BMC Alpenchallenge AMP Road One

[Ebiker01]

Are you assuming it to be sluggish because it's 36v, or do you know it to be sluggish due to reviews and/or a test-ride?

The reason why I ask is a more efficient motor can do more with less. The upgrade from Shimano STePS 6000 to STePS 6100 brought with it a 20% increase in torque and a 25% increase in range on the exact same battery. To me, you want the lowest voltage/wattage/amperage motor you can get that will do the job because, all other things being equal, that should reduce weight, reduce cost, and improve range.

Put even more simply, I'd take a 10w LED lightbulb over a 60w incandescent lightbulb any day. It's not about how fast the unit can drain power, it's what it can do with that power.

I share your surprise about the downgrade in battery capacity for many of the 2020 Giant e-bikes, so I agree with your conclusion. I'm just curious about elements of how you got there!

I’ve ridden ebikes with 36v and 48v and based on experience those with 36v are just less responsive, especially wheyoubafd some weight , a 5lb lock, a spare battery , a 15lb backpack.
It may be responsive for a lighter person put a 215lb would not like it.
If the same ebike had 48v system the 215lb rider would buy it.
I didn’t rode the new Giant.

The other e road bike Specialized Creo at 6.5k is sold out....
Most e bikes maybe 90% of them have a 48volt system.

 

[bob armani]

It hasn't always been the case, the feature was added post-launch. It's tuneable within each mode via an app (iOS or Android). There are three pre-sets (low, medium, and high) for each each mode. STePS 8000 by default is set to high-Eco, low-Trail, high-Boost. Several youtubers have changed it to low-Boost so reduce the odds of spinning out when climbing, as one example of the utility of this. It occurs to me that changing Trail to medium or high might reduce a rider's reliance on Boost, which might improve range overall for many riders. Because it can be done quickly and easily via a mobile app over bluetooth, it's actually something that can be changed on the fly during a ride. Shimano has also extended this PAS tuning functionality to STePS 7000 as well, but not 5000/6000/6100 (at least not yet).

I can't speak to how they'd respond within the context of a speed dongle.

Great info. I currently have the Yamaha PW-X motor on my eMTB. I do not see anything on the horizon for them to implement similar tuning capabilities that I know of. I did a company inquiry and they indicated that it as only available through the eConnect app which has only been released to the EU market. I hope to see other motor mfgs follow suit with this feature.

 

[Mass Deduction]

I’ve ridden ebikes with 36v and 48v and based on experience those with 36v are just less responsive, especially wheyoubafd some weight , a 5lb lock, a spare battery , a 15lb backpack.
It may be responsive for a lighter person put a 215lb would not like it.
If the same ebike had 48v system the 215lb rider would buy it.
I didn’t rode the new Giant.

The other e road bike Specialized Creo at 6.5k is sold out....
Most e bikes maybe 90% of them have a 48volt system.

If you're talking about older e-bikes, and especially if you're talking about hub motor bikes, that makes perfect sense. But that's not the reality of the modern bike industry.

I could say that all lightbulbs at 40 watts and below are underpowered. I've used 40 watt incandescent lightbulbs before, and they were underpowered, but when I use 60 watt incandescent lightbulb they're great. So I recommend people not get 10 watt LED lightbulbs based on my experience with 40 and 60 watt lightbulbs in the past. See what I mean about how the power draw doesn't matter if it's not in context?

Like the example earlier of Shimano increasing both torque *and* range on the exact same battery with the upgrade from STePS 6000 to STePS 6100. It wasn't more wattage, the improvements came from drawing *less* wattage but doing more with each watt.

Computers are the same way, it's about the performance per watt, not increasing the watts the computer draws. Computers draw fewer watts than they used to, but do much more with each watt. If not for that, given how much more powerful they've become, you wouldn't be able to afford the power bill of owning a computer!

The future of e-bikes is drawing less power, but doing more with the power you draw. So I would ignore the wattage/voltage/amperage, and focus in on how much hill climbing power and how much range each e-bike offers. I'll take an efficient 36v bike that does a lot with each volt, over a 48v bike that uses power inefficiently. Hub motor e-bikes for years have focused on volts/watts/amps, but the future (at least with mid-drives) is to look at how many Nm of torque (measured at the crank) and the range you'll get with the battery you'll be using. Nothing's perfect, but that's the best indicator of the user experience of modern mid-drive e-bikes if all you've got is numbers to go by.

 

[bob armani]

If you're talking about older e-bikes, and especially if you're talking about hub motor bikes, that makes perfect sense. But that's not the reality of the modern bike industry.

I could say that all lightbulbs at 40 watts and below are underpowered. I've used 40 watt incandescent lightbulbs before, and they were underpowered, but when I use 60 watt incandescent lightbulb they're great. So I recommend people not get 10 watt LED lightbulbs based on my experience with 40 and 60 watt lightbulbs in the past. See what I mean about how the power draw doesn't matter if it's not in context?

Like the example earlier of Shimano increasing both torque *and* range on the exact same battery with the upgrade from STePS 6000 to STePS 6100. It wasn't more wattage, the improvements came from drawing *less* wattage but doing more with each watt.

Computers are the same way, it's about the performance per watt, not increasing the watts the computer draws. Computers draw fewer watts than they used to, but do much more with each watt. If not for that, given how much more powerful they've become, you wouldn't be able to afford the power bill of owning a computer!

The future of e-bikes is drawing less power, but doing more with the power you draw. So I would ignore the wattage/voltage/amperage, and focus in on how much hill climbing power and how much range each e-bike offers. I'll take an efficient 36v bike that does a lot with each volt, over a 48v bike that uses power inefficiently. Hub motor e-bikes for years have focused on volts/watts/amps, but the future (at least with mid-drives) is to look at how many Nm of torque (measured at the crank) and the range you'll get with the battery you'll be using. Nothing's perfect, but that's the best indicator of the user experience of modern mid-drive e-bikes if all you've got is numbers to go by.

I went from riding a 350w Dapu hub-driven commuter E-bike to a mid-drive 250w Yamaha system. I see a big difference in overall functionality in Nm of torque and distance. I usually ride in Eco mode and get plenty of power from the mid-drive and my ranges have increased dramatically. The Yamaha is a 2018 model, whereas the hub driven motor is from 2015. Based on your statements regarding , (drawing less power, but doing more), it looks like this theory is being applied based on my own experience with 2 different bikes. The hub drive simply does not feel like it is as efficient as the mid-drive by comparison.