with the software not regulating overheating and burning the motors left and right. Stromer 2 release price went beyond what I would pay even if I had the money at my disposal. Also noting the up and coming offerings from Haibike or newer Grace models were more expensive than the Turbo.
The Grace Easy I considered briefly but the lack of availability, lack of local dealer and lack of battery power turned me off. The prices for the newer models seem to equal or even surpass the Turbo price yet their integrated lights aren't engineered as well as Turbo, their components appear slightly below the Turbo and the motor of the Turbo appears to be quieter and my gut feeling gives me more confidence with the Turbo's motor after reading the long term reviews.
Injecting here my thoughts about Bosh - I am by no means a competent critic but to my comprehension and understanding of the Bosh system I currently believe that the asking prices for Bosh powered bikes are too high for what I would like to pay, the noise of the motor is not to my liking for a bike ride, the shape of the battery attached to the bike frame is not very appealing to me for the price that is currently asked and the reviews so far are not entirely confidence inspiring for the price that is currently asked. I think they are on the right track though with freeing the front and rear wheel of electric motor but I also think there is still room for improvement in the actual motor housed in the area of the pedals.
The Turbo looked great from the start, without the fenders - bike rack issue solved. The Turbo was fast right away, had already included integrated lights, had slick tires I wanted, looked more like a road bike which is what appealed to me more. Turbo appeared tight and rigid. The few things that worried me was the squeal of the brakes and the lack of battery power. The doubts were immediately erased when I found out they now included much stronger battery. I did not yet know that the brake squeal was also solved in the new model. The Turbo had a decent warranty backed by local dealers. More importantly on the German and Swiss Turbo forums I read long term use reports from several owners. Only one had to replace the motor after one year. The rest of the owners had zero issues with the bike and put big miles on it every day.
I also read the crowd on endless sphere about the bike. The endless sphere crowd will appeal to me more when I decide to build my own e-bike but as they stand now I am not in tune with their opinions. Majority of the guys there build really what can be described as Electric Motorcycles - too heavy, too powerful, too much emphasis on throttle ... not my cup of tea ... really.
The only justification I for the price of Turbo was to use it for commuting. To substitute my cost for driving a car and to make me healthier in return. I had computed that if I did purchase the Turbo it would pay for itself in 2 years. I had the money. The dealer was very fair and honest and the bike was available in a few weeks. I put a deposit on it knowing that I will still be able to back out if something was amiss during the pickup.
At the pickup I test drove the bike and the brake squeal was gone. The bike rode great without any battery assist. The bike felt right for me. Deal was done.
That is probably the best way I could hurl out of me my reasoning. I'm sure I left some things out but feel free to ask more questions. I will know much better after I get some miles on my bike commute. I'm starting this Friday. Up until now (and tomorrow) we had bad weather and I had crucial committments every evening that required a car. It is still winter here and starting Friday is not really a great idea but I am just itching to give it a go.
The price I paid for the Turbo was really a maximum I would ever consider paying for an e-bike. I estimate paid $1500 more than what I would have paid for a Stromer Elite equipped the way I wanted.
I sold a bunch of stuff from my basement and old cameras from my photographer past and made good money. The money was there to be spent and I did not need anything else. If I had to reach into family money I would not spend this much.
I would have most likely bought a Motiv Shadow or maybe a Stromer Elite.
It would have probably been the Shadow with extra battery.
The Stromer I liked very much too but there were just a few details that gave me doubts. The weight of the bike, the user reviews after 1 year of use that I read on German pedelec forum were great although there seemed to be about 20% of bikes that had to replace the motor after about a year of heavy use. Then I went to two dealers in my area and handled the Stromer. I liked it a lot although I really thought that going over 50lbs for a bike was getting to be too much for my liking. I knew that the way I would like my Stromer to look was with the addition of the City Kit and a cargo basket (more weight). I also realized that with my 3 bike carriers on my car I would have an issue to securely fasten the Stromer because its front fender would interfere with the clamping mechanism. I researched the fender's flexibility and adjustability and found that there was very close tolerance on spacing from the tire and little wiggle room to accomodate my bike carrier. I also noted the slight noise of the motor of the Stromer. I also discussed with one of the dealers the first generation of Stromers that had widespread issues with the software not regulating overheating and burning the motors left and right. Stromer 2 release price went beyond what I would pay even if I had the money at my disposal. Also noting the up and coming offerings from Haibike or newer Grace models were more expensive than the Turbo.
The Grace Easy I considered briefly but the lack of availability, lack of local dealer and lack of battery power turned me off. The prices for the newer models seem to equal or even surpass the Turbo price yet their integrated lights aren't engineered as well as Turbo, their components appear slightly below the Turbo and the motor of the Turbo appears to be quieter and my gut feeling gives me more confidence with the Turbo's motor after reading the long term reviews.
Injecting here my thoughts about Bosh - I am by no means a competent critic but to my comprehension and understanding of the Bosh system I currently believe that the asking prices for Bosh powered bikes are too high for what I would like to pay, the noise of the motor is not to my liking for a bike ride, the shape of the battery attached to the bike frame is not very appealing to me for the price that is currently asked and the reviews so far are not entirely confidence inspiring for the price that is currently asked. I think they are on the right track though with freeing the front and rear wheel of electric motor but I also think there is still room for improvement in the actual motor housed in the area of the pedals.
The Turbo looked great from the start, without the fenders - bike rack issue solved. The Turbo was fast right away, had already included integrated lights, had slick tires I wanted, looked more like a road bike which is what appealed to me more. Turbo appeared tight and rigid. The few things that worried me was the squeal of the brakes and the lack of battery power. The doubts were immediately erased when I found out they now included much stronger battery. I did not yet know that the brake squeal was also solved in the new model. The Turbo had a decent warranty backed by local dealers. More importantly on the German and Swiss Turbo forums I read long term use reports from several owners. Only one had to replace the motor after one year. The rest of the owners had zero issues with the bike and put big miles on it every day.
I also read the crowd on endless sphere about the bike. The endless sphere crowd will appeal to me more when I decide to build my own e-bike but as they stand now I am not in tune with their opinions. Majority of the guys there build really what can be described as Electric Motorcycles - too heavy, too powerful, too much emphasis on throttle ... not my cup of tea ... really.
The only justification I for the price of Turbo was to use it for commuting. To substitute my cost for driving a car and to make me healthier in return. I had computed that if I did purchase the Turbo it would pay for itself in 2 years. I had the money. The dealer was very fair and honest and the bike was available in a few weeks. I put a deposit on it knowing that I will still be able to back out if something was amiss during the pickup.
At the pickup I test drove the bike and the brake squeal was gone. The bike rode great without any battery assist. The bike felt right for me. Deal was done.
That is probably the best way I could hurl out of me my reasoning. I'm sure I left some things out but feel free to ask more questions. I will know much better after I get some miles on my bike commute. I'm starting this Friday. Up until now (and tomorrow) we had bad weather and I had crucial committments every evening that required a car. It is still winter here and starting Friday is not really a great idea but I am just itching to give it a go.
Ravi Kempaiah
Well-Known Member
- Region
- Canada
- City
- Halifax
I appreciate your thoughtful response, Brambor.
You're lucky to have stumbled on ebikes AND to have monetary resource to purchase a Turbo. Good for you for setting the trend.
The next few years will see a spike in the # of bikes and improvement in battery technology.
Even though I love discussing the details of technology, I just don't have the time and finesse to build a good-looking, well integrated bike on my own. So, just like you, I got a pre-built bike.
Bosch entered the market very recently. Not even 5 years (debuted at Eurobike 2010) and this is their gen 2 system. Gen 4 or 5 will likely be much more sophisticated. Of course, as the market matures, prices drop. Right now, it may not be best time to collect ebikes.
From any perspective, investment on a good ebike is worthwhile, even at MSRP because there are so many fringe benefits to this.
Specialized is probably the biggest name out there and I am sure you will have excellent time on it. I'll look forward to hearing your thoughts as you put more miles on it.
PS: I avoid riding on Fridays because especially on the way back, you'll see all kinds of people driving like crazy.
You're lucky to have stumbled on ebikes AND to have monetary resource to purchase a Turbo. Good for you for setting the trend.
The next few years will see a spike in the # of bikes and improvement in battery technology.
Even though I love discussing the details of technology, I just don't have the time and finesse to build a good-looking, well integrated bike on my own. So, just like you, I got a pre-built bike.
Bosch entered the market very recently. Not even 5 years (debuted at Eurobike 2010) and this is their gen 2 system. Gen 4 or 5 will likely be much more sophisticated. Of course, as the market matures, prices drop. Right now, it may not be best time to collect ebikes.
From any perspective, investment on a good ebike is worthwhile, even at MSRP because there are so many fringe benefits to this.
Specialized is probably the biggest name out there and I am sure you will have excellent time on it. I'll look forward to hearing your thoughts as you put more miles on it.
PS: I avoid riding on Fridays because especially on the way back, you'll see all kinds of people driving like crazy.
Wow that is annoying Eddy.. Hope someone can get that fixed for you.. Read the fix, it doesn't seem to do anything but clean and grease?
Larry Pizzi
Active Member
@EddieJ - Are you in the UK? If so, Raleigh is the Haibike distributor and can help you with warranty service. This may be something simple or it may be some problem with the bottom bracket assembly in the drive system. In any event, its surely under warranty. Also, I'd recommend that you do not continue riding it. Get it into a servicing Haibike dealer, ASAP.
I've had a very similar thought Brambor... This past year at Interbike (2013 in Vegas) I started seeing more ebikes with the Bosch system and it kind of made me sad. The unique variety in drive systems was gone and all that you had left was the size and color of the frame, maybe a different suspension or wheelset.
I guess in a lot of ways that's how regular bikes are now (they all have a frame, handlebars, wheel etc.) and the next thing will be a motor. I hope we keep some of the variety around. I personally want to see a carbon bow built right into the seat post that extends forward into the space between the top tube and downtube. This bow would be pulled and flex with stored energy as cyclists engaged their brakes and then could be used as a mechanical turbo boost when taking off!
I don't think the physics actually work out... but in my steam-punk fantasy electric bike land it seems pretty awesome
EddieJ
Well-Known Member
Hi Larry, many thanks for the advice, it was appreciated.
Because of me buying the bike direct from Germany, and the potential hassle of trying to get a UK dealer to repair the bike, I actually did the work myself.
The whole job from start to finish took approx 10 minutes to complete. Bosch even appear to put extra grease inside of the motor to use for it.
I used this pdf for the repair which was kindly supplied by KTM UK.
Reparaturanweisung_Behebung_Knackgeraeusche_EN_final.pdf
Larry Pizzi
Active Member
Good to hear this Eddie. Glad that the problem is resolved!Hi Larry, many thanks for the advice, it was appreciated.
Because of me buying the bike direct from Germany, and the potential hassle of trying to get a UK dealer to repair the bike, I actually did the work myself.
The whole job from start to finish took approx 10 minutes to complete. Bosch even appear to put extra grease inside of the motor to use for it.
I used this pdf for the repair which was kindly supplied by KTM UK.
Reparaturanweisung_Behebung_Knackgeraeusche_EN_final.pdf
.
LouisQ
Member
Larry Pizzi
Active Member
@LouisQ The Classic+ Line is not and has never been available in the US. The US system is the Performance Line http://www.bosch-ebike.de/en/usa/home.html
LouisQ
Member
This is an international forum, my conversations thus far on mid drives have been with a rider in the UK, and it speaks to Bosch quality IMO. The name carries brand recognition that many EBike companies aren't privileged to have, giving Bosch a hand up. I don't think their product warrants the hand up. There are many who have been around much longer and I think will prove more reliable and sustainable for repair access.
Edit, I noticed you are with Currie. A perfect example of a company in the market deserving more attention then Bosch. BTW Any chance of accessing the Currie/Schwinn scooter tech sheets and data that was taken down from the Currie site? I have 4 I'm repairing as a project for low income neighborhood kids. While it's all very simple OEM specs on motors, controllers and any pertinent model info would be helpful. The kids love them. Models S350 and S500cd
Edit, I noticed you are with Currie. A perfect example of a company in the market deserving more attention then Bosch. BTW Any chance of accessing the Currie/Schwinn scooter tech sheets and data that was taken down from the Currie site? I have 4 I'm repairing as a project for low income neighborhood kids. While it's all very simple OEM specs on motors, controllers and any pertinent model info would be helpful. The kids love them. Models S350 and S500cd
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EddieJ
Well-Known Member
My current Performance motor hasn't been without it's issues, and neither has the Nyon system. I'm far from alone inrespect of problems with both. But as much as I hate to say it, you can't say fairer than the actions now being taken by Bosch in relation to the Classic line. It's taken them long enough though. I certainly wouldn't touch another mtb that is fitted with Nyon though, and I'm soon going to be removing the system.
Personally I feel that if Bosch don't up their game in relation to the product, then they are going to simply fall by the wayside with Yamaha, Shimano etc taking the lead.
Personally I feel that if Bosch don't up their game in relation to the product, then they are going to simply fall by the wayside with Yamaha, Shimano etc taking the lead.
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Ann M.
Well-Known Member
@Louis, not sure exactly what data you're looking for; I've worked on lots of these little scooters and all of the Currie 24V scooters spec very similar. There still is one data page on Currie Tech's site, http://www.currietech.com, that has their generic scooter troubleshooting diagram. What we have found, though was that the original Currie manufactured 3/4/or 6 pin throttle-controller setups aren't available but the most recent configuration using a 5 pin throttle/controller can be substituted; its better quality, too. If you don't mind changing connector ends, electricscooterparts.com offers some decent generic 24V controllers, with the amp output relative to the motor size it's mated to. All of their controllers work with generic 3-pin hall sensor throttles. You can keep those puppies going for years!
LouisQ
Member
Thanks Ann,
I'm having a great time with them and have two of three up and running. A fourth in a pile of pieces. Probably for parts scrounging. The S500 actually runs at 36v I'm not sure how long but It's being converted to an outrunner and getting front braking added to keep it safe at speed. There was a lot more data up that had better spec and the wiring diagrams. I'm sorting it out but original docs that went to dealers would be fun to have. There were published specs on the controllers too. Sadly I lost it all when my Windoze computer data got transferred to my Mac systems. I collected it all thinking someday in retirement I might find a few and play around. Well years later, and no docs. I have found escootparts and they've provided all sorts of misc bits and pieces. I just finished building a 7s5p 18650 batt for one and am probably gonna Lipo the hoy rod. They will run for years. One s350 has an odd rear brake setup. I was hoping to find a photo of it again. Old guys forget...
Wiring diagram for the 500cd would help as it has the 5 wire and brake motor cut out switch. I fixed it with a new wired brake lever, but am forever curious. They're my learning platform as I plan my 4th EBike build project. Anyway enough of my chatty Kathy. Thanks for the bits. If you ever come across someone that still has the dealer info, I still want it.
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