Battery prices

[Gavin MacBean]

Hi, I think maybe we are being slightly ripped off when buying new ebike batteries. Leon Musk (Tesla car owner) has said he will soon be able to produce lithium 1kw batteries for under $100 (£69). A replacement battery for my ebike works out at about at $2,100 (£1490) per kW!
Admittedly the current cost of lithium batteries is about $250 per kw (£173), and I do realise they range from 'crap' to 'high quality' and that there are sophisticated electronics in good (Bosch, Yamaha etc) batteries, but even then ............

 

[Donny]

Hi, I think maybe we are being slightly ripped off when buying new ebike batteries. Leon Musk (Tesla car owner) has said he will soon be able to produce lithium 1kw batteries for under $100 (£69). A replacement battery for my ebike works out at about at $2,100 (£1490) per kW!
Admittedly the current cost of lithium batteries is about $250 per kw (£173), and I do realise they range from 'crap' to 'high quality' and that there are sophisticated electronics in good (Bosch, Yamaha etc) batteries, but even then ............

It depends on the quality, who is making them, and how many. If you're talking about a large scale automotive manufacturer who is making or outsourcing hundreds of thousands of batteries, his cost is going to end up lower than someone who is only making or outsourcing small batches of batteries for e-bikes. This is why products usually cost less money at a major retailer than they do at a small mom and pop shop - the larger retailer gets their products in larger quantities and that keeps their prices down. I'm sure Tesla will still be charging a premium for their cars regardless

 

[William Hemmingsen]

Every aspect of the e-bike industry is WAY overpriced for what you get. But in a small niche market, that is just the way it is. Low quantity of sales means higher markups to pay salaries etc.

I expect all e-bikes to average around 2-3x manufacturing cost. And that will not change until the volume goes way up.


Lee

 

[Jack Tyler]

Gavin, I suspect you and Elon may be talking apples & oranges. Musk is likely describing his cost for 1 KW's worth of small lithium batteries. You are comparing that to "A replacement battery for my ebike...." That replacement battery you mention no doubt comes in a case. The individual small lithium batteries in that case have been connected via a manufacturing process so that they provide the appropriate voltage. There may well be some additional electronic and other componetry in that case as well, which also has to be sourced and properly connected up. That battery is then likely tested to QA standards which assures you getting what you expect. At that point, as the case is packaged up, we get into all the other issues which makes a spare part cost a good deal more than its incremental build cost when the whole bike was made. (We've discussed that issue elsewhere here). Now let's adjust the comparison for "soon". If e.g. Musk is referring to his anticipated 1 KW battery cost for mid-2017, what will your bike manufacturer's cost be - at that same point in time - for those same individual batteries (before production begins)?

 

[Donny]

Gavin, I suspect you and Elon may be talking apples & oranges. Musk is likely describing his cost for 1 KW's worth of small lithium batteries. You are comparing that to "A replacement battery for my ebike...." That replacement battery you mention no doubt comes in a case. The individual small lithium batteries in that case have been connected via a manufacturing process so that they provide the appropriate voltage. There may well be some additional electronic and other componetry in that case as well, which also has to be sourced and properly connected up. That battery is then likely tested to QA standards which assures you getting what you expect. At that point, as the case is packaged up, we get into all the other issues which makes a spare part cost a good deal more than its incremental build cost when the whole bike was made. (We've discussed that issue elsewhere here). Now let's adjust the comparison for "soon". If e.g. Musk is referring to his anticipated 1 KW battery cost for mid-2017, what will your bike manufacturer's cost be - at that same point in time - for those same individual batteries (before production begins)?

I just read where even Tesla said that about 50% of the cost of their cars is just for the batteries - something like $45,000. Even if that price goes down a bit, their car prices probably won't. It's like was also said already - smaller production runs are going to cost more. If you can get about three years or so out of a battery with consistent use, I think that's fair enough. Heck, my nearly five year old Samsung S4 still has its original battery and I can still go about two days between charges (admittedly I am not a heavy cell phone user). I have a three year old Dell laptop (on it now) with the original battery as well. My battery run time has dropped from around 5 hours new to about 2 1/2 hours now after that three year (and fairly heavy use) period. Given how I have not talked to too many people who have owned their e-bikes for more than a year, I think some of the trepidation regarding the batteries on these things may be a bit misplaced. I have a buddy locally with an iZip he uses constantly here in the Texas heat and after a bit over a year of constant use, his battery is still fine - just as one example obviously.

 

[Stromer Bomber]

The 14.5 Ah battery on my Stromer ST1 Platinum was fine for 2 years and 9 months, and in the last two weeks it turned into being useless. I charged my battery after almost every ride, and it charged into the 90% for most of that time.

In the last two weeks it charged into the lower 80's twice, into the 50's twice. and then about 15% - on the Stromer it stops working when the battery is aound 12%, so as soon as I tried to ride it the battery went dead. I always charged the battery in my garage, and the tempature is usually in the 60's in there - got to love this California weather.

The cheapest 14.5 Ah Stromer replacement battery I could find was $785 delivered to my front door. So unless these batteries get cheaper, I'm looking at an almsot $800 battery expense every 33 months - but it beats driving my car on a lot of trips I do on my bike.

My hope is the next time I need a new battery a company will be able to rebuild my old battery for a lot less than they go for now!

 

[Ian]

The 14.5 Ah battery on my Stromer ST1 Platinum was fine for 2 years and 9 months, and in the last two weeks it turned into being useless.

How many miles & corresponding charge cycles did you do in those 2 years and 9 months?

 

[Stromer Bomber]

How many miles & corresponding charge cycles did you do in those 2 years and 9 months?

I had about 1,550 miles on the clock and I charged it every time after I rode - so It must of been close to 600 charges. But since it was over the two year warranty period Stromer would not cut me a small break on a new battery so I paid full price on my new one.

 

[Ian]

I had about 1,550 miles on the clock and I charged it every time after I rode - so It must of been close to 600 charges. But since it was over the two year warranty period Stromer would not cut me a small break on a new battery so I paid full price on my new one.

Interesting - that seems like a really low number of miles to get on a battery before it goes bad. I just got my ODK U500 with a 32Ah battery a couple weeks ago. I am averaging about 20 miles a day so far - if I keep that average up over the two year warranty I'd get 14,600 miles before the warranty is up. I'm hoping the battery can last for at least 30,000 miles (about 700 charge cycles at 42 miles per charge). Replacement cost is $1,700 I believe, so that would be 5.6 cents per mile over the course of a battery's life. That's about the same as the price per mile in my car for gas interestingly.

At $1,700 replacement for a 1,536 Wh battery, that's $1,100 per kWh.

 

[Stromer Bomber]

Your battery may be differant than my Stromer battery. I rode my e-bike a lot in the first year, but then rode my new pedal MTB three days a week for the next two years and only used my e-bike on errands. I always made sure the battery never dropped below 50% when sitting, so who knows if I would of had better results if I rode the bike every day during that time,