A generalized eBike design Amateur Cyclists can relate to and compare against

[larry-new]

Having once held an amateur license, I understand where you're coming from. My forays back into cycling these days are much reduced, and I find myself slowly adapting a commuter style ebike into something resembling a road bike, for recreation use only.

And what's with all these fat tires... a West coast thing, or a commuter compromise? I steer around any piece of gravel, imagining myself still riding sew-ups, I guess. Easily solved, in any case with a change of tires...the brakes don't even have to be moved!

My riding these days is conceptually in the extended dayride catagory...someday, I may have to change my handle to
Larry Threebatteries...there's a century still in these quads somewhere,even if assisted...call it insurance against headwinds.

Unfortunately, you are NOT preaching to the choir here, instead you are attempting to create an interest /market for the roadie, whose every move is dictated by racing, from ideal body position to O2 uptake efficiency. I still relate, but have to filter it through my 70y.o. comeback frame, and reduced appetite for discomfort.

The ebike market, it seems, has wonderfuly embraced about every biking style,even cargo (!!!) but has left the pain junkies (us) out in the cold. I don't have readily available figures, but I'm guessing that road riders are the jazz music of the music industry...the most interesting, surely, but the least compensated and catered to.

Good luck in your efforts.

 

[BikeMike]

Having once held an amateur license, I understand where you're coming from. My forays back into cycling these days are much reduced, and I find myself slowly adapting a commuter style ebike into something resembling a road bike, for recreation use only.

And what's with all these fat tires... a West coast thing, or a commuter compromise? I steer around any piece of gravel, imagining myself still riding sew-ups, I guess. Easily solved, in any case with a change of tires...the brakes don't even have to be moved!

My riding these days is conceptually in the extended dayride catagory...someday, I may have to change my handle to
Larry Threebatteries...there's a century still in these quads somewhere,even if assisted...call it insurance against headwinds.

Unfortunately, you are NOT preaching to the choir here, instead you are attempting to create an interest /market for the roadie, whose every move is dictated by racing, from ideal body position to O2 uptake efficiency. I still relate, but have to filter it through my 70y.o. comeback frame, and reduced appetite for discomfort.

The ebike market, it seems, has wonderfuly embraced about every biking style,even cargo (!!!) but has left the pain junkies (us) out in the cold. I don't have readily available figures, but I'm guessing that road riders are the jazz music of the music industry...the most interesting, surely, but the least compensated and catered to.

Good luck in your efforts.

I think the eBike industry needs to make a substantial investment in a power assist system that rides and responds in a natural way to acceleration, rather than speed. The industry seems to be making a heavy investment in carbon frames with motors. I think everyone benefits by pushing technology to the next level, especially riders with few cycling skills. Everything just gets better.

Like you mentioned, the bike must have nimble and responsive handling. I first noticed the weight of the bike, which was shocking. Second, i noticed the steering. If the tires were too big, i.e., 2.8", the bike steered imprecisely. The bike wanted to trace a different arc than my body was directing it towards.

I rode all seven test bikes in methodical manner. I pedalled them unpowered for the first mile. Almost all felt like a conventional bike. I accelerated them from a dead stop to 27mph. They all responded to pedal input like normal bikes. The strange sensation was how some of the bikes resisted my pedaling with power assist above 20mph. Some just did not budge over 20, when the same bike responded just fine with the power turned off!

Sometimes race horses and jockeys seem to function like a single unit -- an obvious winner. Other times, you can spot the losing horse because the jockey and horse are not in sync. Both parties want to go in different directions.

The big question is the business model. Is the eRoad solution about addressing needs or making the fastest buck possible?

 

[BikeMike]

I guess different riding styles have a cultural aspect. When i do something to a bike, i expect a certain type of response. When the bike reacts differently, I immediately suspect something is wrong. Is the surface different or is something broken? Will i get hurt? What action should i take to recover?

The power assist levels are also cultural. You have learned a certain set of expectations for a subtle action. Different riding styles create cultural differences.

 

[BikeMike]

Making a carbon wheel is an involved process.

 

[Trail Cruiser]

I think the eBike industry needs to make a substantial investment in a power assist system that rides and responds in a natural way to acceleration, rather than speed.

If you haven't noticed, this is where the ebike companies are moving at. The latest innovation and the most "natural" feel in power assist is what is now called "proportional assist", using torque sensors. You can dial it to the level you want (in terms of percentage multiplication of your input power). If you dial it at 50%, it adds 50% of whatever input you pedaled in. If you pedaled at 100 watts, it will add 50 more watts. Giving you a feeling of being a kid again with boundless energy.

The industry seems to be making a heavy investment in carbon frames with motors. I think everyone benefits by pushing technology to the next level, especially riders with few cycling skills. Everything just gets better.

Only very few ebikes use carbon frames since it is a double whammy in terms of the price increase. Price premium for the ebike components, plus the price premium for the carbon frame. The price becomes prohibitively astronomical.

Like you mentioned, the bike must have nimble and responsive handling. I first noticed the weight of the bike, which was shocking.

Unfortunately, until there is a major breakthrough in energy density of batteries and breakthrough in motor power to weight ratio, we are stuck with what we have right now. Many ebikes with lower weight has small batteries.

Second, i noticed the steering. If the tires were too big, i.e., 2.8", the bike steered imprecisely. The bike wanted to trace a different arc than my body was directing it towards.

This things can be dialed in. However, the increase in mass necessitates wider tires which in turn changes the steering feel and precision. It has to be compensated by having a change in castor angle similar to that of a motorcycle.

I rode all seven test bikes in methodical manner. I pedalled them unpowered for the first mile. Almost all felt like a conventional bike. I accelerated them from a dead stop to 27mph. They all responded to pedal input like normal bikes. The strange sensation was how some of the bikes resisted my pedaling with power assist above 20mph. Some just did not budge over 20, when the same bike responded just fine with the power turned off!

That is how it is designed to be. By law, the motor will provide assistance up to 20 mph and then the motor stops (speed limited by a governor). Other ebikes provides 250 watts regardless if the speed is above 20 mph, however, with such a meager power, the highest speed on level ground is about 20 mph (speed limited by terminal velocity). If you are a very strong rider and goes beyond 20 mph, the motor is still there to assist you.

Sometimes race horses and jockeys seem to function like a single unit -- an obvious winner. Other times, you can spot the losing horse because the jockey and horse are not in sync. Both parties want to go in different directions.

If you understand how these ebikes work, you can make it function to your advantage.

The big question is the business model. Is the eRoad solution about addressing needs or making the fastest buck possible?

If there is a demand, there is a a supply.

I think the eBike industry needs to make a substantial investment in a power assist system that rides and responds in a natural way to acceleration, rather than speed.

If you haven't noticed, this is where the ebike companies are moving at. The latest innovation and the most "natural" feel in power assist is what is now called "proportional assist", using torque sensors. You can dial it to the level you want (in terms of percentage multiplication of your input power). If you dial it at 50%, it adds 50% of whatever input you pedaled in. If you pedaled at 100 watts, it will add 50 more watts. Giving you a feeling of being a kid again with boundless energy.

The industry seems to be making a heavy investment in carbon frames with motors. I think everyone benefits by pushing technology to the next level, especially riders with few cycling skills. Everything just gets better.

Only very few ebikes use carbon frames since it is a double whammy in terms of the price increase. Price premium for the ebike components, plus the price premium for the carbon frame. The price becomes prohibitively astronomical.

Like you mentioned, the bike must have nimble and responsive handling. I first noticed the weight of the bike, which was shocking.

Unfortunately, until there is a major breakthrough in energy density of batteries and breakthrough in motor power to weight ratio, we are stuck with what we have right now. Many ebikes with lower weight has small batteries.

Second, i noticed the steering. If the tires were too big, i.e., 2.8", the bike steered imprecisely. The bike wanted to trace a different arc than my body was directing it towards.

This things can be dialed in. However, the increase in mass necessitates wider tires which in turn changes the steering feel and precision. It has to be compensated by having a change in castor angle similar to that of a motorcycle.

I rode all seven test bikes in methodical manner. I pedalled them unpowered for the first mile. Almost all felt like a conventional bike. I accelerated them from a dead stop to 27mph. They all responded to pedal input like normal bikes. The strange sensation was how some of the bikes resisted my pedaling with power assist above 20mph. Some just did not budge over 20, when the same bike responded just fine with the power turned off!

That is how it is designed to be. By law, the motor will provide assistance up to 20 mph and then the motor stops (speed limited by a governor). Other ebikes provides 250 watts regardless if the speed is above 20 mph, however, with such a meager power, the highest speed on level ground is about 20 mph (speed limited by terminal velocity from wind resistance and mechanical friction). If you are a very strong rider and goes beyond 20 mph, the motor is still there to assist you.

Sometimes race horses and jockeys seem to function like a single unit -- an obvious winner. Other times, you can spot the losing horse because the jockey and horse are not in sync. Both parties want to go in different directions.

If you understand how these ebikes work, you can make it function to your advantage.

The big question is the business model. Is the eRoad solution about addressing needs or making the fastest buck possible?

If there is a demand, there is a supply.

 

[Ken M]

I agree wholeheartedly. I sold my car because i get around Denver so quickly and easily on my conventional bikes.

Denver has studied the situation carefully. I ride to my mother's place every other day. I explain the RTD congestion and full parking lot issues in the following link. It seems so incredibly counterproductive. Old habits die hard. It might take a generation or two to correct. Here is a summary of the Denver study:

https://electricbikereview.com/foru...ric-bicycles-and-public-transportation.24565/

To me, the eBike issue is when to provide assist. I only need assist when i stand up to pedal -- for acceleration, rather than speed. I stand up about once per mile, on the 12 mile to my mother's place. Standing up consumes half of my energy and strength. Otherwise, i am perfectly happy to pedal.

My average speed to my mothers place is 18mph through the hills. Constant power would not help raise the average speed very much. I just need short bursts of power to avoid losing momentum. The lighest possible electrical solution is best for me. I also need a different set of sensors to detect when i am accelerating to maintain momentum.

It all boils down to your personal riding style. The machine needs to adapt to your riding style. It feels awkward to change your riding style to accomodate a motor.

Every pedelec manufacturer can only predict what the rider wants via the sensors on the bike and the assist programming. Seems to me the only way to truly provide the assist the rider wants is to have throttle control. I was originally not a throttle believer but I have a Bosch and Yamaha mid-drive Haibikes and there are simply times the assist does seem a bit awkward or not as I would prefer. I also have a direct drive hub motor ebike from PIM and I think it outshines the mid-drive bikes for urban commuting which is what I think eBikes are best utilized for.

 

[larry-new]

Proposing an eroad to a race oriented roadie is like trying to get a goldendoodle into an AKC competition....it's a wonderful, albeit expensive solution, but it ain't happening, because at the end of the day, it's a mutt...

We ebikers remain cheaters to the purists, and of course, we are riding motorised pedalled bicycles. Sorry, but until the sport governing body UCI accepts it...because there's few incentives to acting like a racer unless you are going to race. The market, therefore, is not large.

 

[Trail Cruiser]

To me, the eBike issue is when to provide assist. I only need assist when i stand up to pedal -- for acceleration, rather than speed. I stand up about once per mile, on the 12 mile to my mother's place. Standing up consumes half of my energy and strength. Otherwise, i am perfectly happy to pedal.

My average speed to my mothers place is 18mph through the hills. Constant power would not help raise the average speed very much. I just need short bursts of power to avoid losing momentum. The lighest possible electrical solution is best for me. I also need a different set of sensors to detect when i am accelerating to maintain momentum.

I can relate to you what my ebike can do.

You said you average 18 mph and you would need short burst of assist to get to that speed.

On my Magnum Metro+ (cadence sensing only, no torque sensor), if I dial the assist level to 3 (out of 6). it will maintain at 18 mph with me pedaling at a leisurely 50-75 watts. If the speed is lower than 18 mph, power assist ramps up until I reach 18 mph. The farther is my speed below 18 mph the higher is the power assist. So at near zero speed, all the 6 bars light up at the power meter. At 18 mph, it 's 2 bars. Above 20 mph, no bars.

If you use ebikes with torque sensors, the power will go up in proportion to how much effort you put into the pedal (if you stand on it, you will also get a higher assist) . The actual experience can vary from different companies. You should try ebike brands like Stromer, Specialized, and Haibike to see how their proportional assist works for you.

 

[BikeMike]

Every pedelec manufacturer can only predict what the rider wants via the sensors on the bike and the assist programming. Seems to me the only way to truly provide the assist the rider wants is to have throttle control. I was originally not a throttle believer but I have a Bosch and Yamaha mid-drive Haibikes and there are simply times the assist does seem a bit awkward or not as I would prefer. I also have a direct drive hub motor ebike from PIM and I think it outshines the mid-drive bikes for urban commuting which is what I think eBikes are best utilized for.

"Predict" is the operative term. I do not remember what the exact response was when i stood up to pedal. I clearly remember abruptly sitting down soon afterwards, because i did not get the expected response. I wanted the motor to remember what my momentum had been. My goal was to return to that state by accelerating. It seemed like the motor ignored my request. Perhaps, my speed dropped from 20 to 17?

One torque sensor for each side of the bottom bracket and two or more speed magnets would be more sensitive and responsive to acceleration. More important is detecting seat and handlebar pressure.

When i stand up to pedal, my cadence drops suddenly and the torque dramatically increases. Almost no pressure is exerted on the handlebars while sitting. My sitting cadence is a very consistent 95 RPM. I never measured my standup cadence before my garmin cadence meter broke. My guess is my standup cadence is 60 RPM, let's say a 50% drop. But the torque increase from my weight (210 pounds) must be five or ten times greater, i really so not know. But something dramatically stronger.

When i stand up, i pressure both feet to control the stroke, so i do not spin out. Sitting, i press hard with one foot and pull lightly with the other. A single torque sensor can only average the total force, not detect what my feet are doing. The "predicting" comes from how my feet manipulate the pedals, not the pressure along the entire bottom bracket axle.

My entire body weight shifts from my legs and butt to my upper body. My center of gravity moves over the handlebars. Seat and Handlebars sensors are important to detect the shift in balance. More importantly, i pull on the handlebars to exert more downward force on the pedals. All of this information is ignored by the sensor system.

As i recall, the overall response to standing up felt dull. So, i sat right back down. I expected the assist to start as soon as i dropped my entire body weight into the pedal. If i do this on sand, i expect the rear wheel to immediately lose traction and kick up dust within one half of a revolution.

 

[BikeMike]

"Predict" is the operative term. I do not remember what the exact response was when i stood up to pedal. I clearly remember abruptly sitting down soon afterwards, because i did not get the expected response. I wanted the motor to remember what my momentum had been. My goal was to return to that state by accelerating. It seemed like the motor ignored my request. Perhaps, my speed dropped from 20 to 17?

One torque sensor for each side of the bottom bracket and two or more speed magnets would be more sensitive and responsive to acceleration. More important is detecting seat and handlebar pressure.

When i stand up to pedal, my cadence drops suddenly and the torque dramatically increases. Almost no pressure is exerted on the handlebars while sitting. My sitting cadence is a very consistent 95 RPM. I never measured my standup cadence before my garmin cadence meter broke. My guess is my standup cadence is 60 RPM, let's say a 50% drop. But the torque increase from my weight (210 pounds) must be five or ten times greater, i really so not know. But something dramatically stronger.

When i stand up, i pressure both feet to control the stroke, so i do not spin out. Sitting, i press hard with one foot and pull lightly with the other. A single torque sensor can only average the total force, not detect what my feet are doing. The "predicting" comes from how my feet manipulate the pedals, not the pressure along the entire bottom bracket axle.

My entire body weight shifts from my legs and butt to my upper body. My center of gravity moves over the handlebars. Seat and Handlebars sensors are important to detect the shift in balance. More importantly, i pull on the handlebars to exert more downward force on the pedals. All of this information is ignored by the sensor system.

As i recall, the overall response to standing up felt dull. So, i sat right back down. I expected the assist to start as soon as i dropped my entire body weight into the pedal. If i do this on sand, i expect the rear wheel to immediately lose traction and kick up dust within one half of a revolution.

Now that i think about it, the pedals are even angled like track starting blocks. The pressure from my foot shifts forward of the pedal axle. So, the pressure from each foot is similar. My feet are working in unison, rather than independently, to keep me from falling off the pedals, or spinning out.

The pedalling motion is very simlar to a 100m start. The 100m race is a very apt analogy for how the motor should repsond to acceleration. Acceleration is the key to the start. After a certain point, 40 to 60 meters, the main concern is maintaining that momentum.

The motor response should feel like sprinting, rather than a 800m pace.

 

[Trail Cruiser]

"Predict" is the operative term. I do not remember what the exact response was when i stood up to pedal. I clearly remember abruptly sitting down soon afterwards, because i did not get the expected response. I wanted the motor to remember what my momentum had been. My goal was to return to that state by accelerating. It seemed like the motor ignored my request. Perhaps, my speed dropped from 20 to 17?

One torque sensor for each side of the bottom bracket and two or more speed magnets would be more sensitive and responsive to acceleration. More important is detecting seat and handlebar pressure.

When i stand up to pedal, my cadence drops suddenly and the torque dramatically increases. Almost no pressure is exerted on the handlebars while sitting. My sitting cadence is a very consistent 95 RPM. I never measured my standup cadence before my garmin cadence meter broke. My guess is my standup cadence is 60 RPM, let's say a 50% drop. But the torque increase from my weight (210 pounds) must be five or ten times greater, i really so not know. But something dramatically stronger.

When i stand up, i pressure both feet to control the stroke, so i do not spin out. Sitting, i press hard with one foot and pull lightly with the other. A single torque sensor can only average the total force, not detect what my feet are doing. The "predicting" comes from how my feet manipulate the pedals, not the pressure along the entire bottom bracket axle.

My entire body weight shifts from my legs and butt to my upper body. My center of gravity moves over the handlebars. Seat and Handlebars sensors are important to detect the shift in balance. More importantly, i pull on the handlebars to exert more downward force on the pedals. All of this information is ignored by the sensor system.

As i recall, the overall response to standing up felt dull. So, i sat right back down. I expected the assist to start as soon as i dropped my entire body weight into the pedal. If i do this on sand, i expect the rear wheel to immediately lose traction and kick up dust within one half of a revolution.

Quick question. Have you tried the Haibike with the Bosch CX motor? Have you also tried the Stromer ST2?

 

[BikeMike]

Quick question. Have you tried the Haibike with the Bosch CX motor? Have you also tried the Stromer ST2?

Not the Stromer or any hub powered bikes. I plan to use the bike in winter, when traction is essential. I will list the seven i have tried in a moment. I did not place that much attention to the Bosch models. I see you are driving at the eMTB mode. I certainly never consciously set the bike to eMTB mode.

I tried the Haibike SDuro some number.

 

[BikeMike]

Not the Stromer or any hub powered bikes. I plan to use the bike in winter, when traction is essential. I will list the seven i have tried in a moment. I did not place that much attention to the Bosch models. I see you are driving at the eMTB mode. I certainly never consciously set the bike to eMTB mode.

I tried the Haibike SDuro some number.

have test ridden seven.

• A haibike hardtail with the Shimano motor. I forget the name, SDuro some number.
• The Pedego mountain bike
• The Reise & Mueller Supercharger.
• The swedish ebike, wallenbang?
• Specialized Vado
• Giant FS mountain bike
• A couple of others, that all together totaled about eight hours of riding.

Now i do remember riding the Bosch CX on the R&M Supercharger. I do not recall deliberately setting eMTB mode.

 

[Trail Cruiser]

I saw some dedicated road cyclists loving the Stromer ST2.

 

[BikeMike]

I saw some dedicated road cyclists loving the Stromer ST2.

I believe that a hub motor provides more instantaneous power, like a rear wheel drive racing car.

I plan to use the bike for foul-weather: NW winds 15 to 25mph and/or 25F to 45F temperatures on short Denver daylight hours. The bike paths are often wet from melting snow. Traction is key. I prefer 2.4 inch tires for the snow.

A cyclocross bike to be specific, rather than a traditional road bike.

Other than that, i do agree that a hub motor would feel more responsive and natural.

 

[BikeMike]

I saw some dedicated road cyclists loving the Stromer ST2.

Can you configure a power level to have brief, instantaneous power? I think the problem is the emphasis on speed limits, rather than returning to speed when you started to decelerate or lose momentum.

I guess a Class 2 throttle has an enormous advantage for me. Perhaps, i do not even want power assist levels.

 

[Trail Cruiser]

Can you configure a power level to have brief, instantaneous power? I think the problem is the emphasis on speed limits, rather than returning to speed when you started to decelerate or lose momentum.

If you want brief instantaneous power at will, then you need a throttle over ride.

You can approximate an instantaneous power by momentarily mashing the pedal to fool the torque sensor that you want full assist. That's what I used to do on my 2015 hub driven Izip E3 Dash. However, it also had a throttle. The throttle can provide the exact assist you need. The torque sensor can only approximate, depending on the PAS level and the force you exert to the pedal.

 

[BikeMike]

If you want brief instantaneous power at will, then you need a throttle over ride.

You can approximate an instantaneous power by momentarily mashing the pedal to fool the torque sensor that you want full assist. That's what I used to do on my 2015 hub driven Izip E3 Dash. However, it also had a throttle. The throttle can provide the exact assist you need. The torque sensor can only approximate, depending on the PAS level and the force you exert to the pedal.

I think you nailed it! The sensors introduce a level of indirection. The response will always be approximate.

The question is how accurate can the sensor approximation be in terms of response time and power level.

Thanks, now i am clear on the exact issue!

 

[Trail Cruiser]

Can you configure a power level to have brief, instantaneous power? I think the problem is the emphasis on speed limits, rather than returning to speed when you started to decelerate or lose momentum.

I guess a Class 2 throttle has an enormous advantage for me. Perhaps, i do not even want power assist levels.

In the early 2000's, most ebikes were throttle only (and with heavy and bulky lead acid batteries). I had to add a controller so that I can configure it to make it run at different partial throttle settings, just like the pedelec system, since I was getting tired and numb right hand from operating the throttle. Besides, the pedelec mode extends the range of the battery.

 

[BikeMike]

In the early 2000's, most ebikes were throttle only (and with heavy and bulky lead acid batteries). I had to add a controller so that I can configure it to make it run at different partial throttle settings, just like the pedelec system, since I was getting tired and numb right hand from operating the throttle. Besides, the pedelec mode extends the range of the battery.

Do you think having these CAN bus buttons on the dropper bars would provide decent instantaneous response?

(Link Removed - No Longer Exists)

The BAFANG handlebar controller gives good feedback, is extremely robust and easy to use. The additional output can be individually controlled by five support levels.

(Link Removed - No Longer Exists)