Archon X1 question

G

greeno

Well-Known Member
Region
USA
City
San Diego
I haven't reached out yet to MR. P. but I have a couple of questions regarding this great controller maybe someone else who knows can chime in.
Does anyone know if the (3) wattage choices for either the motor combo or Controller Upgrade are for the same physical controller? Is it just the "Dealer" program setting for amperage that is changed?
750w is probably 25a, 1000w is probably 30a, and the 2300w is probably 45a I'm guessing or are they three different circuit boards?

Another thing is what is the difference in some G510 motors having a 48v sticker or a 52v sticker I thought they were all 48v?

So These "New" Controllers are neither Canbus or Uart but still Innotrace correct?
 
Same physical controller, just calibrated for each motor, up to max wattage. Once calibrated can be tuned down but not up (beyond calibration). Voltage is an input parameter so controller can feed accurate SOC% to display and nanny battery as it gets low.
 
greeno said:
I haven't reached out yet to MR. P. but I have a couple of questions regarding this great controller maybe someone else who knows can chime in.
Does anyone know if the (3) wattage choices for either the motor combo or Controller Upgrade are for the same physical controller? Is it just the "Dealer" program setting for amperage that is changed?
750w is probably 25a, 1000w is probably 30a, and the 2300w is probably 45a I'm guessing or are they three different circuit boards?

Another thing is what is the difference in some G510 motors having a 48v sticker or a 52v sticker I thought they were all 48v?

So These "New" Controllers are neither Canbus or Uart but still Innotrace correct?
Click to expand...
The only thing I think I know for sure is that it pulls 45 amps at 2300 watts.

I'm using the Bafang 500C display which has up to 9 settings that can be used. I set mine up as follows:

3 levels at 750W = 15 amps (45/2300) X 750 = 14.67
3 levels at 1000W = 20 amps (45/2300) X 1000 = 19.56
3 levels at 1500W = 30 amps (45/2300) X 1500 = 29.35

I set my pedal assist at levels 2, 3, and 4 for each amp setting to total the 9 settings.

What I can tell you for certain is that I can tell the difference between the PAS levels, and I can tell the difference in motor power between the three amp settings I programmed. Whether I'm actually getting 750, 1000, and 1500 watts out of the amp settings I'm really not sure. But, so far this seems to be a good range for my riding.
 
So the $100 and $200 upcharge for the higher wattage motors is just a calibration process in the "Motor" section on the Dealer software and not a physical component change. Seems kind of steep to me. Not bitchen just sayin.
I wonder what the MAX settings are for these motor/controller's are? I think I read somewhere where Pushkar said the motors could sustain the 2300w load for an acceptable period of time so limiting at that value seems smart.
On another perimeter in that section is "Battery Cells" and using 13 or 14 would correspond to either 48v or 52v correct? Is that value just for the battery capacity % remaining?
Why do some motors have a 48v or 52v sticker on them? Does it just depend on the programing input?
So does anyone know if these motors that have been upgraded will still be able to replace with a stock controller. Had so-so luck with the older BBSHD controllers failing this one not yet and hopefully be good for a long time but if I can get a substantially less $ stock controller to keep for a spare if I ever do have an issue and have to replace it my down time would be minimal.
 
Replacing a failed Archon controller with a stock Bafang would be an interesting experiment. I would give it less than one rides time before it wore out its welcome with you. (Sounds like shipping a motor to WW and having one installed is a pretty quick turn around as long as they have it in stock.) Buy an extra controller from WW to have as back up?

A place you may have seen max wattage sustained run times is on the WW site under the "Lab" controller wattages. 3000w x minutes, 3500w x minutes - if I recall.

The $100 and $200 dollar up charges may be steep.... But, I'm glad he charges that. Otherwise it might occur to Pushkar that he has to charge an hourly rate to talk to us about our builds and answer my newbie questions......then I'd be out some real money. :)


Lawyers at $350 an hour, 15 minute minimum incriments comes to mind.
 
I believe the upcharge is to cover the additional warranty costs, in addition to providing margin. I recall pushkar saying the margin was very small (or negative) on the 750W version, and the extra cost for the higher wattage versions is where they make their money. One thing I wish they did was calibrate all the controllers to 2300W but cap them to whatever you paid for, so you could tune them up later if you find out you needed or wanted more. But I guess what they are doing provides incentive to pay up front. They need to make a profit and recover their investment. I can say I probably don't use more than 750W very often, but it's nice to have the option, so I'm glad I paid for it, and happy to support a company that is partnering with the best out there like innotrace to offer us the best there is. My satisfaction with my Frey CC would be nowhere close to what it is without the X1 upgrade.
 
Unless you have an original WW motor your Bafang warranty goes out the window when you get the X1 installed I believe.
I think the motor cost is static, the wattage values are changed when the new X1controllers are installed. Now he probably pays a higher price from whoever he gets these from depending on wattage value. If I was him I would buy 1000 motors and 1000 innotrace controllers and program all of them myself, or have someone els do it for a minimal fee. Changing out a controller and such is easy and you could do the programming after it's on the bike before shipping.
$100 charge to change (5) settings in the Motor perimeter programming? $200 for the same thing just using different values?

Are the stickers on the bottom ( 48v, 52v) a result of the programming determination?

I can get a stock Bafang G510 controller from Cal-EB shipped to my door for #201.04. I realize I have to install controller on motor but I don't have to remove motor from bike to install it. Downtime = 2 hrs maybe.
WW X1 controller is $599, upgrade to 1000w is another $100, cable and 2 yr firmware upgrade another $200 plus shipping and tax. Plus remove/install motor from bike, pack and ship both ways. Now your over a grand. Down time = Weeks

I wonder if Pushkar would sell just the X1 Controllers on their own for $? Maybe pre-define your programming values for them to do but zero warranty expected because of customer install. Otherwise you would need the Dealer programming software which I'm sure he wants to keep close, fully understand but would love to have. And no I'm not lookin for a job.

Just a hands on guy who asks a lot of questions on things I'm interested or involved in and are always trying to build a better mousetrap.
 
Correct, no motor warranty, although controller can go bad too, presumably more likely with high watt versions and extra heat. The 1000W to 2300W upcharge makes more sense than the 750W to 1000W upcharge, but like I said, the 1000W is closer to baseline. There is a non-trivial duty importing from Germany, and pushkar has to recover his cost to get the controller UL listed (something innotrace was not willing to do). I agree that all the upcharges seem a bit much. I got it all included as a helios founder, and you only pay once for the software and programming hardware no matter how many motors you have, so I did not have to pay extra, and if you are an existing WW customer you get discounts as well. Just reach out to pushkar, he's very accomodating if you e.g. don't want warranty and would prefer lower cost.
 
Sounds good.

Sorry I sounded like I think you should think like me or experience things the way I do.

In my business I bend over bakwards doing things for people. If they want to do what they're capable of themselves, I'll happily tell them how to do it best for free. Once I show up for work to get dirty if they need to be underfoot or question my charges I'll happily offer to go home, shower up and sit on the couch reading EBR - that's just me.
 
I agree there is value in almost doubling your wattage capacity ( 1000w - 2300w ) that I could see a modest charge for sure. I can almost see a charge for de-restricting the throttle as he opens the business up for increased liability exposure. Sure hope he's an LLC or S. Corp. I'm sure he is as he's a pretty smart lad. I know when I had my business I had over 2mil Gen Liability ins to cover potential issues.
I have nothing but the best to say about Pushkar as he is offering up almost any option ( within reason) available to the customer.
Honestly as far as multiple programming changes over the course of 2 years I did all mine in an afternoon or so if I remember correctly. Don't care about adding front or rear lighting or any of the additional updates that have come about. UL Listing is something I wasn't aware of but understand having to factor that in to the overall picture.
 
OK @greeno - no clue how YOU do not know about the WW Archon X1 “Labs” edition….
-BB

wattwagons.com

Bafang Ultra with Archon X1 Labs Edition

This is important, please read. These are labs edition motors, configured specially with 3000W+ version of the controller, for those who want to push the boundaries of performance. You cannot pair these motors with the standard battery packs - your BMS will trip within 5 - 10 seconds. This...
wattwagons.com wattwagons.com
 
Uhhh... What makes you think I want a 3-3.5kw motor and controller? Perfectly happy with the 1000w version. I like riding , not breaking things or killing myself.
Just making conversation and looking ahead and being prepared in case the need arrises to replace parts or whatever. Like I stated above the controller cost difference was huge between the two choices I had mentioned and it would be just for a backup until I could get the originals fixed or replaced.

So I just ordered a G510 bare bones motor and controller from ...... for $643.14 shipped to my door in hopefully 2-3 weeks. Cheap insurance to have on the shelf. Controller, Gearset, Housing, torque sensor, stator, clutch etc. Could of got one from another company for $953.67. Now if something goes south motor wise I can just remove and replace my existing X1 controller into the stock motor.
Does anyone know if the motors are matched to the controllers by serial #?

Or would an older X1 controller work in a new stock Bafang G510 motor?

Or would a new stock controller work in an originally purchased WW G510 motor?
 
Just received a reply from Mr. P and he said a new stock controller will work in an existing WW motor.
But the existing X1 controller will NOT work with a new stock motor unless it has been calibrated ( Im guessing matched up software wise ) to the X1 controller. Now I know.
He's gonna shoot me a cost to hopefully do that so I will have a backup good to go if needed.

All squared away as soon as I get the motor I will ship it to him. Lookin ahead, lookin ahead.
 
Last edited:
Yes, because if you can, that allows you to keep the warranty on the motor. If you upgrade your own motor you loose it.
 
Warranty issues are the last thing on my mind. If it breaks I'll fix it myself. This way I'm only 1/2 day down max on pretty much anything motor related. Even got a spare Exess E-180 frame that me and a buddy ( who has the same bike ) bought for a good price and whoever needs it first buys the other guy out.
As far as getting the motor from Pushkar, $600 or $1,500 for a spare motor on my shelf, let me think on that one.
Im more interested in possible down time as I have gotten rid of my other bikes, so no backup.

Watch in another year I'll probably be riding something totally different so all this is for naught.
 
It wasn't clear that you were just interested in a spare motor. I thought you just needed a motor and plannrd to upgrade the controller. In which case buying it from pushkar is the obvious choice as opposed to buying one and swapping out the controller which would require sending in your motor.
 
Also, if you already have a motor and planning to upgrade and also buy a spare motor why not just buy the motor and controller from pushkar and keep your original motor as the spare?
 
greeno said:
Or would an older X1 controller work in a new stock Bafang G510 motor?

Or would a new stock controller work in an originally purchased WW G510 motor?
Click to expand...
You can't just replace a controller.
They both (stock and x1) need calibrating. Not a DIY job!
 
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