Basic Hydra suspension

Deacon Blues

Well-Known Member
What do you guys think of the basic Hydra suspension (DVO Diamond 2D front and DVO Topaz T3 Air in the rear)
I'll only be riding on medium/mild trails, rail trails, and pavement, so would be basic suspension be okay, or should I option up to the Mezzer Pro in the front and Manitou Mara in the rear?
 
From what I've been reading online/seeing on YouTube, DVO makes some of the best stuff on the market when it comes to mtb suspension and some people even prefer it over Fox which appears to be the gold standard. Even though it's specced as the base suspension on the Hydra, it's actually pretty high end ($500 shock, $700 fork). You would not need to upgrade if you're only doing mild/medium trail riding.

I love the D2 (it's actually an E2 for e-bikes) that I just fitted to my Hydra, super plush and very tunable. I reached out to DVO and they recommended I add 10ml of 7.5 weight fork oil to improve progression of the air spring, which would help prevent bottom out when running lower pressures for plush feel. This is similar to how RockShox and Fox have air volume spacers. They've got an interesting spring mechanism that they call OTT which improves small bump sensitivity (trail chatter and small roots) while still being supportive in the mid stroke.
 
The DVO Topaz is more comparable to the Mara Pro with the external bladder, but you won't need the bladder if you're not really moving that suspension back and forth. You'll get great parts/customer support with either DVO or Manitou, but the Mezzer Pro is a fork made for some serious trails. IIRC both DVO and Manitou sell every single part for their stuff so you can do a complete rebuild no matter what, and with Manitou (more than likely DVO as well) you can swap in compatible upgrade parts.

When I was speaking to Dougal at Shockcraft about getting the IRT upgrade and high-flow damper valve for my Mastodon Pro he told me that his high flow damper valve works so well Manitou copied the design for the Mezzer Pro as of MY2021+, so in effect my Mastodon Pro is now a Mezzer Pro with fatbike spacing (and 34mm stanchions instead of 37mm, but no biggie since I'm not fat and I'm too scared to ride black trails)

Reading up on the DVO fork it looks like the OTT feature is similar to the Manitou IRT in what it does for the rider. The IRT just replaces the volume spacers with a 3rd air chamber (the 2nd is negative self-balancing with the 1st) and allows to you run a much lower pressue in the main chamber, for better small bump compliance and a more tunable progressive rate. The OTT seems like an independent (from the main chamber) preload on the negative chamber with less adjustment (3 points vs 'infinite rate' of air pressure) - but being a coil spring would probably have better small bump absorption and less stiction - so the main benefit of a coil fork with the lower weight and better adjustability/progressive rate of an air spring (with the main chamber and volume adjustment via fork fluid). @kwseattle where did they have you add the oil? Pretty cool they can do that to reduce the volume in the air spring in lieu of spacers, gives you a finer adjustability than volume spacers - and it doesn't look like you need any special tools other than the vise grips? The Manitou fork requires a $60 set of bits for service, but at least the split spline thingy is the same as a cassette removal tool.

In the Topaz it's just the little volume spacer rings in the negative & positive chambers but very easy to add, then setting the bladder pressure and chamber pressure, then the little knob.

TL;DR go with the DVO option as the rear shock is better and the Manitou fork is probably overkill. I bet the DVO fork can get as comfy as the Manitou in your situation and may even be better at higher speeds on smoother trails thanks to the coil in the OTT - that feature just isn't as easily as adjusted as the IRT but should be more of a set and forget since coils aren't affected by air temp and heat buildup like cair springs are. Spend that price difference on carbon bars and accessories - carbon bars help a lot with vibrations and save a little weight.
 
The DVO Topaz is more comparable to the Mara Pro with the external bladder, but you won't need the bladder if you're not really moving that suspension back and forth. You'll get great parts/customer support with either DVO or Manitou, but the Mezzer Pro is a fork made for some serious trails. IIRC both DVO and Manitou sell every single part for their stuff so you can do a complete rebuild no matter what, and with Manitou (more than likely DVO as well) you can swap in compatible upgrade parts.

When I was speaking to Dougal at Shockcraft about getting the IRT upgrade and high-flow damper valve for my Mastodon Pro he told me that his high flow damper valve works so well Manitou copied the design for the Mezzer Pro as of MY2021+, so in effect my Mastodon Pro is now a Mezzer Pro with fatbike spacing (and 34mm stanchions instead of 37mm, but no biggie since I'm not fat and I'm too scared to ride black trails)

Reading up on the DVO fork it looks like the OTT feature is similar to the Manitou IRT in what it does for the rider. The IRT just replaces the volume spacers with a 3rd air chamber (the 2nd is negative self-balancing with the 1st) and allows to you run a much lower pressue in the main chamber, for better small bump compliance and a more tunable progressive rate. The OTT seems like an independent (from the main chamber) preload on the negative chamber with less adjustment (3 points vs 'infinite rate' of air pressure) - but being a coil spring would probably have better small bump absorption and less stiction - so the main benefit of a coil fork with the lower weight and better adjustability/progressive rate of an air spring (with the main chamber and volume adjustment via fork fluid). @kwseattle where did they have you add the oil? Pretty cool they can do that to reduce the volume in the air spring in lieu of spacers, gives you a finer adjustability than volume spacers - and it doesn't look like you need any special tools other than the vise grips? The Manitou fork requires a $60 set of bits for service, but at least the split spline thingy is the same as a cassette removal tool.

In the Topaz it's just the little volume spacer rings in the negative & positive chambers but very easy to add, then setting the bladder pressure and chamber pressure, then the little knob.

TL;DR go with the DVO option as the rear shock is better and the Manitou fork is probably overkill. I bet the DVO fork can get as comfy as the Manitou in your situation and may even be better at higher speeds on smoother trails thanks to the coil in the OTT - that feature just isn't as easily as adjusted as the IRT but should be more of a set and forget since coils aren't affected by air temp and heat buildup like cair springs are. Spend that price difference on carbon bars and accessories - carbon bars help a lot with vibrations and save a little weight.
Robert at DVO suggested to "add 10cc of 7.5WT oil above the air piston" which just requires a 32mm thin-walled socket. Unfortunately I don't have a 32mm so I'd have to run to Harbor Freight or something to grab one, annoyingly I bought a 27mm socket for the Suntour I had. If Suntour doesn't respond to my warranty request (they haven't yet and it's been a week) or no one buys it, it's headed into the trash or getting donated.
 
Also, what's the difference between the bike coming with a 48V or 52V?
I think the main difference Pushkar said going from 52V to 48V was to be able to squeeze an extra parallel series of cells in the pack that way, and that has the dual effect of increasing the number of cells/energy in the pack and decreasing the current load on each cell (1000/52/4=4.8A... vs 1000/48/5=4.16A... at nominal voltage) which would also squeeze a little more energy per cell. I genuinely have no idea if battery voltage influences motor phase voltage at all, but electric motors do have a Kv rating which is how many rpm from 1V with no load it gets - so if battery voltage does affect phase voltage then in theory you'd be able to spin the motor faster. Also with higher voltage there's less power loss through the cables and connections - though we're talking a few watts difference lost in the wires and pack cell connections - probably a smaller difference than moving to 10AWG and using copper vs nickel for the pack assembly.

@kwseattle that's a little annoying but not too shabby - the Manitou forks require an 8mm thin wall socket, 24mm flat ground socket, and then the split cassette tool, plus a crow's foot wrench for full service. I was pleased that you can change the travel without draining/refilling the bath oil though.
 
I switched from 52v -> 48v. Mainly for 720wh -> 840wh. I've noticed no downside. Both because I don't care about peak power, and I imagine difference is really noticable.. 8% higher voltage won't make up for 16% smaller battery. Also to note bike was designed for 48v. The the battery case perfectly fits 13s5p. The pack I got take shell off and it looks like it came off assembly line it was so clean. 14s4p does not fit very well, looks a little janky to fit and ends up with some empty space. Take shell off and it looks like someone assembed by hand, excess wire and tape. The frame was designed for a specific BMS to be used, so that the side button on frame works to turn pack on/off. The 48v works as it should. The 52v button doesn't do anything cause its the 'wrong' BMS. It doesn't really matter.. but when you insert 52v in bike you'll get a spark because pack is always 'on'. Insert a 48v pack no spark because its 'off' until you press button on frame to turn it on. -- The 52v BMS is nicer in every other way though. Honestly that's downside to 48v.. the 52v BMS (assuming they all use the same BMS my 52v pack had) is nicer. It has bluetooth and you can configure it to some degree. Its nice to be ablet easily connect to it with phone and see voltages of each cell in series. (All that empty space in 52v pack gives it space to have a bigger BMS, the 48v is so packed perfectly with cells only a specific BMS will fit.)

IMO you can't go wrong with either 48v or 52v. I don't consider either 'better'.. I don't think 52v->48v was like a downgrade or was much of an upgrade.
 
I think the main difference Pushkar said going from 52V to 48V was to be able to squeeze an extra parallel series of cells in the pack that way, and that has the dual effect of increasing the number of cells/energy in the pack and decreasing the current load on each cell (1000/52/4=4.8A... vs 1000/48/5=4.16A... at nominal voltage) which would also squeeze a little more energy per cell. I genuinely have no idea if battery voltage influences motor phase voltage at all, but electric motors do have a Kv rating which is how many rpm from 1V with no load it gets - so if battery voltage does affect phase voltage then in theory you'd be able to spin the motor faster. Also with higher voltage there's less power loss through the cables and connections - though we're talking a few watts difference lost in the wires and pack cell connections - probably a smaller difference than moving to 10AWG and using copper vs nickel for the pack assembly.

@kwseattle that's a little annoying but not too shabby - the Manitou forks require an 8mm thin wall socket, 24mm flat ground socket, and then the split cassette tool, plus a crow's foot wrench for full service. I was pleased that you can change the travel without draining/refilling the bath oil though.
I uncapped the air spring on my DVO (gouged the aluminum on the nut, too, while I was at it 😭) and lifted it up to find that there was nowhere for me to add oil. Reached back out to DVO and he mentioned that I need to remove the core of the valve and add it in there, and "make sure you put at least 100psi in the cartridge before tightening the top cap back up. You want the fork to be at full extension so there is no negative air pressure in the lowers" which I absolutely did not do when putting it back together (oops). I'll take it back apart this weekend when my valve core remover tool arrives. I'll have to use a syringe to get the oil in there, which is fine because I've actually got a bunch of broad needled syringes for cleaning fountain pens.

I switched from 52v -> 48v. Mainly for 720wh -> 840wh. I've noticed no downside. Both because I don't care about peak power, and I imagine difference is really noticable.. 8% higher voltage won't make up for 16% smaller battery. Also to note bike was designed for 48v. The the battery case perfectly fits 13s5p. The pack I got take shell off and it looks like it came off assembly line it was so clean. 14s4p does not fit very well, looks a little janky to fit and ends up with some empty space. Take shell off and it looks like someone assembed by hand, excess wire and tape. The frame was designed for a specific BMS to be used, so that the side button on frame works to turn pack on/off. The 48v works as it should. The 52v button doesn't do anything cause its the 'wrong' BMS. It doesn't really matter.. but when you insert 52v in bike you'll get a spark because pack is always 'on'. Insert a 48v pack no spark because its 'off' until you press button on frame to turn it on. -- The 52v BMS is nicer in every other way though. Honestly that's downside to 48v.. the 52v BMS (assuming they all use the same BMS my 52v pack had) is nicer. It has bluetooth and you can configure it to some degree. Its nice to be ablet easily connect to it with phone and see voltages of each cell in series. (All that empty space in 52v pack gives it space to have a bigger BMS, the 48v is so packed perfectly with cells only a specific BMS will fit.)

IMO you can't go wrong with either 48v or 52v. I don't consider either 'better'.. I don't think 52v->48v was like a downgrade or was much of an upgrade.
Glad to hear some more details about the 48v switch, I'm considering it because if WW were to go out of business I'm scared it would be hard to get a replacement 52V pack if I ever needed one.
 
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