Another twist to throttle vs PAS ebikes....Comments wanted...

[Ebiker01]

We can also put pedals in a car and using different gear ratios make a PAS ? . That woukd be fun.. and let’s limit them to 35mph.
But seriously throttle is common sense. We are not machines, may need a break smtms. -use throttle, coming from heavy gym workout -use throttle, carrying 75lb of groceries in the panniers - use throttle.
And then is the Question of - What throttle is the safest and best ?
I believe that the one just how motorcycles have is the best . The thumb one or the twust is too obstructionist. Having the moto throttle you don’t need to move or place your input in another location.
Ex. From the handlegrip to the twist throttle ot the thumb one..
Well for someone with BIG hands is doable.

 

[Ken M]

Only two hard reasons for a throttle on two wheels; you have a disability or you want a scooter. The rest is just personal preference and a throttle has nothing to do with transportation/urban mobility.

Think of it this way. Transportation has to be reliable / always available. A throttle only ebike would not have hall sensors in the motor, torque sensors in the bottom bracket, cadence sensors on the spokes, or need brakes with electric cutoff of the motor. Seems rational to me that it would just prove to be more reliable than a PAS.

If you drive a car you are essentially using the equivalent of the throttle to control the power the car provides and that has worked now for over 100 years....and yet you claim it has nothing to do with transportation. Really?

I think you are kind of bringing my point front and center. The hype of PASs has many convinced that an ebike is not the equivalent of a bike if it has a throttle.

 

[vincent]

good point about the simplicity of a throttle only system

 

[6zfshdb]

Just my two cents:

There isn't much difference between a bike with a throttle and one with a cadence PAS system. Both can be ridden without effort if you "ghost" pedal the PAS bike. I don't understand why a dealer wouldn't realize this. Is ghost pedaling "cheating" less than throttle use? Does coasting any bike downhill without pedaling violate this dealers opinion of the "biking experience"? While there are those who buy e-bikes for throttle use only, I don't believe they represent the majority of buyers.

My Pedego has a throttle which I didn't want at first. I bought the bike for other reasons including the fact that the dealer told me the throttle could be easily removed. After riding it for over a year now, I decided to keep the throttle. Where I ride, class I and class II bikes are regulated equally so a throttle-less bike has no advantage. I use it sparingly, mostly to help getting started on a hill or standing on the pedals without peddling to reduce butt discomfort.

I find it difficult to tell if a bike I pass has a throttle since the riders hand covers the grip. I don't think the average person could tell if an e-bike has a throttle or not which, in my mind, would minimize any discrimination or snobbery by the general public.

I don't ride city streets much but I can see where a throttle on a commuter bike would be handy for quickly clearing intersections. Frequent stop / start conditions, reduced riding time and arriving at a destination without being drenched in sweat are other factors. For these reasons alone, bikes with throttles are indeed more practical for urban transportation.

Cities that regulate Class I, II and III e-bikes differently is a major factor though.

 

[ez3putt]

I would never own a bike without a throttle and I would never own a bike without PAS. The throttle allows for infinitely variable speed control while PAS, not so much. I occasionally need to ride at 3-5 mph avoiding obstacles while making my own trail through the woods. PAS level 1 tries to get me up to six mph. I turn PAS off and use the throttle with some manual pedal assistance in first gear. At 72 years old, I am not going to pedal a 63 pound fatty very far through soft dirt or mud.

My bike is currently configured as a Class III. Since PAS level 7 provides assistance to about 22 mph, any PAS level above 7 would probably get me through an intersection quicker than throttle only which tops out at 20 mph. Although, it is unlikely I would even get up to 20 just crossing an intersection from a dead stop. I just like the idea of better control over my acceleration using the throttle.

I normally only use the throttle for starting from a stop or shooting through an intersection, there were two instances last month where the throttle really came in handy. The chain came off about 300 yards from my parking garage. Rather than put it back on in 90 degree heat I throttled to the relative cool of the garage. Another time I was on a multi-use path and came upon a low spot in the trail that was under 4-5 inches of water from some recent rainfall. I just raised my feet and throttled through at a very slow speed with my feet up for about forty yards.

 

[Ken M]

I'm of the belief that a PAS system, along with a throttle control compliment each other really well. I'm failing to understand why, given the option, one would go with a bike that did not include both systems.

The throttle for it's ability to give you full power right now, and the PAS to allow a setting for your speed of preference while pedaling with the amount of effort you're willing to contribute. With PAS, there is no requirement that you be working your butt off to maintain a legal speed.

"Ghost" pedaling requires little effort on the part of the rider, and with the PAS level set appropriately for wind, grade, and surface conditions, will allow you any speed the bike is able to achieve. If you want to go faster and further, put some effort into it!

Keep in mind that if a rider uses a throttle correctly there is no reason it would not feel exactly like a PAS system but without all the sensors and programming. The issue with throttle ebikes is that people are lazy and they tend to ride them like a moped instead of pedaling. Regardless the throttle always provides the desired assist level for all rider physical abilities, body size, and mental fortitude which no PAS system has achieved yet (they do a good job but people really never pay attention to the weaknesses when ridding - for example the Yamaha PX actually drops assist when downshifting up a hill such that the rider actually feels like they are pedaling harder after downshifting so they downshift 2 gears to compensate -- this is very repeatable if you want to verify).

 

[Ken M]

I would never own a bike without a throttle and I would never own a bike without PAS. The throttle allows for infinitely variable speed control while PAS, not so much. I occasionally need to ride at 3-5 mph avoiding obstacles while making my own trail through the woods. PAS level 1 tries to get me up to six mph. I turn PAS off and use the throttle with some manual pedal assistance in first gear. At 72 years old, I am not going to pedal a 63 pound fatty very far through soft dirt or mud.

My bike is currently configured as a Class III. Since PAS level 7 provides assistance to about 22 mph, any PAS level above 7 would probably get me through an intersection quicker than throttle only which tops out at 20 mph. Although, it is unlikely I would even get up to 20 just crossing an intersection from a dead stop. I just like the idea of better control over my acceleration using the throttle.

I normally only use the throttle for starting from a stop or shooting through an intersection, there were two instances last month where the throttle really came in handy. The chain came off about 300 yards from my parking garage. Rather than put it back on in 90 degree heat I throttled to the relative cool of the garage. Another time I was on a multi-use path and came upon a low spot in the trail that was under 4-5 inches of water from some recent rainfall. I just raised my feet and throttled through at a very slow speed with my feet up for about forty yards.

Good points. I've pedaled thru some deep water on the path one night and then realized the water was above the lower level of my pedal stroke so my feet got soaking wet. My issue is that is a great reason to want a throttle. I can simply not think of a compelling reason to add a bunch of sensors on a bike and have some programmer decide what assist is wanted based on signals from those sensors. Why not just allow the rider to set the assist with an infinitely variable throttle....as god intended.... a bit over the top but thought it was funny.

 

[Ken M]

Just my two cents:

There isn't much difference between a bike with a throttle and one with a cadence PAS system. Both can be ridden without effort if you "ghost" pedal the PAS bike. I don't understand why a dealer wouldn't realize this. Is ghost pedaling "cheating" less than throttle use? Does coasting any bike downhill without pedaling violate this dealers opinion of the "biking experience"? While there are those who buy e-bikes for throttle use only, I don't believe they represent the majority of buyers.

My Pedego has a throttle which I didn't want at first. I bought the bike for other reasons including the fact that the dealer told me the throttle could be easily removed. After riding it for over a year now, I decided to keep the throttle. Where I ride, class I and class II bikes are regulated equally so a throttle-less bike has no advantage. I use it sparingly, mostly to help getting started on a hill or standing on the pedals without peddling to reduce butt discomfort.

I find it difficult to tell if a bike I pass has a throttle since the riders hand covers the grip. I don't think the average person could tell if an e-bike has a throttle or not which, in my mind, would minimize any discrimination or snobbery by the general public.

I don't ride city streets much but I can see where a throttle on a commuter bike would be handy for quickly clearing intersections. Frequent stop / start conditions, reduced riding time and arriving at a destination without being drenched in sweat are other factors. For these reasons alone, bikes with throttles are indeed more practical for urban transportation.

Cities that regulate Class I, II and III e-bikes differently is a major factor though.

in reality states and cities can not regulate class 1, 2, or even 3 differently if you really read the federal ebike definition. The federal requlations state that states can only regulate the usage, not redefine what is a compliant/legal ebike/bike equivalent.

 

[Tars Tarkas]

I think a reasonable argument can be made that a pedal-assist only e-bike with a restricted maximum speed should be treated as a bicycle. E-bikes equipped with throttles on the other hand are problematic. We already had vehicles which used both pedal input, a motor, and had a throttle -- we call them mopeds. My own guess is I can see a future where the price of legal acceptance of e-bikes is that e-bikes with throttles have to go away.

I don't understand how a throttle matters. If you're propelling 300 lbs of bike, person, groceries, etc., down the path at 21 mph, why does it matter whether your means of propulsion is muscle, electricity, wind, gravity, or nuclear? If you hit someone they're going to be just as flat no matter what kind of power you're using.

Responsible, considerate, careful biking, is the answer, in my opinion, not restrictions on throttles.

My Radrover has PAS and a throttle (that can be switched off). I use the throttle when I'm in automobile traffic downtown and taking off from an intersection. After about 3 seconds PAS takes over and I don't touch the throttle. For general riding I never use the throttle, but I'm glad it's there.

I don't see any real argument against throttles, other than some sort of elitist (but otherwise probably baseless) bias. My opinion...

TT

 

[AHicks]

It may help people to respond with better, more useful info if you are more specific to what power type you are thinking of when asking a question/seeking info/input. On a hub powered bike for instance, a PAS sensor is incredibly simple. I can see where a mid drive would be much more complicated/difficult to add.

Still, modulating a throttle control on bumpy ground well enough to get smooth output, compared to what you might get from a PAS system over equally bumpy terrain, would be pretty difficult.

That is, unless you ride only on strictly well maintained smooth surfaces - something else worth mentioning if that's the case.

 

[Katysax]

I’ve had 2 e bikes with throttle only and 2 with throttle plus PAS. Before I had PAS I pedaled and moderated the throttle. My preference is to have both. I like PAS better overall but sometimes throttle is helpful in starting off or speeding through an intersection. My throttle tops out at 20 but I easily ride faster at the highest levels of assist but I’m usually riding at a low level of assist and the throttle can be a useful boost. When I had throttle only I thought it was boring to just use the throttle. My level of effort was the same as a PAS bike. In fact after commuting 12 miles each way a few months on the throttle only bike I switched to a bike with no electric assist because the ebike made me very strong and I was tired of motor and battery failures.

 

[Ken M]

It may help people to respond with better, more useful info if you are more specific to what power type you are thinking of when asking a question/seeking info/input. On a hub powered bike for instance, a PAS sensor is incredibly simple. I can see where a mid drive would be much more complicated/difficult to add.

Still, modulating a throttle control on bumpy ground well enough to get smooth output, compared to what you might get from a PAS system over equally bumpy terrain, would be pretty difficult.

That is, unless you ride only on strictly well maintained smooth surfaces - something else worth mentioning if that's the case.

Not sure of the relevance of stating the power levels of the different motor types. I understand that mid-drives have more torque per wattage rating because of internal gearing but I wanted to see if riders really thought a PAS had merits over the tried and true simple throttle on an ebike intended for urban mobility / transportation (pretty much means the surfaces will mostly be smooth and paved).

I just think most people (even ebike buyers/riders) view bikes as a recreational or leisure product and not really something fully capable of supplementing a car.

Last note....I rode a motorcross motorcycle for many years and I never had an issue retaining a power level with the throttle so not sure why that would be different on a bike on less than smooth surfaces.

 

[Ken M]

Think of it this way. Transportation has to be reliable / always available. A throttle only ebike would not have hall sensors in the motor, torque sensors and cadence sensor in the bottom bracket, speed sensors on the spokes, or brakes with electric cutoff of the motor. Seems rational to me that a throttle only ebike will always be more reliable than a PAS ebike or does anyone want to debate the statistics of simple vs complex.

If you drive a car you are essentially using the equivalent of the throttle to control the power the car provides and that has worked now for over 100 years....and yet you claim it has nothing to do with transportation. Really?

I think you are kind of bringing my point front and center. The hype of PASs has many convinced that an ebike is not the equivalent of a bike if it has a throttle.

 

[AZOldTech]

BTW, I found this from Bosch's page: https://www.bosch-ebike.com/us/everything-about-the-ebike/stories/three-class-ebike-system/
IMO, I think we need a federal regulation that applies to all 50 states, rather than each state having their own unique differences. And based on the definitions below, I can see why mechanical bikers are calling ebikes going faster than 20mph "cheaters"....

The three classes are defined as follows:

• Class 1: eBikes that are pedal-assist only, with no throttle, and have a maximum assisted speed of 20 mph.
• Class 2: eBikes that also have a maximum speed of 20 mph, but are throttle-assisted.
• Class 3: eBikes that are pedal-assist only, with NO throttle, and a maximum assisted speed of 28 mph.

All classes limit the motor’s power to 1 horsepower (750W).

Classes and Access
Some states treat Class 1 eBikes like traditional mountain or pavement bicycles, legally allowed to ride where bicycles are permitted, including bike lanes, roads, multiuse trails and bike-only paths. New York City’s Mayor de Blasio recently announced the city will officially allow Class 1 eBikes. While New York City’s decision is unrelated to singletrack trail use for electric mountain bikes (eMTBs), we believe that Class 1 pedal-assist eBikes should have the same rights and responsibilities as traditional bikes and therefore also be allowed on non-motorized mountain bike trails, as is the case in Europe.

Class 2 throttle-assist eBikes are often allowed most places a traditional bicycle can go, though some states and cities are opting for additional restrictions (e.g. New York City & Michigan State). Class 2 may not be suitable for singletrack mountainbike trails - it has been shown that they pose greater physical damage to trails due to the throttle-actuation. Class 2 may be better suited for multi-use OHV trails designed for more rugged off-road vehicles.

Class 3 Bikes (ed: remember that class 3 - or an ebike going faster than 20mph - is supposed to have NO throttle) are typically allowed on roads and on-road bike lanes (“curb to curb” infrastructure), but restricted from bike trails and multiuse paths. While a 20-mph maximum speed is achievable on a traditional bicycle, decision makers and agencies consider the greater top-assisted speed of a Class 3 eBike too fast for most bike paths and trails that are often shared with other trail users.

Everyone stands to benefit from common-sense rules on how and where to ride an eBike. With clear regulation and updated state laws, law enforcement will understand what rights eBike users have and when to enforce the law, and easily identify the class of bike based on the sticker. Bike retailers can help their customers understand where each type of eBike can be used, boosting their sales. People who already ride eBkes will have easy rules to follow on where they can ride, and new bicyclists who may be discouraged from riding a traditional bicycle due to limited physical fitness, age, disability or convenience gain new transportation alternatives.

 

[PDoz]

I have mixed feelings.

I'm excited by the prospect of electric throttle assist transport , and VERY tempted to buy something like the ubco 2x2 road registerable electric all terrain motorbike https://www.ubcobikes.com/ - drop the price by about 20% or double the range and I'd already have one. But it'd be used as a bike / motorbike crossover - versatile transport, but I wouldn't expect to be taking that thing on bicycle trails. Licenced, insured, and with several decades of motorbike experience under my belt.

But sharing bicycle lanes? I don't think so. I guess there needs to be some sort of bicycle behaviour to justify that privilege . I'm not sure it's directly related to spinning cranks, so a throttle that keeps me behaving like a bicycle rider is probably fine. But when I'm able to travel faster and easier than other cyclists without any effort, there really needs to be some way to ensure I've developed the skills to not pose a public risk. Speed / power limits or some way to ensure training / insurance / public accountability?

Generally speaking, the spandexers who travel too fast on bicycle trails have at least spent enough time in the saddle to develop riding skills. Not always common sense or courtesy, but at least the skills to hopefully reduce the public disaster potential. Usually.

Put some new cyclist on a throttle controlled super ebike? It just sounds like a recipe for injuries, which then starts posing a risk for the rest of us when some pen pushers cousin gets knocked over and injured....

Perhaps a throttle that can only be activated after the first 1000 km ? Or some sort of licence for throttle bikes ( and loss of licence for being a moron) ?

 

[AHicks]

Not sure of the relevance of stating the power levels of the different motor types. I understand that mid-drives have more torque per wattage rating because of internal gearing but I wanted to see if riders really thought a PAS had merits over the tried and true simple throttle on an ebike intended for urban mobility / transportation (pretty much means the surfaces will mostly be smooth and paved).

I just think most people (even ebike buyers/riders) view bikes as a recreational or leisure product and not really something fully capable of supplementing a car.

Last note....I rode a motorcross motorcycle for many years and I never had an issue retaining a power level with the throttle so not sure why that would be different on a bike on less than smooth surfaces.

Ken, it wasn't the amount of power I was referring to, it was the type of power (hub vs. mid drive). You were commenting regarding the complexity of the PAS system. Not knowing you were talking about a mid drive, my comment to you (and I think others may have been thinking along the same lines) was regarding the extreme simplicity of a PAS system - as used on a hub drive system. From a practical standpoint, they're no more complex than a headlight. Mid-drive is obviously a whole different story.

And after using a PAS system since I started riding e-bikes, the throttle seems a very strange sort of compromise when compared to a functional PAS system, especially one tuned to your riding style (using a tuneable controller, like Bolton's for instance). A throttle does though, have some features I would miss if it were not installed. My bikes will have both, no doubt. -Al

 

[trailerguy52]

I have a class 2 e-mtb, the last time I road it I had trouble remembering how to engage the throttle as I never use it and wanted to be sure that it worked properly in case I should need it. I have a knee that gives me some trouble and if I am out on the bike the throttle will get me home. I enjoy the ghost pedaling as it causes little stress to my knees and keeps the blood flowing. The best of both worlds. I don't get the hoopla about throttles.

 

[Bruce Arnold]

I use the throttle less than 5% of the time. PAS does the job for me, except in certain circumstances.

The Throttle Assist Boost (TAB) on Juiced Bikes is great for that sudden surge of acceleration. For those who are unfamiliar, it is a combination of throttle and PAS. Instantly sends around 1000 watts to the motor. Talk about getting through an intersection fast!

Also, it's not all-or-nothing with TAB. Sometimes in a sudden gust of wind, rather than adjust the PAS level, feathering the throttle gives a little extra TAB and then back to PAS only.

Sometimes, since I have COPD, I use the throttle to catch my breath after more vigorous pedaling, although with the Juiced Bikes' cruise control, I usually depend on that. It's worth noting that the motor doesn't know whether it is the thumb throttle or cruise control; Tora states that cruise control basically is a form of throttle. I reckon they use the same circuits.

These are just some of the occasions when I find the throttle helpful.

Here's the deal IMO: it's just another tool. Like any tool, you don't have to use it if you don't want to. But it's nice to have it there if you decide you want it.

I'm not clear why anyone would be against it. I've read many posts that explain someone's reasons why they think a throttle is not needed. They haven't yet harmonized with my experience.

 

[Ken M]

BTW, I found this from Bosch's page: https://www.bosch-ebike.com/us/everything-about-the-ebike/stories/three-class-ebike-system/
IMO, I think we need a federal regulation that applies to all 50 states, rather than each state having their own unique differences. And based on the definitions below, I can see why mechanical bikers are calling ebikes going faster than 20mph "cheaters"....

The three classes are defined as follows:

• Class 1: eBikes that are pedal-assist only, with no throttle, and have a maximum assisted speed of 20 mph.
• Class 2: eBikes that also have a maximum speed of 20 mph, but are throttle-assisted.
• Class 3: eBikes that are pedal-assist only, with NO throttle, and a maximum assisted speed of 28 mph.

All classes limit the motor’s power to 1 horsepower (750W).

Classes and Access
Some states treat Class 1 eBikes like traditional mountain or pavement bicycles, legally allowed to ride where bicycles are permitted, including bike lanes, roads, multiuse trails and bike-only paths. New York City’s Mayor de Blasio recently announced the city will officially allow Class 1 eBikes. While New York City’s decision is unrelated to singletrack trail use for electric mountain bikes (eMTBs), we believe that Class 1 pedal-assist eBikes should have the same rights and responsibilities as traditional bikes and therefore also be allowed on non-motorized mountain bike trails, as is the case in Europe.

Class 2 throttle-assist eBikes are often allowed most places a traditional bicycle can go, though some states and cities are opting for additional restrictions (e.g. New York City & Michigan State). Class 2 may not be suitable for singletrack mountainbike trails - it has been shown that they pose greater physical damage to trails due to the throttle-actuation. Class 2 may be better suited for multi-use OHV trails designed for more rugged off-road vehicles.

Class 3 Bikes (ed: remember that class 3 - or an ebike going faster than 20mph - is supposed to have NO throttle) are typically allowed on roads and on-road bike lanes (“curb to curb” infrastructure), but restricted from bike trails and multiuse paths. While a 20-mph maximum speed is achievable on a traditional bicycle, decision makers and agencies consider the greater top-assisted speed of a Class 3 eBike too fast for most bike paths and trails that are often shared with other trail users.

Everyone stands to benefit from common-sense rules on how and where to ride an eBike. With clear regulation and updated state laws, law enforcement will understand what rights eBike users have and when to enforce the law, and easily identify the class of bike based on the sticker. Bike retailers can help their customers understand where each type of eBike can be used, boosting their sales. People who already ride eBkes will have easy rules to follow on where they can ride, and new bicyclists who may be discouraged from riding a traditional bicycle due to limited physical fitness, age, disability or convenience gain new transportation alternatives.

Everyone should read the US federal ebike regulation/definition (not an interpretation as you frequently find on forums becasue they tend to be biased). I believe the federal law clearly states that it supercedes any state defining a tighter control on what is a legal ebike which leaves the states left with regulating usage.

I have no idea how anyone would think that it's going to easy to identify the class of a ebike based on a sticker - there are already faux stickers for sale on ebay so anyone with a fast ebike can just sticker it as a Class 1 ebike.

One thing everyone needs to keep in mind is just because a 28mph assist speed may be too fast for some shared us paths there is no reason someone on that bike can't ride it safely and compliantly on that path just like a 250mph sports car can be driven compliantly on a highway at 55mph.

 

[onlineaddy]

I got my e-bike for daily commuting thinking that I would use the throttle. I have after a short while realized that I prefer the PAS, even though it only has a cadence sensor.