That's like comparing a stone chip on the window to the body of yourcar. Most of the time , the stone bounces off the window without doing any damage but if you cop the wrong force at the wrong angle n the wrong site - everything turns into a jigsaw puzzle. Meanwhile , the bonnet cops a dent and starts to rust.
Best FS XC/Trail eMTB under 10k? Levo, Kenevo, Rail, Haibikes (too many models to narrow down)
- Thread starter Gee_Whiz
- Start date
That's like comparing a stone chip on the window to the body of yourcar. Most of the time , the stone bounces off the window without doing any damage but if you cop the wrong force at the wrong angle n the wrong site - everything turns into a jigsaw puzzle. Meanwhile , the bonnet cops a dent and starts to rust.
Gee_Whiz
Active Member
Likely just Green in the same vein is what Prairie Dog posted, Natural terrain with some rough, and very non extreme downhill.
So everything keeps bringing me back to the Levo's. Out of the current options avail in the US: Cannondale Moterra Neo 1&2 (probably 2nd best option to the Levo), Rail 9.7-9.9 (would prefer a 2022 version with the updated electronics and battery, but looong lead times), Haibike allmtn 5 (max payload too low otherwise this would be the one to buy), the Merida eOne 8000k (shimano EP motor, questionable reliability?), and of course, the Levo (non-SL's), the Levo seems to come out with the best components (including electronics), to motor torque, to battery capacity, to styling (subjective) ratio. Norco and Scott at the links Rome posted have some comparable options as well actually; need to dig into these a bit more.
The issue with the Levo's seem to be, either purchase a Levo alloy for around 7500 and spend a few k, upgrading the components to something higher quality, or purchase a Levo expert at 11k, which from what I can tell, may be a bit overpriced for what it provides..
I did just look into the Giant Trance's @Prairie Dog posted, and this video may have sold me on one.. it looks tremendous. Now im just curious if the motor can be unlocked similar to the bosches and broses.
I was also referred via email to the Flyer Uproc6's; does anyone know much about these?
First Look: 2021 Flyer Uproc6 eMTB - Pinkbike
Flyer's Uproc6 eMTB has a mixed wheel-size and has been designed with descending in mind.
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Stefan Mikes
Gravel e-biker
- Region
- Europe
- City
- Mazovia, PL
Derestricting Bosch and Specialized/Brose motors becomes very problematic these days. Unlocking a Levo (if it comes with the Gen 2 TCU Mastermind) is virtually impossible. Compared to that, unlocking Giant/Yamaha motor is doable but it is very difficult to install if you are going the "chip" way.
On the other hand: Is 20 mph off-road too slow for you? PDoz here rides 15.5 mph e-MTBs...
Stefan Mikes
Gravel e-biker
- Region
- Europe
- City
- Mazovia, PL
Guys, an anecdote:
I was to the Specialized Brand Store yesterday. I asked the store manager if he had any Levos available for a demo ride. He asked me for my size, and then said:
-- The only Levo I could offer for a demo would be the US$9,500 CF one.
-- Ugh. What if I crash that e-bike on my demo ride?
-- Well, makes that a big difference to you if you crashed the US$8,500 alloy one instead?
He left me speechless
I was to the Specialized Brand Store yesterday. I asked the store manager if he had any Levos available for a demo ride. He asked me for my size, and then said:
-- The only Levo I could offer for a demo would be the US$9,500 CF one.
-- Ugh. What if I crash that e-bike on my demo ride?
-- Well, makes that a big difference to you if you crashed the US$8,500 alloy one instead?
He left me speechless
Likely just Green in the same vein is what Prairie Dog posted, Natural terrain with some rough, and very non extreme downhill.
So everything keeps bringing me back to the Levo's. Out of the current options avail in the US: Cannondale Moterra Neo 1&2 (probably 2nd best option to the Levo), Rail 9.7-9.9 (would prefer a 2022 version with the updated electronics and battery, but looong lead times), Haibike allmtn 5 (max payload too low otherwise this would be the one to buy), the Merida eOne 8000k (shimano EP motor, questionable reliability?), and of course, the Levo (non-SL's), the Levo seems to come out with the best components (including electronics), to motor torque, to battery capacity, to styling (subjective) ratio. Norco and Scott at the links Rome posted have some comparable options as well actually; need to dig into these a bit more.
The issue with the Levo's seem to be, either purchase a Levo alloy for around 7500 and spend a few k, upgrading the components to something higher quality, or purchase a Levo expert at 11k, which from what I can tell, may be a bit overpriced for what it provides..
I did just look into the Giant Trance's @Prairie Dog posted, and this video may have sold me on one.. it looks tremendous. Now im just curious if the motor can be unlocked similar to the bosches and broses.
I was also referred via email to the Flyer Uproc6's; does anyone know much about these?
First Look: 2021 Flyer Uproc6 eMTB - Pinkbike
Flyer's Uproc6 eMTB has a mixed wheel-size and has been designed with descending in mind.www.pinkbike.com
Ok, so just a few thoughts on that
The brose levo ( non sl) is only something to consider if you are good enough to utilise the multi adjustable geometry - if not, then stay away from brose. Stefan isn't going to like this, but the sooner specialized dump brise, the better. I'm tired of paying extra for a specialuzed just so they can fund the 2019/2020 brise warranty debacle
If you can find a merida e160 8000, buy it. Awesome bike for playfull trail riding. BUT - stupid routing of the electrics at the head ( so you are stuck with the standard stem or a messy juggle of under stem spacers) , plus my mates e160 has an issue with the battery lock that is taking months to replace ( likely the original dealer stuff up) .
If you have unusual range demands and want either a small or extra large battery, look into norco
I love my daughters regular scott ( 2019 genius 940) , but they are lagging behind on emtb - perhaps in a year or two?
Stefan Mikes
Gravel e-biker
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- Europe
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- Mazovia, PL
Let someone correct me: I heard Merida cannot be sold in the United States because of the agreement between Merida and Specialized.
Regarding Specialized/Brose: It is two years past 2020, and the motors have greatly changed.
Going for a ride soon. Funny to mention the Specialized 1.2s motor in my Vado is 5 years old, and I have ridden it for more than 11,000 km since I bought the e-bike
Regarding Specialized/Brose: It is two years past 2020, and the motors have greatly changed.
Going for a ride soon. Funny to mention the Specialized 1.2s motor in my Vado is 5 years old, and I have ridden it for more than 11,000 km since I bought the e-bike
Regarding Specialized/Brose: It is two years past 2020, and the motors have greatly changed.
Going for a ride soon. Funny to mention the Specialized 1.2s motor in my Vado is 5 years old, and I have ridden it for more than 11,000 km since I bought the e-bike
The motor hasn't changed much - they just fixed the software issue that showed up the weakness. A vado isn't going to fry belts in tight technical terrain
Gee whiz , in another thread you seem to think the Levo comp has high spec? It's LOWER spec than a merida e160 8000! ( yet more expensive)
Forks - identical apart from stickers ( marzochi z1 are rebadged fox rythm 36, both have the budget grip damper which is adequate but not amazing ) - ps I have them on my levo sl , bought new second hand when a levo owner upgraded
Rear shock - the merida rock shox super deluxe leaves the levo fox dps for dead. The best $ I've spent on my levo sl is replacing the fox dps with a rox shox superdeluxe
Brakes - the levo sram are an acquired taste. Great modulation, but spongy compared with shimano. If parts were easilly available, the srams on my levl sl would be replaced ( but I'd go shimano xt for the nicer lever )
Gears - shimano are cheaper to live with ( compare cost of cassettes ) , but I like the feel of sram slightly more ( levo by a subjective hair)
Wheels , similar, although levo have better warranty.
Levo frame wins in terms of versatility - lots of scope to adjust the geometry to suit your preference. So room to grow - IF you ever get good enough to need more than an e160 offers. That's double black diamond at speed territory...
BUT , specialized warranty kills merida - at least in Australia. Which is weird because merida own the majority of specialized. I'm not sure I'd be banking on this, though, because specialized are creeping into new retail models - eg prioritising sales to larger dealers / online sales etc. So the days when your lbs knew you by name and pushed for warranty are limited imho?
Forks - identical apart from stickers ( marzochi z1 are rebadged fox rythm 36, both have the budget grip damper which is adequate but not amazing ) - ps I have them on my levo sl , bought new second hand when a levo owner upgraded
Rear shock - the merida rock shox super deluxe leaves the levo fox dps for dead. The best $ I've spent on my levo sl is replacing the fox dps with a rox shox superdeluxe
Brakes - the levo sram are an acquired taste. Great modulation, but spongy compared with shimano. If parts were easilly available, the srams on my levl sl would be replaced ( but I'd go shimano xt for the nicer lever )
Gears - shimano are cheaper to live with ( compare cost of cassettes ) , but I like the feel of sram slightly more ( levo by a subjective hair)
Wheels , similar, although levo have better warranty.
Levo frame wins in terms of versatility - lots of scope to adjust the geometry to suit your preference. So room to grow - IF you ever get good enough to need more than an e160 offers. That's double black diamond at speed territory...
BUT , specialized warranty kills merida - at least in Australia. Which is weird because merida own the majority of specialized. I'm not sure I'd be banking on this, though, because specialized are creeping into new retail models - eg prioritising sales to larger dealers / online sales etc. So the days when your lbs knew you by name and pushed for warranty are limited imho?
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I run 45 and really do question using 50t plus on a EMTB... or at least mine I think at the point it be to steep for bike to get traction regardless of rider. It's like having granny so low your not moving. Although I have not used one because I've found that for me I'd run out of traction 1st. I run a 10 on the other end of the scale and could on rare ocassion's run smaller down a steep hill.
Stefan Mikes
Gravel e-biker
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- Mazovia, PL
Again: Who said Merida was available in the U.S.?
steve mercier
Well-Known Member
The ergonimics of the software design is crucial to technical mountain biking. This video attempts to tackle the subject . You can skip forward to the 4 min mark.
RandallS
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I may have missed it, but the concept of "best" does include cost as well for some people - like me anyways.
I just bought a 2021 LIV Intrigue, which is really a Trance with a couple of minor geometry differences.
I had been going down the road towards a Norco but I have experience with the Giant e-bike brand having a 2020 Fathom E+1 Pro. As such, when the Intrigue became available in my size, I snapped it up as I knew I wasn't going to see a new alloy 2022 Trance until the fall at the earliest according to my LBS.
The Norco would have been $3-4 thousand dollars more - and although I can afford it, I didn't need it. I ride mainly trails and mainly intermediate or easier.
Of the big name bikes, I think Giant is one of the better bang for bucks out there and I have purchased 2 in the last 2 years.
So far, the Intrigue has impressed but I still love my hardtail Fathom. I only upgraded because I wanted FS.
I don't want to sound like a Fanboy, but if "bang for your buck" is one of the criteria, the Giant Trance, both the highest end Carbon and the newest Alloy versions, have to be considered if an "all-rounder" type of bike fit's the bill for what you intend to use it for.
There's also one more factor, but it's very regional at the moment I think - can you actually get one, when YOU want it?
Not here you can't, other than the stuff around (and above) the $10k mark.
My $0.02 and I reserve the right to be wrong...
I just bought a 2021 LIV Intrigue, which is really a Trance with a couple of minor geometry differences.
I had been going down the road towards a Norco but I have experience with the Giant e-bike brand having a 2020 Fathom E+1 Pro. As such, when the Intrigue became available in my size, I snapped it up as I knew I wasn't going to see a new alloy 2022 Trance until the fall at the earliest according to my LBS.
The Norco would have been $3-4 thousand dollars more - and although I can afford it, I didn't need it. I ride mainly trails and mainly intermediate or easier.
Of the big name bikes, I think Giant is one of the better bang for bucks out there and I have purchased 2 in the last 2 years.
So far, the Intrigue has impressed but I still love my hardtail Fathom. I only upgraded because I wanted FS.
I don't want to sound like a Fanboy, but if "bang for your buck" is one of the criteria, the Giant Trance, both the highest end Carbon and the newest Alloy versions, have to be considered if an "all-rounder" type of bike fit's the bill for what you intend to use it for.
There's also one more factor, but it's very regional at the moment I think - can you actually get one, when YOU want it?
Not here you can't, other than the stuff around (and above) the $10k mark.
My $0.02 and I reserve the right to be wrong...
Gee_Whiz
Active Member
Hmm I may have gotten the two mixed up; From what I was reading, it seems as though the Levo Comp (non alloy) had really good specs but ill check it again.
So as it stands I would say the Levo's are more of a secondary option (including the kenevo which is still kinda interesting.. idk why lol)
Are there tangible plusses and minuses to the bikes below that are able to ship within the US? including ride quality etc?
2021 Merida eOne-Sixty 9000 Carbon -10k usd
- Carbon frame, 150mm suspension travel - May also be able to purchase in aluminum for less
- FOX 38 Elite eMTB+ Air 160mm suspension travel
- FOX Float DPX2 Elite
- Shimano XT 4 pot brakes
- Shimano 1x12 drivetrain
- Merida Expert TR dropper
- Shimano EP8 85Nm w/ Shimano E8036 630Wh battery - Motor cant be unlocked which stinks
2021 Merida eOne-Sixty 8000 Carbon - 8500 usd
- Carbon frame, 150mm suspension travel - May also be able to purchase in aluminum for less
- Marzocchi Z1 Ebike+ Air 160mm suspension travel
- FOX Float DPX2 Performance
- Shimano SLX 4 piston brakes
- Shimano 1x12 drivetrain
- Merida Expert TR dropper
- Shimano EP8 85Nm w/ Shimano E8036 630Wh battery
2022 Trance X Advanced E+ 0 - 9000 usd - https://www.giant-bicycles.com/us/trance-x-advanced-eplus-0-2022
- Frame: Advanced-grade composite frame, 140mm Maestro suspension. - worst paint job than the 7k model which looks amazing.. odd
- Fork: Fox 36 Factory Live Valve, 150mm travel.
- Shock: Fox Float X Factory Live Valve.
- Motor: Yamaha SyncDrive Pro, 85Nm.
- Battery: EnergyPak Smart 625Wh. these also have a 250wh add on pack
- Drivetrain: Shimano XT M8100 12-speed.
- Finishing kit: Giant Contact SL.
2022 Trance X Advanced E+ 2 - 7000 usd - https://www.giant-bicycles.com/us/trance-x-advanced-eplus-2-2022
- Frame: Advanced-grade composite frame, 140mm Maestro suspension.
- Fork: Fox 36 Performance, 150mm travel.
- Shock: Fox DPS Performance.
- Motor: Yamaha SyncDrive Pro, 85Nm.
- Battery: EnergyPak Smart 625Wh. - these also have a 250wh add on pack
- Drivetrain: Shimano XT M8100 12-speed.
- Finishing kit: Giant Contact.
- Frame: Aluminium, 130mm Travel, Ride Aligned™
- Fork: RockShox 35 Silver, 140mm Travel, 44mm Offset, 1.8″ Tapered, E-MTB.
- Rear shock: RockShox Select R, Custom Tune, 210×47.5mm.
- Rear shifter: Shimano Deore SL-M6100-R.
- Rear derailleur: Shimano Deore RD-M6100.
- Shimano EP8 85Nm w/ 900Wh battery
- Carbon frame with a Shimano STEPS EP8 drive system, internal cable routing, and clearance for up to 2.6" tires
- SRAM X01/GX Eagle drivetrain performs well in demanding terrain
- SRAM Code RSC hydraulic disc brakes provide excellent stopping power
- OneUp Adjustable Dropper quickly lifts and lowers your saddle with the press of a lever
- Battery 900wh
- Fork: Fox Factory Float 36 GRIP2, 160mm Travel
Rear Shock: Fox Factory Float X2, 210x55mm - Shimano EP8 85Nm w/ 900Wh battery
Initial thoughts; The One-Sixty 9000 seems to be the best all arounder of the bunch? However, no extended battery potential on these. Regarding the Giant's, would it be more ideal to purchase the lower model, with the nicer frame, and upgrade to the parts of the higher model or are the lower models parts suitable for "harsh" riding as is?
The Norco Sight seems to be the second best all arounder after the One-Sixty 9000? Downsides seems to be weight and GX drivetrain over XT?
Other options: 2022 Levo Comp Alloy, 2022 Kenevo Expert (this bikes seems unsuitable for anything aside from extreme riding/downhill?), 2021 Moterra Neo Carbon 2, 2021 Trek Rail 9.8 XT/GX
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Gee_Whiz
Active Member
Thank you for the video, it provided a bit of clarity on the EP8. At first it sounded like the EP8 was a step backwards, and then it began to shine around the 5min mark lol. It seems as though the Bosch is towards the bottom of the rung actually which is odd because its so prevalent. I'm curious where the Yamaha SyncDrive Pro's exist in the rankings
Stefan Mikes
Gravel e-biker
- Region
- Europe
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- Mazovia, PL
As an Enduro e-bike, it is large and heavy. It makes that e-bike poor on acceleration (for instance). Actually, Kenevo is more meant for downhill than uphill -- and for JUMPS. Giant Reign E+ belongs to the same class.
Stefan Mikes
Gravel e-biker
- Region
- Europe
- City
- Mazovia, PL
@Gee_Whiz: Another anecdote!
There is a US$7,000 Kenevo on the floor in Specialized Warsaw. As the store wanted to clear the space, the Black Friday offer was... US$5,000! I told the manager that -- if I still owned a house for storage space -- I would have relieved him from the trouble He said many things to discourage me from the purchase with the final argument a Kenevo would be a waste on me (That e-bike still occupies the floor)
There is a US$7,000 Kenevo on the floor in Specialized Warsaw. As the store wanted to clear the space, the Black Friday offer was... US$5,000! I told the manager that -- if I still owned a house for storage space -- I would have relieved him from the trouble
He said many things to discourage me from the purchase with the final argument a Kenevo would be a waste on me (That e-bike still occupies the floor)
Gee_Whiz
Active Member
Haha thats what im reading as well on the web; eMTB says to avoid it basically unless you are a pro and KNOW that you need it. This guy gives a pretty good review imo:@Gee_Whiz: Another anecdote!
There is a US$7,000 Kenevo on the floor in Specialized Warsaw. As the store wanted to clear the space, the Black Friday offer was... US$5,000! I told the manager that -- if I still owned a house for storage space -- I would have relieved him from the trouble
