Bike Ratings on EBR

Shoud EBR's Numerical Rating System be Modified?


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You can order the SDuro from https://www.e-bikeshop.co.uk. The owner, Martin, has a very good knowledge in Bosch and Yamaha systems. He ships to the US. However, I would not do order it since you will not get any warranty in the US and other factors such as the currency exchange.
Thank you, Ron. I contacted Germany, rather than UK.
Warranty is a major concern, because my uphill route is a 18% grade.
Even the least steep (10%) downhill coasting speed is over 40mph, in a 35mph zone, without a bike lane. The 10% grade has heavy commuter traffic, so my time windows are limited.

Service is more important. I will probably bring the bike to the shop for maintenance more often than most people. Occasionally, upgrade components over longer time periods.
 
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And so it goes that numerical ratings are subjective and relatively inaccurate for comparing bike to bike. Long-term user experience and comments and anecdotal data can be more essential than the initial numerical assessment from Court. Access is available for all here to gain a perspective on the value of e-bikes and their usefulness to individual lifestyles.
Since the EBR community has access to this forum, we have an outlet to add our input and experience. That finally is what makes EBR a tremendous benefit to the e-bike consumer.
 
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heuristics_in_judgment_and_decision-making#Attribute_substitution
And so it goes that numerical ratings are subjective and relatively inaccurate for comparing bike to bike. Long-term user experience and comments and anecdotal data can be more essential than the initial numerical assessment from Court. Access is available for all here to gain a perspective on the value of e-bikes and their usefulness to individual lifestyles.
Since the EBR community has access to this forum, we have an outlet to add our input and experience. That finally is what makes EBR a tremendous benefit to the e-bike consumer.
Daniel Kahneman won a Nobel prize in economics for his work in mathematical psychology. Kahneman truly revolutionized stock investment with Prospect Theory.

The key is: "rather than the final outcome" -- or rating. More important are heuristics -- mental shortcuts people take to cope with overwhelming complexity.

Prospect theory is a behavioral economic theory that describes the way people choose between probabilistic alternatives that involve risk, where the probabilities of outcomes are known.

The theory states that people make decisions based on the potential value of losses and gains rather than the final outcome,

and that people
evaluate these losses and gains using certain heuristics.

The model is descriptive: it tries to model real-life choices, rather than optimal decisions. The theory was created in 1979 and developed in 1992 by Daniel Kahneman and Amos Tversky as a psychologicallymore accurate description of decision making, compared to the expected utility theory. In the original formulation the term prospect referred to a lottery.
If you read Thinking, Fast and Slow, economic behavior becomes more clear. How to best use resources like EBR.com is one tool towards a high-ticket purchase.

For me, the issue is life-style change. I want to minimize the role a car plays in my life. I want to keep car mileage below 5,000K miles. The eBike is my primary tool for that life style change. Today, I run two miles to the store and carry 30+ pounds of food for the health and environment benefits.

One heuristic related to overall ratings is "Anchoring":

"Anchoring and adjustment is a heuristic used in many situations where people estimate a number.[27] According to Tversky and Kahneman's original description, it involves starting from a readily available number—the "anchor"—and shifting either up or down to reach an answer that seems plausible"

Anchoring also causes particular difficulty when many numbers are combined into a composite judgment. Tversky and Kahneman demonstrated this by asking a group of people to rapidly estimate the product 8 x 7 x 6 x 5 x 4 x 3 x 2 x 1. Another group had to estimate the same product in reverse order; 1 x 2 x 3 x 4 x 5 x 6 x 7 x 8. Both groups underestimated the answer by a wide margin, but the latter group's average estimate was significantly smaller.[33] The explanation in terms of anchoring is that people multiply the first few terms of each product and anchor on that figure.[33] A less abstract task is to estimate the probability that an aircraft will crash, given that there are numerous possible faults each with a likelihood of one in a million. A common finding from studies of these tasks is that people anchor on the small component probabilities and so underestimate the total.[33]

Another heurisitic is "Attribute Substitution":

In 2002 Daniel Kahneman and Shane Frederick proposed a process called attribute substitution which happens without conscious awareness. According to this theory, when somebody makes a judgment (of a target attribute) which is computationally complex, a rather more easily calculated heuristic attribute is substituted.[45] In effect, a difficult problem is dealt with by answering a rather simpler problem, without the person being aware this is happening.[42] This explains why individuals can be unaware of their own biases, and why biases persist even when the subject is made aware of them. It also explains why human judgments often fail to show regression toward the mean.[42][45][46]
Affect heuristic - Perhaps the most important

"Affect", in this context, is a feeling such as fear, pleasure or surprise. It is shorter in duration than a mood, occurring rapidly and involuntarily in response to a stimulus. While reading the words "lung cancer" might generate an affect of dread, the words "mother's love" can create an affect of affection and comfort. When people use affect ("gut responses") to judge benefits or risks, they are using the affect heuristic.[40] The affect heuristic has been used to explain why messages framed to activate emotions are more persuasive than those framed in a purely factual way.[41]

Let's take the opposite viewpoint, that of a bike marketer of high-end bikes. Should you worry about Storm Sonder's low cost bike? I would be quaking in my boots. Why? Because the largest market segment is ANCHORED on price. Convincing this market segment about other ATTRIBUTES is a very difficult sell. Other cascading mental proceeses kick in due to the structure of the human brain. The Affect and Attribute heurisitics are reinforced in a cascading manner.

I do not know if Storm Sonders aspires to be the Henry Ford of eBikes, but he follows the Ford strategy.

These are only a few of the many more reasons why I use a Google Sheet to compare bikes.

The following graphs illustrate Prospect Theory. The graphs illustrate why people have much less resistance towards purchasing a Storm vs. a high-end bike.

More info at this blog

(Link Removed - No Longer Exists) (Link Removed - No Longer Exists)

A "StarPlot" to diagram the Benefits (i.e., words beginning with the letter E), Risk, Cost, Bias and overall Results.​
 

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Have to question if there is a conflict of interest in the EBR ratings for the bike manufacturers who are now advertizing at the bottom of the EBR web pages.

Or Conversely, will those bike makers who aren't advertizing, like Sondors, face harsher scrutiny?

Any thoughts?
 
Have to question if there is a conflict of interest in the EBR ratings for the bike manufacturers who are now advertizing at the bottom of the EBR web pages.

Or Conversely, will those bike makers who aren't advertizing, like Sondors, face harsher scrutiny?

Any thoughts?
Joe,
Daniel Kahneman would probably respond "Yes!". The reason is not malicious or overt self-interests. The reason is the complexity exceeds human capability. The mental processes are mostly unconscious. We sort of know why we made a certain decision. When we introspect, we sometimes wonder how in the hell we came to a particular conclusion.

In Kahneman's words: "the human mind is a machine for jumping to conclusions".

One way to avoid even the hint of conflict of interests is for an open rating system like Amazon.
 
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Have to question if there is a conflict of interest in the EBR ratings for the bike manufacturers who are now advertizing at the bottom of the EBR web pages.

Or Conversely, will those bike makers who aren't advertizing, like Sondors, face harsher scrutiny?

Any thoughts?
Joe,
I noticed you live in Miami. Would you buy a Sonder's to ride on the beach?

I live far from the beach and snow, so I would not even consider it.
 
Mike,
No I wouldn't ride a bike on the beach, and if I did it wouldn't be an electric bike. In fact i've never seen anyone ride a bike on the beach ever..lol.. It sounds cool but in reality putting a steel bike with a lot of electric components in a salt laden atmosphere is just a bad idea! And you have to walk the bike thru all the soft sand
 
Mike,
No I wouldn't ride a bike on the beach, and if I did it wouldn't be an electric bike. In fact i've never seen anyone ride a bike on the beach ever..lol.. It sounds cool but in reality putting a steel bike with a lot of electric components in a salt laden atmosphere is just a bad idea! And you have to walk the bike thru all the soft sand
That is funny ! The image Storm conjures up in my mind is a cheap, beach cruiser. So what happens to all these SoCal guys in a year or two? Do they sell the bike or repaint to protect from rust? Or are huge sales an illusion?

Most importantly, will it turn Storm into a short-lived fad?

 
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That is funny ! The image Storm conjures up in my mind is a cheap, beach cruiser. So what happens to all these SoCal guys in a year or two? Do they sell the bike or repaint to protect from rust? Or are huge sales an illusion?

Most importantly, will it turn Storm into a short-lived fad?


hehe... And that's my point.. Don't think hardly anyone will be riding their Stromor on the beach. The brilliance of this campaign is the marketing a lifestyle image for an eBike.. Something that has not been done well before.

Stylish and cheap works for toys, cigarettes, and Old Navy...
 
hehe... And that's my point.. Don't think hardly anyone will be riding their Stromor on the beach. The brilliance of this campaign is the marketing a lifestyle image for an eBike.. Something that has not been done well before.

Stylish and cheap works for toys, cigarettes, and Old Navy...
So, like, gnarly dude, let's pedal our surfboards to a secret spot and get totally tubed, man!
 
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hehe... And that's my point.. Don't think hardly anyone will be riding their Stromor on the beach. The brilliance of this campaign is the marketing a lifestyle image for an eBike.. Something that has not been done well before.

Stylish and cheap works for toys, cigarettes, and Old Navy...

Seriously, if you were Zero CEO, What would be your marketing campaign ? The fastest eBike?
Is the basic issue a Euro/USA cultural divide ? Americans cannot imagine themselves pedaling around on. Wimpy bicycles?

Here is the link to what Bosch thinks USA lifestyles are. No surfer dudes in this marketing strategy. Did Bosch totally miss the mark, by imposing Euro lifestyles on USA consumers?
 
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Have to question if there is a conflict of interest in the EBR ratings for the bike manufacturers who are now advertizing at the bottom of the EBR web pages.

Or Conversely, will those bike makers who aren't advertizing, like Sondors, face harsher scrutiny?

Any thoughts?
@Joe Pah Actually Court has considered dropping the numerical rating simply because it is so subjective. Why not take the information which he provides in as unbiased a manner as any human being can and then determine if the particular qualities of a bike are what you need. The number and variety of bikes available on the market today makes it a challenge to apply a fixed rating system. If some reviewer were to come across a serious issue or quality problem then the challenge is how to communicate that information in an appropriate fashion. Think perhaps that EBR filters what advertising it will accept in order to prevent conflicts of interest rather than the other way around. All of the manufacturers who advertise on the site make decent bikes or kits; however, its really for the ebike rider to decide what works best for them. Its always the case that one bike that is ho-hum to one person is just the right solution for someone else. Unlike some other review sites, EBR does not get paid to do reviews, so the ads help support the website.
 
@Joe Pah Actually Court has considered dropping the numerical rating simply because it is so subjective. Why not take the information which he provides in as unbiased a manner as any human being can and then determine if the particular qualities of a bike are what you need. The number and variety of bikes available on the market today makes it a challenge to apply a fixed rating system. If some reviewer were to come across a serious issue or quality problem then the challenge is how to communicate that information in an appropriate fashion. Think perhaps that EBR filters what advertising it will accept in order to prevent conflicts of interest rather than the other way around. All of the manufacturers who advertise on the site make decent bikes or kits; however, its really for the ebike rider to decide what works best for them. Its always the case that one bike that is ho-hum to one person is just the right solution for someone else. Unlike some other review sites, EBR does not get paid to do reviews, so the ads help support the website.
A good model is Consumer Reports, which does provide ratings. Why not adapt an established model that the vast majority of the public is already familiar with -- and trusts.

The essential decision is a tradeoff between risk of loss and potential gain. Make the information easy to apply to those tradeoffs. Risk of loss carries much more weight than potential gain.

One reason Storm Sondors may succeed is the risk of loss is minimized. Most people do not know how much benefit an electric bike will provide. If the electric bike sees little use, then thousands of dollars will be saved.

 
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@Ann M. Eliminating the numerical ratings, which have marginal value, would be a good step towards minimizing subjectivity.. However, the content of Court's reviews, and what he decides to stress, numerically or othewise, is also subjective.. It is clear that he will be a lot more mecurial with the Sondors bike, than he has in the past for any other bike.. He wants to compare the Sondors crowdfunding promises, to the delivered product, and have others help him document and quantify every aspect of the process. That is where I question the conflict of interest, since he never did this before on other crowdfunding products, or any other ebikes.
 
@Ann M. Eliminating the numerical ratings, which have marginal value, would be a good step towards minimizing subjectivity.. However, the content of Court's reviews, and what he decides to stress, numerically or othewise, is also subjective.. It is clear that he will be a lot more mecurial with the Sondors bike, than he has in the past for any other bike.. He wants to compare the Sondors crowdfunding promises, to the delivered product, and have others help him document and quantify every aspect of the process. That is where I question the conflict of interest, since he never did this before on other crowdfunding products, or any other ebikes.
Joe,
Ratios can allow apples to be compared to oranges. That is how the financial world compares large and small companies. The comparisons need to be based on numerical data like cost of components. Subjective factors need to be made explicit, so the user is aware.

In computers, the Bill of Materials often appears in reviews. For example, the iPhone BOM is about $200.

The reason I made the Google Sheet for John's four bikes is to divide the bike price by Court's rating. I want to see is the cost-benefit ratio comes closer to John's assessment. The iZip and EG Zurich are pretty close.
    1. IGo Metro - 781
    2. I Zip - 520
    3. EG Zurich - 484
    4. Emazing - 378
Felt sporte - 444, Haibike XDuro RX 490. John, from a cost-benefit ratio, EG Zurich is the same as XDuro. The issue may be that iGo is overrated, or:

"This is an amazing bike for the money and I could see many friends and couples buying two in order to ride together."
A set of eBike metrics is needed. The financial world has the all-important P/E ratio. Perhaps, eBikes need a P/R ratio, price-to-rating. The price should be excluded from the overall rating, to cleanly separate the analysis.

John, What you noticed is statistics. The ideal way to double-check is to correlate price and ratings in a graph. Right now, price is "co-correlated" with the overall rating.
 
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@Ann M. Eliminating the numerical ratings, which have marginal value, would be a good step towards minimizing subjectivity.. However, the content of Court's reviews, and what he decides to stress, numerically or othewise, is also subjective.. It is clear that he will be a lot more mecurial with the Sondors bike, than he has in the past for any other bike.. He wants to compare the Sondors crowdfunding promises, to the delivered product, and have others help him document and quantify every aspect of the process. That is where I question the conflict of interest, since he never did this before on other crowdfunding products, or any other ebikes.
Joe,
You know how to analyze bikes better than me. What procedure could Court follow that would yield the evaluation you would consider to be fair and least biased?
 
Where bike reviews can be misleading is when there is a numerical value assigned with disregard for specific parameters set forth as the rating criteria. And again one person's criteria is not necessarily the same as another. A numerical rating will always be a subjective quantity. As such, another persons numerical rating must viewed with skepticism. But a rating system can be helpful in determining what will work best for a specific individual's need. So it really is up to each individual to value product attributes based on specific need.

However an independent rating system can be a valuable tool for comparisons. For instance, if an e-bike buyer is looking for "off-road" qualities- that would be one numerical value for specific bike. That same bike would have a different numerical value for the buyer looking for a bike with "commuting" attributes. Different numerical values could be set-up in order to assist the buyer in determining which bike best fits a rider's needs. For instance, it could be possible to rate a bike 5 out of 10 for Off-Road capability, a solid 10 for Touring, and a 7 for Commuting.

What it boils down to is for an individual to be able to compare features bike to bike to find the ideal to fit their need. And so in numerically quantifying a bikes attributes, it can enable an individual to quickly discern if a bike potentially fits their needs, wants, and tastes.
 
Where bike reviews can be misleading is when there is a numerical value assigned with disregard for specific parameters set forth as the rating criteria. And again one person's criteria is not necessarily the same as another. A numerical rating will always be a subjective quantity. As such, another persons numerical rating must viewed with skepticism. But a rating system can be helpful in determining what will work best for a specific individual's need. So it really is up to each individual to value product attributes based on specific need.

However an independent rating system can be a valuable tool for comparisons. For instance, if an e-bike buyer is looking for "off-road" qualities- that would be one numerical value for specific bike. That same bike would have a different numerical value for the buyer looking for a bike with "commuting" attributes. Different numerical values could be set-up in order to assist the buyer in determining which bike best fits a rider's needs. For instance, it could be possible to rate a bike 5 out of 10 for Off-Road capability, a solid 10 for Touring, and a 7 for Commuting.

What it boils down to is for an individual to be able to compare features bike to bike to find the ideal to fit their need. And so in numerically quantifying a bikes attributes, it can enable an individual to quickly discern if a bike potentially fits their needs, wants, and tastes.
Just defining the standards to test against is difficult!
 
With the level of interest generated on Court's numerical ratings for bikes he has reviewed, it would be interesting to note how other e-bike enthusiasts find it helpful in assessing a bikes value. A "yes-no poll" was created for simple immediate feedback.
It would be of further interest to see suggestions from other e-bike riders on how a rating system could be improved...
 
With the level of interest generated on Court's numerical ratings for bikes he has reviewed, it would be interesting to note how other e-bike enthusiasts find it helpful in assessing a bikes value. A "yes-no poll" was created for simple immediate feedback.
It would be of further interest to see suggestions from other e-bike riders on how a rating system could be improved...
John,
Sadly, I do not think the public or industry cares very much. I found an industry rating standard at LEVA. Very little interest is evident from Google searches. I had to search far and wide to find this standard. Our outcomes are the consequences of our decisions. We have nobody to blame but ourselves for bad outcomes.
 
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