BMC Alpenchallenge AMP Road One

[taco799]

That was actually the bike that started my research! It seems like a very nice bike, and if it's anything close to its rated weight of 27 pounds then that'd be very impressive. But the downsides to that bike are that is only has a 55 Nm motor, which I could live with, and only a 200 Wh battery, which I don't think I could live with when the BMC has a battery that's 2.5 times larger.

True but the BMC is limited to 20MPH. I know the motor can do 28 but, my understanding is BMC has limited it to 20 and won't increase that limit in the US even if you ask. (please correct me if I have this wrong as this is the only reason I haven't already bought the BMC bike)
The Igo bike you can choose your own settings is how I understood it from the Rep I talked to. Its default is a class 1 but, it can be a class 3 at will. But min range. But replaceable battery so you can carry 2-3 in a backpack and switch on the go. A smaller battery means less weight in your backpack as well.
The Domane + is the best of both world as it is a Class 3 but, of course that weighs 39 lbs.
The creo is the only one that is the best of all worlds, Range, Speed, Weight, but fails spectacularly at price of course by being 50% + more expensive.

Im working to get a custom framed wattwagon hopefully at about 3-4k with just lower end parts. That might be the best solution. It will be heavy but, should meet all other needs.

 

[Ebiker01]

True but the BMC is limited to 20MPH. I know the motor can do 28 but, my understanding is BMC has limited it to 20 and won't increase that limit in the US even if you ask. (please correct me if I have this wrong as this is the only reason I haven't already bought the BMC bike)
The Igo bike you can choose your own settings is how I understood it from the Rep I talked to. Its default is a class 1 but, it can be a class 3 at will. But min range. But replaceable battery so you can carry 2-3 in a backpack and switch on the go. A smaller battery means less weight in your backpack as well.
The Domane + is the best of both world as it is a Class 3 but, of course that weighs 39 lbs.
The creo is the only one that is the best of all worlds, Range, Speed, Weight, but fails spectacularly at price of course by being 50% + more expensive.

Im working to get a custom framed wattwagon hopefully at about 3-4k with just lower end parts. That might be the best solution. It will be heavy but, should meet all other needs.

The new Domane will have a 625wh pack and the new gen. 4 Bosch.- 2lb lighter.

With proper carbon upgrades (wheels, stem, seatpost, crank, handlebar) an additional 2lb is possible. 6k price plus 1k upgrades-7k. But Specialized is 9k.

And all this is while they still have regular high end analog road bikes selling for 6-10k. Must be a difficult choice to make to buy one w/o motor For same price.
Maybe Trek with carbon will be 34lb in Medium size ?

 

[taco799]

The new Domane will have a 625wh pack and the new gen. 4 Bosch.- 2lb lighter.

With proper carbon upgrades (wheels, stem, seatpost, crank, handlebar) an additional 2lb is possible. 6k price plus 1k upgrades-7k. But Specialized is 9k.

And all this is while they still have regular high end analog road bikes selling for 6-10k. Must be a difficult choice to make to buy one w/o motor For same price.
Maybe Trek with carbon will be 34lb in Medium size ?

My understanding was the new domane would have a fazua and limited to 20 mph? Also it still isnt released Not gonna count chickens that arent hatched lol

 

[Ebiker01]

My understanding was the new domane would have a fazua and limited to 20 mph? Also it still isnt released Not gonna count chickens that arent hatched lol

An Nyc Trek store rep told me it will be with gen. 4 Bosch. avlb. In dec. to order.
Looks like for Europe is with the vastly inferior Fazua system. They have it online already for Eu.

 

[linklemming]

But nonetheless, I'm not surprised that the one with 30% more juice would come back with perhaps 10%-35% more battery remaining at the end of a long ride.

So we agree a Brose with 650wh battery will go further than a shimano with a 500wh...yeah

I had read many of your comments suggesting that you could get the same range with a smaller battery using the shimano system. 'Technically' you never stated this comparing it to a brose. Thats what I was addressing with my 'not even close comment'.

Good to hear about the long-term reliability of the shimano. Indeed the brose doesnt seem to have the best record on that but I just enjoy the silence so much its worth it for me. I kindof forget Im riding an ebike when on my brose bikes. I was always aware I was on an ebike when using the shimano system.

 

[FlatSix911]

So we agree a Brose with 650wh battery will go further than a shimano with a 500wh...yeah

I had read many of your comments suggesting that you could get the same range with a smaller battery using the shimano system. 'Technically' you never stated this comparing it to a brose. Thats what I was addressing with my 'not even close comment'.

Good to hear about the long-term reliability of the shimano. Indeed the brose doesnt seem to have the best record on that but I just enjoy the silence so much its worth it for me. I kindof forget Im riding an ebike when on my brose bikes. I was always aware I was on an ebike when using the shimano system.

e-MTB mid motor shootout: Bosch Performance Line CX vs Shimano STEPS E8000 vs Yamaha PW-X vs Brose

Want to hit the trails on an electric mountain bike? There’s a world of choice out there. You can spend anywhere between about £1,500 and £15,000 on a trail-capable machine. One of the things we’d certainly recommend is to get a bike with a mid-motor, that drives the cranks, rather than a hub...

ebiketips.road.cc

e-MTB mid motor shootout: Bosch Performance Line CX vs Shimano STEPS E8000 vs Yamaha PW-X vs Brose

The Shimano system edges it here because overall we feel it has an excellent ride feel, a control system that’s designed specifically for e-MTBs and works really well, and really good range as well. It’s one of the lighter systems too. At the other end, the Brose motor, while it was joint top in the urban motor shootout, doesn’t fare so well here. It’s heavier, and the lower range for the same battery capacity means that it doesn’t feel quite as suitable for the trails.

 

[linklemming]

The Shimano system edges it here because overall we feel it has an excellent ride feel, a control system that’s designed specifically for e-MTBs and works really well, and really good range as well. It’s one of the lighter systems too. At the other end, the Brose motor, while it was joint top in the urban motor shootout, doesn’t fare so well here.
It’s heavier, and the lower range for the same battery capacity means that it doesn’t feel quite as suitable for the trails.

Awesome, thanks for the link. Looks like you convinced yourself

 

[taco799]

Any thoughts on the new cheaper Specialized Creo's going for 6.5k?
I couldn't find much info. Why are these cheaper? Would love someone to chime in.

Made for riders, by riders. | Specialized.com

From seasoned pros and weekend warriors, to kids and commuters—if you ride, we’re for you. We believe bikes have the power to change lives. This simple truth drives us to be—and do—better.

www.specialized.com

Made for riders, by riders. | Specialized.com

From seasoned pros and weekend warriors, to kids and commuters—if you ride, we’re for you. We believe bikes have the power to change lives. This simple truth drives us to be—and do—better.

www.specialized.com

 

[Mass Deduction]

Mass Deduction - I was curious as to what brands you carry and if BMC is one of them. I'm in Burnaby and I love the ferry ride over. So if you carry a few brands, in the spring I'd love to come over and try out a few bikes. I really like the BMC as well, not sure if I want to spend that much, but I might.

I'm not sure about the rules for self-promotion here, can anyone comment so that I know for the future? In any case, I joined the forum to share and learn, not to sell stuff, so for now I'll send you a DM with the brands we carry!

 

[Mass Deduction]

So we agree a Brose with 650wh battery will go further than a shimano with a 500wh...yeah

I had read many of your comments suggesting that you could get the same range with a smaller battery using the shimano system. 'Technically' you never stated this comparing it to a brose. Thats what I was addressing with my 'not even close comment'.

Good to hear about the long-term reliability of the shimano. Indeed the brose doesnt seem to have the best record on that but I just enjoy the silence so much its worth it for me. I kindof forget Im riding an ebike when on my brose bikes. I was always aware I was on an ebike when using the shimano system.

I hear you. Brose is quiet and smooth and powerful. If it was also lightweight, long range, and low maintenance then it'd be the ultimate system. Sadly I'm forced to choose between quiet, smooth, and powerful.... or lightweight, long range, and low maintenance. What to do, what to do... I know, I'll own both and use each to their advantages!

Yes, my comments about Shimano doing more with less was mainly Shimano vs. Bosch (but is also true of Shimano vs. most hub motor bikes, and many others). I get pretty decent mileage out of my Brose bike and consider it maybe second place in range, Yamaha perhaps third, and Bosch fourth place overall. I say overall because sometimes you'll get wide variations up and down a product line. Bosch's range is decent on the high end, but extremely poor on the entry level, for example. That's why I tend to describe Shimano as having significantly better range overall, as there are no poor-range motors in their line-up. But I acknowledge there are some competing high-end motors that compete reasonably well on range with Shimano's high-end offerings.

 

[Mass Deduction]

True but the BMC is limited to 20MPH. I know the motor can do 28 but, my understanding is BMC has limited it to 20 and won't increase that limit in the US even if you ask. (please correct me if I have this wrong as this is the only reason I haven't already bought the BMC bike)
The Igo bike you can choose your own settings is how I understood it from the Rep I talked to. Its default is a class 1 but, it can be a class 3 at will. But min range. But replaceable battery so you can carry 2-3 in a backpack and switch on the go. A smaller battery means less weight in your backpack as well.
The Domane + is the best of both world as it is a Class 3 but, of course that weighs 39 lbs.
The creo is the only one that is the best of all worlds, Range, Speed, Weight, but fails spectacularly at price of course by being 50% + more expensive.

Im working to get a custom framed wattwagon hopefully at about 3-4k with just lower end parts. That might be the best solution. It will be heavy but, should meet all other needs.

The weight advantage of the Igo disappears if you have to carry 2 or 3 batteries every ride, and now it's heavier than the BMC, so that's not exciting to me. Trying a Bafang OEM mid-drive is appealing to me, but I'd prefer one of their higher torque motors and/or higher capacity batteries as my first one. Yes, Bafang bikes are quite tune-able from what I understand.

Shimano doesn't do class 2 or 3, period. There is no official support for anything but class 1 from Shimano. So if you want power assist beyond 32 km/h you'll be modding/hacking it in some way.

Sadly, most companies won't sell class 3 bikes in Canada, so I'd have to import. My current two class 3 e-bikes were imports so I'm potentially open to that, but I think I'm ready for a lightweight and powerful class 1 bike for a change. It'll be a different experience and I'll take it on different rides. For example, if I go on a route with steady rolling hills a class 1 bike would be appealing. On a typical class 3 bike most of us won't go a lot faster than 32 km/h up the hills, and will easily go 45 km/h or more down the hills, so there's a negligible difference between class 1 and class 3 on a super-hilly route. So on a flatter route I'd choose a class 3 bike, but on a hillier route a high torque/low weight class 1 bike could be awesome. I think. I want to find out!

 

[Mass Deduction]

Repair and Replace?

It may mean different things to different people. My understanding of re-and-re is that it's a remove, regrease, reinstall. It's basically TLC-ing the motor, as opposed to servicing it. With Shimano we just remove the motor, and reinstall it with an electrically-conductive waterproof grease. With Brose we have to go further by opening up the motor and re-greasing the belt (and potentially replacing the belt if it's haggard). So belts are quiet and smooth, but they're arguably higher maintenance. And Brose motors have been consistently larger and heavier too. So advantages and disadvantages. I'm definitely not a Brose hater, I ride a bike with a Brose motor as my daily driver! But I lust after Shimano's small size and long range. I have a problem. Is there a twelve step programme for this particular addiction?

 

[Mass Deduction]

Is quite an old road ebiek by now. It has been out for 6+months.
But Compared to the unbelievably underpowered cheap fazua systems the Bmc is much much better.

But Specialized Creo is very new amd much better then the Bmc !! About 5-9lb lighter and with an additional 250wh portabe pack. But is very expensive.
I like BMC also . And Trek Domane E+.
And the Bulls road ebike for 2020. The 28mph one not the fazua one.
Those 4 are tje beat e road bikes.

Back to the topic at hand. In addition to a potential range (per Wh) advantage to the BMC, the BMC has additional intangible advantages. BMC feels that bike handling is superior with the battery moved from the downtube to the seat-tube. I can't certify that, but I'm looking forward to riding it and seeing how I feel about that.

The 10mm of rear travel thanks to the elastomer "shock" in the rear triangle of the frame is interesting and could be a big ride quality boost.

Finally, what range of tires fit these other bikes? One of the things that held me off from getting the iGo was that it was limited to an "endurance road" tire width, whereas the BMC can go up to somewhere in the neighbourhood of 40-42c which is close to an "all-road" tire width.

So slightly more tire volume, the 10mm of rear dampening, and the battery place may all add up to superior ride quality for the BMC. In theory anyways. Pair that up with the ability to tune each of the levels (how low/high each level of assist is), and the the smoothness and long range of high-end STePS, and I don't see any of the others meeting my needs quite as well as this one.

Sure I wish it came in a class 3 variant. I actually wish it was class 3 with the ability to set it lower than 45 km/h on demand (a switch between class 1 and class 3 would do, but the ability to choose where your cut-out is up to a maximum would be best of all), but I understand why they don't do that.

 

[Ebiker01]

Giant has a new 28mph e road bike. But is a sluggish 36v motor and also lacks in battery size(375wh). 48v would make it very responsive.
For 4.5k I would rather add another 1k and get a Bmc .

 

[Mass Deduction]

Giant has a new 28mph e road bike. But is a sluggish 36v motor and also lacks in battery size(375wh). 48v would make it very responsive.
For 4.5k I would rather add another 1k and get a Bmc .

Are you assuming it to be sluggish because it's 36v, or do you know it to be sluggish due to reviews and/or a test-ride?

The reason why I ask is a more efficient motor can do more with less. The upgrade from Shimano STePS 6000 to STePS 6100 brought with it a 20% increase in torque and a 25% increase in range on the exact same battery. To me, you want the lowest voltage/wattage/amperage motor you can get that will do the job because, all other things being equal, that should reduce weight, reduce cost, and improve range.

Put even more simply, I'd take a 10w LED lightbulb over a 60w incandescent lightbulb any day. It's not about how fast the unit can drain power, it's what it can do with that power.

I share your surprise about the downgrade in battery capacity for many of the 2020 Giant e-bikes, so I agree with your conclusion. I'm just curious about elements of how you got there!

 

[bob armani]

Back to the topic at hand. In addition to a potential range (per Wh) advantage to the BMC, the BMC has additional intangible advantages. BMC feels that bike handling is superior with the battery moved from the downtube to the seat-tube. I can't certify that, but I'm looking forward to riding it and seeing how I feel about that.

The 10mm of rear travel thanks to the elastomer "shock" in the rear triangle of the frame is interesting and could be a big ride quality boost.

Finally, what range of tires fit these other bikes? One of the things that held me off from getting the iGo was that it was limited to an "endurance road" tire width, whereas the BMC can go up to somewhere in the neighbourhood of 40-42c which is close to an "all-road" tire width.

So slightly more tire volume, the 10mm of rear dampening, and the battery place may all add up to superior ride quality for the BMC. In theory anyways. Pair that up with the ability to tune each of the levels (how low/high each level of assist is), and the the smoothness and long range of high-end STePS, and I don't see any of the others meeting my needs quite as well as this one.

Sure I wish it came in a class 3 variant. I actually wish it was class 3 with the ability to set it lower than 45 km/h on demand (a switch between class 1 and class 3 would do, but the ability to choose where your cut-out is up to a maximum would be best of all), but I understand why they don't do that.

QUOTE-ability to tune each of the levels (how low/high each level of assist is), and the the smoothness and long range of high-end STePS,

I was not aware that Shimano e-STePs motors were tunable within each PAS mode. That would be a big selling point for me if the tweaking ranges were very noticeable paired with a speed dongle. Has this always been the case with Shimano motors in general, or was this feature recently added to their line?Thanks for sharing.

 

[Mass Deduction]

I was not aware that Shimano e-STePs motors were tunable within each PAS mode. That would be a big selling point for me if the tweaking ranges were very noticeable paired with a speed dongle. Has this always been the case with Shimano motors in general, or was this feature recently added to their line?Thanks for sharing.

It hasn't always been the case, the feature was added post-launch. It's tuneable within each mode via an app (iOS or Android). There are three pre-sets (low, medium, and high) for each each mode. STePS 8000 by default is set to high-Eco, low-Trail, high-Boost. Several youtubers have changed it to low-Boost so reduce the odds of spinning out when climbing, as one example of the utility of this. It occurs to me that changing Trail to medium or high might reduce a rider's reliance on Boost, which might improve range overall for many riders. Because it can be done quickly and easily via a mobile app over bluetooth, it's actually something that can be changed on the fly during a ride. Shimano has also extended this PAS tuning functionality to STePS 7000 as well, but not 5000/6000/6100 (at least not yet).

I can't speak to how they'd respond within the context of a speed dongle.

 

[Ebiker01]

Are you assuming it to be sluggish because it's 36v, or do you know it to be sluggish due to reviews and/or a test-ride?

The reason why I ask is a more efficient motor can do more with less. The upgrade from Shimano STePS 6000 to STePS 6100 brought with it a 20% increase in torque and a 25% increase in range on the exact same battery. To me, you want the lowest voltage/wattage/amperage motor you can get that will do the job because, all other things being equal, that should reduce weight, reduce cost, and improve range.

Put even more simply, I'd take a 10w LED lightbulb over a 60w incandescent lightbulb any day. It's not about how fast the unit can drain power, it's what it can do with that power.

I share your surprise about the downgrade in battery capacity for many of the 2020 Giant e-bikes, so I agree with your conclusion. I'm just curious about elements of how you got there!

I’ve ridden ebikes with 36v and 48v and based on experience those with 36v are just less responsive, especially wheyoubafd some weight , a 5lb lock, a spare battery , a 15lb backpack.
It may be responsive for a lighter person put a 215lb would not like it.
If the same ebike had 48v system the 215lb rider would buy it.
I didn’t rode the new Giant.

The other e road bike Specialized Creo at 6.5k is sold out....
Most e bikes maybe 90% of them have a 48volt system.

 

[bob armani]

It hasn't always been the case, the feature was added post-launch. It's tuneable within each mode via an app (iOS or Android). There are three pre-sets (low, medium, and high) for each each mode. STePS 8000 by default is set to high-Eco, low-Trail, high-Boost. Several youtubers have changed it to low-Boost so reduce the odds of spinning out when climbing, as one example of the utility of this. It occurs to me that changing Trail to medium or high might reduce a rider's reliance on Boost, which might improve range overall for many riders. Because it can be done quickly and easily via a mobile app over bluetooth, it's actually something that can be changed on the fly during a ride. Shimano has also extended this PAS tuning functionality to STePS 7000 as well, but not 5000/6000/6100 (at least not yet).

I can't speak to how they'd respond within the context of a speed dongle.

Great info. I currently have the Yamaha PW-X motor on my eMTB. I do not see anything on the horizon for them to implement similar tuning capabilities that I know of. I did a company inquiry and they indicated that it as only available through the eConnect app which has only been released to the EU market. I hope to see other motor mfgs follow suit with this feature.

 

[Mass Deduction]

I’ve ridden ebikes with 36v and 48v and based on experience those with 36v are just less responsive, especially wheyoubafd some weight , a 5lb lock, a spare battery , a 15lb backpack.
It may be responsive for a lighter person put a 215lb would not like it.
If the same ebike had 48v system the 215lb rider would buy it.
I didn’t rode the new Giant.

The other e road bike Specialized Creo at 6.5k is sold out....
Most e bikes maybe 90% of them have a 48volt system.

If you're talking about older e-bikes, and especially if you're talking about hub motor bikes, that makes perfect sense. But that's not the reality of the modern bike industry.

I could say that all lightbulbs at 40 watts and below are underpowered. I've used 40 watt incandescent lightbulbs before, and they were underpowered, but when I use 60 watt incandescent lightbulb they're great. So I recommend people not get 10 watt LED lightbulbs based on my experience with 40 and 60 watt lightbulbs in the past. See what I mean about how the power draw doesn't matter if it's not in context?

Like the example earlier of Shimano increasing both torque *and* range on the exact same battery with the upgrade from STePS 6000 to STePS 6100. It wasn't more wattage, the improvements came from drawing *less* wattage but doing more with each watt.

Computers are the same way, it's about the performance per watt, not increasing the watts the computer draws. Computers draw fewer watts than they used to, but do much more with each watt. If not for that, given how much more powerful they've become, you wouldn't be able to afford the power bill of owning a computer!

The future of e-bikes is drawing less power, but doing more with the power you draw. So I would ignore the wattage/voltage/amperage, and focus in on how much hill climbing power and how much range each e-bike offers. I'll take an efficient 36v bike that does a lot with each volt, over a 48v bike that uses power inefficiently. Hub motor e-bikes for years have focused on volts/watts/amps, but the future (at least with mid-drives) is to look at how many Nm of torque (measured at the crank) and the range you'll get with the battery you'll be using. Nothing's perfect, but that's the best indicator of the user experience of modern mid-drive e-bikes if all you've got is numbers to go by.