Best E-Bike Conversion Kit?

Cybersnow

Active Member
Region
USA
I have a Salsa Fargo that I have been riding for about 8 years and the bearings are making noise and my battery is not what it used to be so it is time to rekit the bike. (Bike is still in great condition). I live in the mountains so torque and power are critical to me. I have had no issues with the Bafang but I know the E-Bike kit technology has probably evolved quite a bit recently. Since I did not save all the crank parts when I installed the BBSHD kit, I need to replace it. Looking for suggestions on kits that fit a standard 63-72 crank (the BBSHD slid right in with no modifications).
 
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I have a Salsa Fargo that I have been riding for about 8 years and the bearings are making noise and my battery is not what it used to be so it is time to rekit the bike. (Bike is still in great condition). I live in the mountains so torque and power are critical to me. I have had no issues with the Bafang but I know the E-Bike kit technology has probably evolved quite a bit recently. Since I did not save all the crank parts when I installed the BBSHD kit, I need to replace it. Looking for suggestions on kits that fit a standard 63-72 crank (the BBSHD slid right in with no modifications).
I have done a bunch of conversions with mid-drives. I started with Bafangs then went to torque sensor motors, such at the TSDZxx. For the last 18 months I have been doing ToSeven motors and have landed on the DM02. There is a thread here on it if you are inclined to check it out. Things have evolved a lot. The controller has the surface area of a ping-pong ball and everything is customizable through the displays and you can even go Bluetooth to ditch some wires.
 
Based on the terrain around here, I would be very interested in the DM01 in 1000 watts. How reliable have your builds been? How about upgrading the controller?
I have done a bunch of conversions with mid-drives. I started with Bafangs then went to torque sensor motors, such at the TSDZxx. For the last 18 months I have been doing ToSeven motors and have landed on the DM02. There is a thread here on it if you are inclined to check it out. Things have evolved a lot. The controller has the surface area of a ping-pong ball and everything is customizable through the displays and you can even go Bluetooth to ditch some wires.
 
Based on the terrain around here, I would be very interested in the DM01 in 1000 watts. How reliable have your builds been? How about upgrading the controller?
Really the 500 watt at 3.6 pounds, DM02 has way more torque to climb anything in the Bay Area hills and mountains. IMHO, it kicks butt. A guy from the Berkley hills his picking up his bike in the morning after some re-programing. It is a super strong climber. It feels like 1,200 watts. Energy use rate is not the same as efficiency. It is like thinking a lower gas mileage car is somehow better. Look at the programing video that I posted on that thread. The standard controller is just fine unless you want an electric motorcycle to not pedal and do 50. These are only opinions based on my tastes. Everyone has different tastes. Then there is the chain line. A wide motor will not let you hit lower gears.
 
Then there is the matter of legal compliance, but only if something goes very wrong, and then an investigation. Jail time. Fines! Motors over 750 are not allowed on Streets, Paths, or Bike Lanes. They are off-road private property motorcycles only. Anything over 100Nm will eat drivetrains like crazy, with huge costs. Do not go there. If you want lower climbing gears, don't go there, too wide. Just a bit little less can be so much more. You still will smoke any commercial bike from stores with the 500 W usage high efficiency motor and for longer ride times. See threads here, such as, Smoking Vados. Vados are $4,000+ bikes from Specialized including the SL. You will out run them into the ground. They will eat your dust whilst in Spandex suits and while clipped in. But you will be an average commuter in regular clothing. Ring your bell twice politely and sip your coffee as you pass them on a climb.
 
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Based on the terrain around here, I would be very interested in the DM01 in 1000 watts. How reliable have your builds been? How about upgrading the controller?
As pedaluma mentions, you really dont need 1000 watts to conquer hills(caveat: if your willing to go slow enough). But you already are used to the BBSHD(weight/power) so the DM01 would likely be a better fit for you.

There is no way 500W feels like 1200W climbing unless you just smoked a Vado, people can throw out all the buzzwords they want on energy use rate, efficiency and such but its basic physics. There is no way a DM02 is twice as efficient as a DM01. At the most if at all it would be only a few percentage points.

You might want to check out my thread in the DIY area (My DIY builds: GMAC, BBSHD, 9C RH212, CYC Photon, ToSeven DM01), another good source of info is the "high voltage electric vehicle channel (HVEVC)" on discord and youtube.

As far as controller upgrade, I dont see a way. HVEVC tried it with ToSeven motors and they never got the torque sensor working correctly.

I did blow up a controller on my DM01 but that was when its max current was 30A. I was pushing it hard going up a 6% hill battling a 20mph headwind to the tune of 1400W trying to keep up with a guy with huge DD motor. It didnt fail that day(although it shutdown) but about 5 rides later, many rides also testing the 1400W limit. The new controllers come from the factory set to 23A although you can change it(not recommended)

My DM01 with new controller has been flawless now for around 10 rides now, maxing out at 1100W at 52V. I rarely use that much power but it is always there when I need it. Most riding is 250-350 watts except for climbing or fighting strong headwinds and even then its around 850 watts.

The DM01 has a horrible chainline with anything smaller than a 46t. With a 46t chainring and 2mm spacer, my chainline is 55mm. This is on a boost spacing bike (soma juice 29r). I am also using Shimano Cues/linkglide 9 speed cassette/shifter which moves the required chainline out as it is using 11 speed spacing but on a 9 speed cassette (imagine the two biggest cogs on an 11 speed cassette being gone). No chainline issues.

I have been running 100nm+ setup on two BBSHD bikes for several years now(1 is now a DM01) as well as a Luna X2 (ludicrous). Chain wear isnt significantly worse than lesser powered ebikes. I usually replace chain+cassette at 1500miles which I have been doing on all my bikes (ebikes or otherwise). All I do for chain maintenance is spray a rag with wd40 and use that to clean the chain, then apply squirt chain lube. You do have to make sure you are using strong components but coming from a BBSHD, you should be aware of all that.
 
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I live in an area where 12-15% grades are usual. In fact there is a rather long 12% grade just to get home. The BBSHD was powerful enough to pull that grade without going into my “granny” gear. My wife rides an Aventon with a torque sensor instead of a cadence sensor and is more fun to ride. Her bike weighs 54 lbs and she weighs 100. Unfortunately at 200 lbs this old fart needs a little more power. While I only use the throttle to start (from a stop) up a hill, I am all about the exercise while pedaling. Living in a very rural area where I see electric motor scooters on the road often, I am not worried about the E-Bike laws and there are more than enough roads, trails, etc., to keep me busy. I guess I am at the deciding point between a DM01 or a CYC motor. Any thoughts on CYC? Also any suggestions on a reliable supply source for the DM01?
 
Most comments on this website speak pretty negatively about the CYC photon. Much of this is because of the "high voltage electric vehicle channel" on youtube. The author there seems to pretty much go all over the place using throttle only and one of his main rides for quite awhile was a high voltage BBSHD with his own aftermarket controller upgrade. He does a 'throttle ride' going up a pretty good incline on the CYC and it overheats. He even has a video or two on 'his analysis' of the overheating issue. I commented on one of his videos that it wasnt designed to be a 'throttle jockey' motor and he agreed.

That being said, the CYC Photon is not designed like a BBSHD or DM01. It is designed to be a DIY solution to compete with the mid-drive euro based bike like Bosh/Brose etc...

I have a CYC Photon now and have had it since 9/23. Its up to about 2k miles now. I have never run a throttle on it. Except for a few initial rides, I have always run it in its highest possible power mode of unlimited (see attached file). I also always monitor motor temps when riding it and back off when I see it reach 90C. I would see it reach those temps on the last part of my rides where I am going up a 6% grade which seems to always have at least a 15mph headwind. I would also see it get to 90C when climbing grades above 13% or so. This was using a 42t chainring and 11-36 cassette. I switched to a 11-46t cassette and have never seen it overheat on that grade since. I dont recall it ever overheating using the USA settings except for the 13% grade and 11-36 cassette.

This is all documented in my DIY thread mentioned previously.

I did have to replace the primary sprag clutch after 1800 miles. It cost about $24 to do this (sprag clutch + tool to remove chainring). There is a video on youtube showing how to disassemble the motor. As I have stated, I have always run it at the highest possible power settings although mostly in assist level 2 of 3 so I dont blame CYC for my abuse. They updated the firmware awhile back which has a softer start which could prolong the sprag clutch. I do recall starts from a stop in the highest power setting 'stuttering' which I attributed to the controller on the original firmware. Most likely it was the sprag clutch slipping, I have not felt this in the latest firmware

All that being said, the CYC photon has the absolute best torque feel of any DIY kit I have used so far. I am also a huge fan of its design...being compact, lightweight and of high quality compared to something like a BBSHD. It also seems to be more efficient than my BBSHD or DM01. Every Photon ride is pure pleasure. I have even done technical MTB trails with the CYC photon. While not up to par with my Brose motor Turbo Levo, it does very well.

My DM01 has replaced my CYC photon for the time being. While the CYC has the better feel, the DM01 fits my use case better (mostly gravel riding with a high speed section at the end which all the ebike commuters use to challenge each other). While the DM01 is better for that high speed section than the CYC, the BBSHD is the motor of choice.

The CYC photon is pretty $$, cant deny that but its a well designed kit with class leading torque sensor feel.
 

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Most comments on this website speak pretty negatively about the CYC photon. Much of this is because of the "high voltage electric vehicle channel" on youtube. The author there seems to pretty much go all over the place using throttle only and one of his main rides for quite awhile was a high voltage BBSHD with his own aftermarket controller upgrade. He does a 'throttle ride' going up a pretty good incline on the CYC and it overheats. He even has a video or two on 'his analysis' of the overheating issue. I commented on one of his videos that it wasnt designed to be a 'throttle jockey' motor and he agreed.

That being said, the CYC Photon is not designed like a BBSHD or DM01. It is designed to be a DIY solution to compete with the mid-drive euro based bike like Bosh/Brose etc...

I have a CYC Photon now and have had it since 9/23. Its up to about 2k miles now. I have never run a throttle on it. Except for a few initial rides, I have always run it in its highest possible power mode of unlimited (see attached file). I also always monitor motor temps when riding it and back off when I see it reach 90C. I would see it reach those temps on the last part of my rides where I am going up a 6% grade which seems to always have at least a 15mph headwind. I would also see it get to 90C when climbing grades above 13% or so. This was using a 42t chainring and 11-36 cassette. I switched to a 11-46t cassette and have never seen it overheat on that grade since. I dont recall it ever overheating using the USA settings except for the 13% grade and 11-36 cassette.

This is all documented in my DIY thread mentioned previously.

I did have to replace the primary sprag clutch after 1800 miles. It cost about $24 to do this (sprag clutch + tool to remove chainring). There is a video on youtube showing how to disassemble the motor. As I have stated, I have always run it at the highest possible power settings although mostly in assist level 2 of 3 so I dont blame CYC for my abuse. They updated the firmware awhile back which has a softer start which could prolong the sprag clutch. I do recall starts from a stop in the highest power setting 'stuttering' which I attributed to the controller on the original firmware. Most likely it was the sprag clutch slipping, I have not felt this in the latest firmware

All that being said, the CYC photon has the absolute best torque feel of any DIY kit I have used so far. I am also a huge fan of its design...being compact, lightweight and of high quality compared to something like a BBSHD. It also seems to be more efficient than my BBSHD or DM01. Every Photon ride is pure pleasure. I have even done technical MTB trails with the CYC photon. While not up to par with my Brose motor Turbo Levo, it does very well.

My DM01 has replaced my CYC photon for the time being. While the CYC has the better feel, the DM01 fits my use case better (mostly gravel riding with a high speed section at the end which all the ebike commuters use to challenge each other). While the DM01 is better for that high speed section than the CYC, the BBSHD is the motor of choice.

The CYC photon is pretty $$, cant deny that but its a well designed kit with class leading torque sensor feel.
Thanks for all that great information and I did go over the thread you recommended. All great information. I now have a good source for all three options. At this point, price is not the deciding factor. Last year
I spent a lot of money buying an E-Bike from Canada that came with an M-620 motor and a Rohloff and belt drive set up. All quality parts! However it weighs about 85 lbs, is hard to load and I am not pleased with it’s ride on the dirt and unimproved trails up here. While my Salsa rode more like my mini cooper the big bike rides like my tundra 3/4 ton pick up. I really want to get back to “fun rides”. Not sure which of the DIY setups to go with, but after building 2 BBSHD and about 5 BBS02 set ups, will try something new. I think I will pursue the DM01 and give it a try for a season (May through October). We typically ride between 500 and 750 miles a season. I may be back asking for advice.😀
 
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I feel so lucky. I can ride everyday of the year and have access to amazingly good bike infrastructure. Some of my best friends are semi-hippy-chick cargo moms that use bikes for everything around town. It is not really about the tech, more than the lifestyle that it provides. Yesterday I hung out with friends of all ages for awhile outdoors with water views, then we went to see weed eating sheep being herded by dogs while eating freshly homemade tortilla tacos, I saw a peregrine falcon hunting pigeons, a pair of geese swimming with six new goslings, and hundreds of barn swallows. This while just going about daily business as transportation. That would not happen if I were stuck in a car with traffic lights.
 
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