A generalized eBike design Amateur Cyclists can relate to and compare against

[BikeMike]

Given that almost all the major bike manufacturers that make e-bikes have a carbon model, it can't be that tall an order. Of course most of the carbon models are e-mtb's, but that is only because that is where most of the money is going to be made.



So you don't think Trek, Specialized, Giant, Shimano, SRAM, etc. have engineers as qualified as those that work in the automotive industry?

BTW, Yamaha has entered the e-bike market. Their first road bike is nice, but not groundbreaking in any way. It certainly is not lighter than say a Focus Paralane² or Orbea Gain.

Carbon is very complex. I think the issue for bike companies, unlike automotive, is the financial cost. Car companies have the resources to invest in elaborate processes and exotic materials.

Here's a snippet.

https://www.bicycling.com/bikes-gear/a20022549/carbon-fiber-bike-construction/

Pieces of the Puzzle
For engineers, building a carbon frame is like putting together an intricate 3-D jigsaw puzzle. Bikes can have hundreds of pieces, assembled in 40 or more layers. To get it right, designers rely on computer software called Finite Element Analysis (FEA), which helps them determine where they should use each grade of carbon and how best to orient the pieces for the ideal mix of strength, stiffness, and compliance. Without leaving their desks, engineers can go through hundreds of variations an hour until they strike the right balance. A high-performance bike like Specialized's Venge, shown, requires about 400 individual pieces of carbon. Each color represents a different thickness of the carbon tubes.

 

[Nova Haibike]

Do you have an opinion about the Fazua motor?

As designed, the Fazua is only good for assisting with climbing. I'm not sure if the compactness and weight savings is worth the decrease in power and range. I'd really have to ride one to know if I'd like it or not, but I would have a hard time dealing with the 16 mph cut-off of the Fazua (compared to the USA "standard" 20 mph cut-off).

 

[Steve Porter]

I am a former top-end carbon road bike rider who now exclusively rides a Haibike Race S 6.0. I ride several hours every day and always up and down the hills of Marin County north of San Francisco. I have many conversations with road bikers who express similar views to yours and in fact mine before I switched. I invariably find that these folks have never ridden an ebike, much less a fully customizable one. The fact is I now ride the Haibike Race not because I can no longer ride my carbon road bike but because simply put the Haibike is frankly more fun. And my goals in riding are not to arrive at work without having to take a shower (I am retired) but rather to reach my heart rate and power output goals on climbs.

So with that in mind, and I admittedly may have missed it in your rather lengthy emails, but which ebikes have you ridden in developing your ideas?

 

[Nova Haibike]

Carbon is very complex. I think the issue for bike companies, unlike automotive, is the financial cost.

Giant for one has the resources to make their own carbon fiber frames. Unlike most companies that merely buy prepreg carbon sheets, Giant makes their own sheets.

 

[BikeMike]

As designed, the Fazua is only good for assisting with climing. I'm not sure if the compactness and weight savings is worth the decrease in power and range. I'd really have to ride one to know if I'd like it or not, but I would have a hard time dealing with the 16 mph cut-off of the Fazua (compared to the USA "standard" 20 mph cut-off).

That design is actually all goodness for my purposes. I am glad to trade less power for less weight. I think the Bafang M800 acceleration-orientation is even better suited to my purposes. I am just looking for power assistance when i normally stand up to pedal. I stand up about once per mile, at least a dozen times on the 12 mile bikeway to my mother's place.

Do you think putting a gearbox in the bottom bracket to connect to the motor is a benefit or liability? Just more moving parts to facilitate removing the combined battery/motor. The Bafang M800 design seems preferable because everything is internal. And the motor is bolted to the frame.

 

[BikeMike]

I am a former top-end carbon road bike rider who now exclusively rides a Haibike Race S 6.0. I ride several hours every day and always up and down the hills of Marin County north of San Francisco. I have many conversations with road bikers who express similar views to yours and in fact mine before I switched. I invariably find that these folks have never ridden an ebike, much less a fully customizable one. The fact is I now ride the Haibike Race not because I can no longer ride my carbon road bike but because simply put the Haibike is frankly more fun. And my goals in riding are not to arrive at work without having to take a shower (I am retired) but rather to reach my heart rate and power output goals on climbs.

So with that in mind, and I admittedly may have missed it in your rather lengthy emails, but which ebikes have you ridden in developing your ideas?

I have test ridden seven.

• A haibike hardtail with the Shimano motor. I forget the name, SDuro some number.
• The Pedego mountain bike
• The Reise & Mueller Supercharger.
• The swedish ebike, wallenbang?
• Specialized Vado
• Giant FS mountain bike
• A couple of others, that all together totaled about eight hours of riding.

 

[BikeMike]

Giant for one has the resources to make their own carbon fiber frames. Unlike most companies that merely buy prepreg carbon sheets, Giant makes their own sheets.

I test rode the Giant mountain eBike, which was aluminum. My understanding is Giant eBikes are all aluminum. Why? To keep costs down?

 

[BikeMike]

I am a former top-end carbon road bike rider who now exclusively rides a Haibike Race S 6.0. I ride several hours every day and always up and down the hills of Marin County north of San Francisco. I have many conversations with road bikers who express similar views to yours and in fact mine before I switched. I invariably find that these folks have never ridden an ebike, much less a fully customizable one. The fact is I now ride the Haibike Race not because I can no longer ride my carbon road bike but because simply put the Haibike is frankly more fun. And my goals in riding are not to arrive at work without having to take a shower (I am retired) but rather to reach my heart rate and power output goals on climbs.

So with that in mind, and I admittedly may have missed it in your rather lengthy emails, but which ebikes have you ridden in developing your ideas?

I do not care about fitness or race goals. I just ride as fast as I can each day. My goal is a foul weather bike (NW wind 15-25mph, 25 to 45F temperatures, on short Denver daylight hours), when i would rather not ride my conventional carbon bikes.

 

[Nova Haibike]

My understanding is Giant eBikes are all aluminum. Why? To keep costs down?

They probably don't think the current market is large enough to sell an $8-10K carbon e-bike.

 

[BikeMike]

I am a former top-end carbon road bike rider who now exclusively rides a Haibike Race S 6.0. I ride several hours every day and always up and down the hills of Marin County north of San Francisco. I have many conversations with road bikers who express similar views to yours and in fact mine before I switched. I invariably find that these folks have never ridden an ebike, much less a fully customizable one. The fact is I now ride the Haibike Race not because I can no longer ride my carbon road bike but because simply put the Haibike is frankly more fun. And my goals in riding are not to arrive at work without having to take a shower (I am retired) but rather to reach my heart rate and power output goals on climbs.

So with that in mind, and I admittedly may have missed it in your rather lengthy emails, but which ebikes have you ridden in developing your ideas?

I believe your very nice bike is a Class 3 bike, which does not work for me. I ride the bike paths and bikeways in Jefferson County, CO. We are restricted to Class 1 & 2. I avoid the suburban streets, which are too busy.

I would prefer a Class 3, but the Sheriff patrols the bike path behind my place, by driving on it. I have gotten pulled over for riding my conventional Yeti ASRC too fast at night on the dirt bike paths in my neighborhood. He thought i was a motorcycle.

https://www.haibikeusa.com/2018-xduro-race-s-6-0.html

 

[Steve Porter]

Yes it is a Class 3. Given your further comments about what you need I understand why it is a challenge. As you continue your quest I would encourage you to try bikes that have both completely customizable assist levels AND assist-speed profiles for those levels. While not perfect those will help in getting closer to some of the desirable attributes you listed in your original email. The standard assist levels and rather flat assist-speed profiles of most ebikes feel very unnatural to a conventional road cyclist.

 

[BikeMike]

Yes it is a Class 3. Given your further comments about what you need I understand why it is a challenge. As you continue your quest I would encourage you to try bikes that have both completely customizable assist levels AND assist-speed profiles for those levels. While not perfect those will help in getting closer to some of the desirable attributes you listed in your original email. The standard assist levels and rather flat assist-speed profiles of most ebikes feel very unnatural to a conventional road cyclist.

I agree. I think it boils down to giving some users a UI to customize the torque curve parameters to the motor controller. Do you have the Bosch Nyon with the UK app to customize the assist levels? If so, what do you find most effective to reach your goals?

 

[Ken M]

I struggle to understand why traditional cyclists want to somehow "force fit" ebikes into their world. The entire concept of having power assist is to allow any rider to go farther and/or faster (maybe not downhill but in most riding conditions). I don't even understand the huge effort to make ebikes look as traditional as possible (ie seems the industry is almost driven by trying to hide that ebikes are different even in appearance). Pure silly in my opinion.

Obviously there is a lot of appeal for an ebike in mtn. biking as the assist can make a dramatic difference when climbing. You can get the climbs done faster so if you are into downhilling you get more runs in.

Here's where ebikes can transform the planet if you can convince people to get out of their cars every now and then. We need human scale transportation to relieve urban congestion. eBikes may be the best solution for transportation needs from 1 to 20 miles. I'm one of the riders that feels the current restrictions and classifications are hurting the utility of ebikes for commuting. Most decent riders on a road bike can hit and sustain a speed in the 30-35mph range when on flats or slight downhills yet the law makers seem to feel that ebike assist should be cut off at 20mph or 28mph instead of just controlling speed like we do with cars by having speed limits.

An ebike that could sustain a speed of say 25-30mph on say a 12% grade without the rider having to significantly exert themselves would be a very attractive urban transportation solution. On roads why would it be a problem if ebike assist was allowed to go into the 35-40mph range when some riders achieve those speeds without assist. We needs solutions that balance public safety, the environment, and common sense.

 

[BikeMike]

I struggle to understand why traditional cyclists want to somehow "force fit" ebikes into their world. The entire concept of having power assist is to allow any rider to go farther and/or faster (maybe not downhill but in most riding conditions). I don't even understand the huge effort to make ebikes look as traditional as possible (ie seems the industry is almost driven by trying to hide that ebikes are different even in appearance). Pure silly in my opinion.

Obviously there is a lot of appeal for an ebike in mtn. biking as the assist can make a dramatic difference when climbing. You can get the climbs done faster so if you are into downhilling you get more runs in.

Here's where ebikes can transform the planet if you can convince people to get out of their cars every now and then. We need human scale transportation to relieve urban congestion. eBikes may be the best solution for transportation needs from 1 to 20 miles. I'm one of the riders that feels the current restrictions and classifications are hurting the utility of ebikes for commuting. Most decent riders on a road bike can hit and sustain a speed in the 30-35mph range when on flats or slight downhills yet the law makers seem to feel that ebike assist should be cut off at 20mph or 28mph instead of just controlling speed like we do with cars by having speed limits.

An ebike that could sustain a speed of say 25-30mph on say a 12% grade without the rider having to significantly exert themselves would be a very attractive urban transportation solution. On roads why would it be a problem if ebike assist was allowed to go into the 35-40mph range when some riders achieve those speeds without assist. We needs solutions that balance public safety, the environment, and common sense.

I agree wholeheartedly. I sold my car because i get around Denver so quickly and easily on my conventional bikes.

Denver has studied the situation carefully. I ride to my mother's place every other day. I explain the RTD congestion and full parking lot issues in the following link. It seems so incredibly counterproductive. Old habits die hard. It might take a generation or two to correct. Here is a summary of the Denver study:

https://electricbikereview.com/foru...ric-bicycles-and-public-transportation.24565/

To me, the eBike issue is when to provide assist. I only need assist when i stand up to pedal -- for acceleration, rather than speed. I stand up about once per mile, on the 12 mile to my mother's place. Standing up consumes half of my energy and strength. Otherwise, i am perfectly happy to pedal.

My average speed to my mothers place is 18mph through the hills. Constant power would not help raise the average speed very much. I just need short bursts of power to avoid losing momentum. The lighest possible electrical solution is best for me. I also need a different set of sensors to detect when i am accelerating to maintain momentum.

It all boils down to your personal riding style. The machine needs to adapt to your riding style. It feels awkward to change your riding style to accomodate a motor.

 

[Steve Porter]

Yes I have the Nyon which I got from Europe and it has what has made my bike a success for me. I agree with Ken that one cannot really force fit ebikes into the conventional road bike world, but I had to come to this realization because that is initially exactly what I wanted to do. For example I too wanted the lightest weight carbon ebike so I could ride it most of the time without assist. But as you have found out that is to date an impossible thing to find. What I realized is that, depending on the gradient, an assist level of 15-30% "equalizes" my ebike to my carbon road bike, meaning for the same gear (at least in the low hill-climbing gears) it takes roughly the same amount of power for me to climb at the same cadence (the assist compensating for the 30 lbs heavier weight of the ebike as well as its relatively higher gear ratios after the lowest gear). Also, I find assist curves that give the most assist at low speeds and fall off as speed increases give me what I want in climbing steeper gradients and allow me to keep a more constant cadence and power output and decrease the amount of gear shifting necessary as the pitch varies. I can always race up the hill in the conventional assist levels but these in general are much higher than I normally want. I do use them sometimes in returning from a ride when I am going through busy towns and want to keep up with traffic or just take it easy. I do think it all works for me but I had to learn what approach worked best.

 

[BikeMike]

Yes I have the Nyon which I got from Europe and it has what has made my bike a success for me. I agree with Ken that one cannot really force fit ebikes into the conventional road bike world, but I had to come to this realization because that is initially exactly what I wanted to do. For example I too wanted the lightest weight carbon ebike so I could ride it most of the time without assist. But as you have found out that is to date an impossible thing to find. What I realized is that, depending on the gradient, an assist level of 15-30% "equalizes" my ebike to my carbon road bike, meaning for the same gear (at least in the low hill-climbing gears) it takes roughly the same amount of power for me to climb at the same cadence (the assist compensating for the 30 lbs heavier weight of the ebike as well as its relatively higher gear ratios after the lowest gear). Also, I find assist curves that give the most assist at low speeds and fall off as speed increases give me what I want in climbing steeper gradients and allow me to keep a more constant cadence and power output and decrease the amount of gear shifting necessary as the pitch varies. I can always race up the hill in the conventional assist levels but these in general are much higher than I normally want. I do use them sometimes in returning from a ride when I am going through busy towns and want to keep up with traffic or just take it easy. I do think it all works for me but I had to learn what approach worked best.

You seem to be riding like a conventional racer -- build up momentum by accelerating, then maintain that speed. When you lose momentum, accelerate to regain momentum. Right?

I think 0 to 15mph acceleration is a very important skill or eBike feature. Once i reach 15mph, 25mph is much easier to reach.

I think the conventional torque sensor needs to be increased to one sensor for each side of the bottom bracket to increase acceleration sensitivity. I also feel the rear wheel needs a second speed sensor to more accurately measure acceleration. An accelerometer makes even more sense.

The Bafang M800 is designed for these sensors, except an accelerometer. I feel an acceleration-oriented motor controller is worth waiting for. That is what i can really benefit from, because i would not need to stand up to accelerate. Stand up pedaling consumes half of my energy and strength.

 

[Steve Porter]

Yes that is how I try to ride. I have to admit that I have not kept up closely with ongoing developments but would certainly be interested in exploring them should your ideas materialize.

 

[BikeMike]

Given that almost all the major bike manufacturers that make e-bikes have a carbon model, it can't be that tall an order. Of course most of the carbon models are e-mtb's, but that is only because that is where most of the money is going to be made.



So you don't think Trek, Specialized, Giant, Shimano, SRAM, etc. have engineers as qualified as those that work in the automotive industry?

BTW, Yamaha has entered the e-bike market. Their first road bike is nice, but not groundbreaking in any way. It certainly is not lighter than say a Focus Paralane² or Orbea Gain.

Pinarello is the only carbon e-bike maker that explicitly emphasizes T700 carbon fiber. Focus needed to add 30% more carbon fiber (500 layers) in key areas.

https://www.toraycma.com/page.php?id=661

High Strength Carbon Fibers
Toray offers the highest tensile strength and highest strain-to-failure carbon fibers available in the world. With the exception of T1000G, each of the fibers listed below is produced as a never-twisted fiber.

• T700S - The highest strength, standard modulus fiber available, with outstanding processing characteristics for filament winding, weaving and prepregging.
• This never-twisted fiber is used in a variety of industrial and recreational applications, including pressure vessels such as
• natural gas vehicle (NGV) storage tanks and
• SCBA breathing tanks.
• Available in 6K, 12K, and 24K tow sizes.
• Fiber
  Tensile Modulus (msi)
  Tensile Strength (ksi)
  Datasheet
  T700S
  33.4
  711
  View Datasheet​

 

[BikeMike]

Cubes approach to carbon involves nanotechnology for Agree eBike

(Link Removed - No Longer Exists)

Special carbon fibre material choice: An extraordinary combination of materials is needed to make the best quality carbon. By using High Modulus fibres, we’ve made the C:62 frame extremely stiff.

Finely dispersed nanoparticles are integrated in the resin that bonds the two carbon layers.

Thanks to these tiny particles, the durabillity of the frame is improved – and it’s also less sensitive to impacts and better able to withstand external forces.

This combination of nanoresin particles and High Modulus fibres is what makes a C:62 out of a SHPC frame.

 

[BikeMike]

One goal is to decrease weight by increasing the amount of fiber and decreasing the amount of resin.

I know from personal experience how heavy cans of resin are. The fiberglass is extremely light compared to the resin. Working with 500 layers of carbon must be tough. Saturating just a single layer by hand, within the chemical reaction time is not easy.

A big problem is simply sharing databases of information about the materials. A second problem is access to the tools that model fiberglass.

I doubt anything happens very quickly. Developing a carbon frame must be a very expensive, labor and time intensive process.