8+ months of research, 100s of hours, know what I need & want but can't find it

[BurroBabe]

With your medical conditions and wants, you have to decide what you can compromise on. It’s like trying to find an iideal spouse . Will never get all you “want” but hopefully you can find what works well enough.

Suggest you look at the lighter weight gravel or even road biikes that allow very wide tires, and run those at low pressures. Change out for suspension seatposts and
stem/handlebars. And consider lightweight bikes with optional battery extenders.

How about step throughs like the Lemond Dutch? Pricey, but lightweight and a work of art.

Thanks for mentioning another great Dutch bike I've never heard of. Of course, it's beyond my reach but the fact that it doesn't have front suspension is a no go for me. I don't want to give gory details but, I don't just have arthritis in my hands, my wrists are plain destroyed. No cartilage, no bone space, collapsed bones. Soft tires, suspension stem, even a 50mm travel fork is just insufficient. And if a review says a battery is not easy to remove, that means I have no hope of removing it.
But I appreciate your suggestions anyway.

 

[BurroBabe]

@BurroBabe, you are right in thinking the right fit is probably the most important thing to consider. In your case it is probably worth spending the money to get the right size frame.

You asked what else is out there:
The Tern HSD has front suspension. The Tern NBD has a low step (15.4" off the ground), but no suspension. Both have Bosch Performance Line motors which, unfortunately in my experience, are on the whimpy side. For a more powerful Bosch Cargo Line motor you have to step up to the Tern GSD, which has a higher step-thru.

Some of your requirements are contradictory. You say you want to haul stuff but do not want a cargo bike. You want "a bike that I enjoy riding lots of miles and up and down the hills." I can assure you that a cargo bike will not lessen the enjoyment of the rides you describe. If you were riding technical mountain trails, a cargo bike would not be appropriate.

Finally, ebikes are heavy. The ones that are light, such as some Specialized models, do not have the frame geometry you need, nor the range, nor the power.

I realize that some of my requirements may sound contradictory but, please realize, I come from a bicycling background. For many years I have "hauled" panniers loaded with books and music to college classes, groceries, tools, and a trailer with a child with my Trek 520 touring bike on tires so narrow that you don't even see them on any ebikes. And I did this on all kinds of roads, including those dirt washboards. I considered that bike a bit heavy somewhere in the high 20s (pounds) with rear rack and fenders but it was strong enough to haul anything and, with aero bars, I could ride 80 miles round trip in a day. So to me, I don't see a contradiction between having a bike that I can ride 30 miles to visit a friend with just enough luggage for an overnight stay and a contribution to dinner, and using the same bike to go grocery shopping. Another thing I do not understand about cargo bikes is those little 20" wheels. It's fine in the city on pavement, but the trail on small wheels is not going to give any stability on dirt roads with holes, rocks, and the fallen branches and other debris that can catch you even on the paved roads. It puts me in mind of riding motor scooters (I had a vespa, and then a Honda Elite 110 and lastly a Honda Helix 250. It was hell hitting potholes or even rough pavement.
Thanks for the links to the Terns. Nice specs and, if anyone sold them near here, I would try them out but, for that kind of money, I would rather buy a Gazelle.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

I would rather buy a Gazelle.

Try a Specialized A Vado?

 

[BurroBabe]

Hello,
Have you met with a 'certified' bike fitter at a knowledgable bike shop you trust. Someone you're comfortable with
their advice ? You said you didn't want to depend on the motor all the time, 'push the pedals' At 110 lbs fully
clothed' it sounds like you'll need a bike with some serious gearing to compensate for your lack of total mass or some
very powerful legs...I'm not an expert in this area, but this point jumped out at me.

At 8 + months and 100s of hours of research, If you haven't found a bike by now, It doesn't exist or perhaps
you really enjoy the 'hunt' for one ( which is just fine). Getting back to my opening thought. I'd locate a LBS
you trust and respect ( like the shop I use )...

To be fair, if you find a shop, don't make them your research library. With all the prep work you've done,
you should be able go to 'that certain shop', with your narrowed down your priorities, talk with and possibly
have the bike fitter take some measurements and buy / order your bike in one, maybe two maximum visits.

As far as EBR folks offering guidance, you'll get as many different opinions as posters, adding to the confusion.
I have three e-bikes all set up to my comfort and standards. I'm extremely happy with the results...I've ridden
12,000 + miles and every ride is just like the first, 6 years ago. My e-Bikes are Treks so I started from a
solid position. You could hop on my bikes and say no way, any day.

Good luck,
John

John, I applaud you for your suggestion of going to a bike fitter. Bravo, someone who understands the right way to get what fits, as well as a great argument for supporting local bike shops! It is great advice, and it should be given to everyone looking for the right bike.
(Now I will reveal what I didn't want to say upfront, I used to own a bike shop and have "fitted" every bike I have to accommodate my very short inseam, very long torso, shoulder width, and reach.) I can't tell you how many times I have had to explain to the people trying to sell me an ebike that the height range a manufacturer says a bike will fit bears no relation to whether it will fit me! Some of them can't even wrap their head around how, when I change out the crank arms to a shorter length, which I must do on every bike, that I will raise the seat, not lower it! (jeez)
And I did get a ride to a shop 40 mi away that sells Trek, knowing that I could at least get a frame small enough for me. The guy there does Certified bike fitting. He sent me out to try a bike with the seat too low (I stopped on the road to adjust it) and was unwilling to go get an allen wrench to adjust the stem to improve my reach and hand position on the handlebars. Needless to say, it didn't result in a stellar test ride. I had no way of knowing if the extreme pain in my wrist was the fault of the shifters, the bar sweep, the lack of front shock, or just the lousy position.

I hate to have to say this but, I've gotten the feeling more than once that some of these guys look at that "little old lady" coming in to try out an ebike and just don't have any kind of respect or concept that she may have ridden thousands of miles on "real" bikes on roads, in races, on dirt, and is serious about cycling but just needs some assistance.

I'd like to know which Treks you have. I considered the Allant*7 but the shop doesn't carry them and I will not buy a bike I haven't ridden. Besides, it's heavier than the equivalently spec-d gazelles.

And btw, I do still have powerful legs! They're the best looking part of me.

 

[BurroBabe]

Try a Specialized A Vado?

Funny you mention it. I actually bought a Specialized Turbo Vado 4.0 Step-Through Commuter E-Bike - 2021, Small. So-called Step-Through. I absolutely loved the way it rode, after I put on 160mm cranks. But guess what, it's not really a step-through, it has a slanted top tube which pressed up into my crotch and also slanted up sharply to press hard all the way up the front of my pubic bone. All it took was to stop where the ground sloped a little for me not to be able to stand straddling it and to go over sideways. And I had clearly given the "ride guide" my exact inseam measurement before ordering it and was told that it would fit. What, with NO standover height? Sheesh!

 

[BurroBabe]

You are making it hard for yourself.
Stand over height is not a factor.
Nobody spends time standing over.
If you can reach the pedals go riding.

Excuse me, I don't know how you get on and off a bike. I, however, need to come off the seat and place both my feet on the ground when I stop. If there is a metal bar between my legs when I attempt to do so, it is painful. I can't levitate.

"Nobody spends time standing over." I don't know about you; when I come to an intersection or a T on a county or state road where cars are traveling at 55mph or higher, I stop, stand straddling the bike, and watch for oncoming cars before I proceed. Perhaps you balance on the pedals, perhaps you are an acrobat, but I am not. I am a mere mortal trying to avoid being killed.

 

[Bicyclista]

Another thing I do not understand about cargo bikes is those little 20" wheels.

There are many cargo ebikes with larger wheels, including those from Yuba, Xtracycle, and Surly. But then you run into the problem of bikes that are not really step-through, or not small enough for you.

 

[sc00ter]

I like to be able to flat foot sometimes while stopped. I had one of those semi-recumbent style ebikes (E-Lux Malibu GT) and while I could flat foot at a stop I started to really hate the longer wheelbase. Combined with the front shock forks and the suspension post it was horrible over bumps as well, again, because of the length. I might try a button activated dropper post on my next ebike. Drop at a stop and press the button to raise while standing during take-off.

Speaking of semi-bent recumbent bikes, the most comfortable bicycle I ever owned was a Rans Fusion. It did pretty much everything well except climb. I sold it when I moved to PA and still miss that analog bicycle sometimes. Fast, easy on my wrist, never any butt pain. I replaced it with a normal road bike and could do a century before my wrist would start hurting so I never hunted down another Rans. Note I was MUCH younger in those days!

 

[Nvreloader]

Burro Babe
I checked my xl program of step thru fat tire bikes,
and have these suggestions for you check on:
Stand over height = 14" = Velowave Grace ST @ 92 #'s
QuiteKat St = 16" = @ 61#'s

 

[AvalancheRun]

However, the biggest barrier is weight to lift. I will have to lift it sometimes, to get into a shed when not riding, to lock it when out shopping, etc.

It might be best to add a ramp to the shed so the bike can be rolled on in. e-bikes are heavy and awkward to lift in general. Not something you'd want to do in your situation even with a lighter 40-50 lb bike.
Likewise at a bike lockup you can often maneuver the bike without lifting if you plan accordingly (yes it's often faster to just lift).

I really like the 75nm Bosch Performance Line which is a fantastic mix of power, quietness, and efficiency. How steep are the hills around you? I agree with Bicylista that the Tern HSD is likely one of your best options. And it also happens to be one of the best cargo bikes on the market. In contrast to Bicyclista I find this new motor to be quite powerful. My only complaint there is the belt drive (on my bike) lacks low gearing, and on hills the pedaling cadence drops too low. The chain driven bikes will be more efficient, have more gearing, and can be repaired at any shop.

I would look again at the HSD S11, HSD P10, and maybe the Vektron S10. The Vektron apparently supports a shorter rider size.
You could pose this question to Tern support with your measurements. Since the HSD S11 comes with a suspension seatpost that is another question mark as it would increase the seat height a little. You might even want to ask Propel bikes for recommendations. They've been in the e-bike business for over a decade and are based out of NYC.

 

[BurroBabe]

@BurroBabe you can just ignore Rome

Thank you for the advice. It is depressing to be demeaned in a forum when one is only asking for advice.

 

[BurroBabe]

I've read that sour cream is a terrible food because it has no nutrients except saturated fat. I think maybe the microbes benefit my digestive tract, and somehow that increases my comfortable cardiovascular rate. I'm cutting back on the crackers. I think a quarter of a pound a day is too much.

@PedalUma posts a lot here. He makes push bikes into custom e-bikes for an individual's disabilities. I'll bet he'd have good ideas.

Yep, I was raised on sour cream. For the sake of staying lean, I switched to full fat plain yogurt. I make my own for the best taste. I buy local organic grass-fed whole milk, higher fat percentage than regular store milk, and use Yogurmet culture the first time, then just culture from the last batch. If you want it as thick as sour cream, just dump it into a muslin cloth, cinch it closed with string and hang it for the whey to drip until about half the volume, or as thick as you like it. Tastes like fresh sour cream! Yum.

 

[BurroBabe]

It might be best to add a ramp to the shed so the bike can be rolled on in. e-bikes are heavy and awkward to lift in general. Not something you'd want to do in your situation even with a lighter 40-50 lb bike.
Likewise at a bike lockup you can often maneuver the bike without lifting if you plan accordingly (yes it's often faster to just lift).

I really like the 75nm Bosch Performance Line which is a fantastic mix of power, quietness, and efficiency. How steep are the hills around you? I agree with Bicylista that the Tern HSD is likely one of your best options. And it also happens to be one of the best cargo bikes on the market. In contrast to Bicyclista I find this new motor to be quite powerful. My only complaint there is the belt drive (on my bike) lacks low gearing, and on hills the pedaling cadence drops too low. The chain driven bikes will be more efficient, have more gearing, and can be repaired at any shop.

I would look again at the HSD S11, HSD P10, and maybe the Vektron S10. The Vektron apparently supports a shorter rider size.
You could pose this question to Tern support with your measurements. Since the HSD S11 comes with a suspension seatpost that is another question mark as it would increase the seat height a little. You might even want to ask Propel bikes for recommendations. They've been in the e-bike business for over a decade and are based out of NYC.

Congratulations Avalanche, you finally showed me a cargo style bike that comes in at the right weight range with Deore 10sp. I was about to stop looking at the Tern website for good but clicked on your link. Thank you.
However, I just cannot see riding 20" wheels on this terrain, and for distances of 70mi plus round trip. And the lack of a suspension fork kills it too.
Strangely, although many of their bikes give a height range lower than mine, when I look at "distance seat to pedal", the low number is as much as 3+" longer than my inseam. It's just unbelievable to me how bike manufacturers don't use the metric of inseam for sizing.

And about a ramp to the shed. Used to have them, got rid of them. They rot, they sink and settle, they wind up blocking the door from opening when there is snow and they're too heavy to move. I throw rocks in front of the doorways but can't go too high, the snow.

 

[AvalancheRun]

Congratulations Avalanche, you finally showed me a cargo style bike that comes in at the right weight range with Deore 10sp. I was about to stop looking at the Tern website for good but clicked on your link. Thank you.
However, I just cannot see riding 20" wheels on this terrain, and for distances of 70mi plus round trip. And the lack of a suspension fork kills it too.
Strangely, although many of their bikes give a height range lower than mine, when I look at "distance seat to pedal", the low number is as much as 3+" longer than my inseam. It's just unbelievable to me how bike manufacturers don't use the metric of inseam for sizing.

And about a ramp to the shed. Used to have them, got rid of them. They rot, they sink and settle, they wind up blocking the door from opening when there is snow and they're too heavy to move. I throw rocks in front of the doorways but can't go too high, the snow.

I found out that I have short arms, so reach was an issue. Inseam and height didn’t explain it. Had to start looking at geometry and stem sizes to find the right size bikes.

Good luck on the journey, but I really can’t see doing 70 miles a day with regularity on an e-bike. That’s so many hours of seat time. The bikes can do it, but my body needs a break (and I’m in my 30s…)

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Yeah you can ignore me. Posting what is blunt and true for this donkey member attracted more replies.
Including you.
I can't help it this guy is wishy washy.
He doesn't deserve to have an e bike.

And they say marijuana is harmless
Rome, realise that THC has already erased your brains...
We say: "Have drunk? Don't write"
Say to yourself: "Have smoked? Bite your fingers before you type anything".

 

[Stefan Mikes]

goats

A three day old baby goat fed from the bottle with cow milk by a Hungarian shepherd in the Polish province of Mazovia (Yes I know it sounds weird)

 

[BurroBabe]

I found out that I have short arms, so reach was an issue. Inseam and height didn’t explain it. Had to start looking at geometry and stem sizes to find the right size bikes.

Good luck on the journey, but I really can’t see doing 70 miles a day with regularity on an e-bike. That’s so many hours of seat time. The bikes can do it, but my body needs a break (and I’m in my 30s…)

You are absolutely right about the geometry.
As far as time and distance, I won't be doing it very regularly, I just have to be able to do it when I want to get to certain places. Only in your 30's? The secret to being able to work that hard for that long, in a limiting position, just as in wielding a garden fork or shovel all day, is having a practice of something that keeps your body supple. Tai Chi, Quigong, yoga, done right, will prevent, or at least relieve and heal, the stiffness and soreness that results from long rides or physical labor. Quigon, in particular I find, is very healing and approachable. And you can find good teachers online and do it at home!

 

[BurroBabe]

I've liked yogurt in the past and intend to try it again, now that sour cream tastes so good.

My sister and her husband have considered themselves organic farmers about 45 years. Mostly, they like the holier-than-thou pose, but it's also for a tax break. The market for organic food will let them sell just enough to have their land taxed at the farm rate.

A few years ago they asked me to milk their goats for five days while they were away. After the first day, I realized my arms had been exposed to poison ivy. Washing is normally adequate. After the second day, it was worse. I washed again. The fourth day I finally realized why it kept getting worse. Just before leaving, they'd opened a pasture covered with poison ivy. They'd lie on the oozing stems and get their undersides covered with the invisible oil. Skin oil is a barrier, so if you wash, you will be more vulnerable if exposed the next day.

They knew enough about milking goats and poison ivy that it couldn't have been an oversight. It's the kind of trick they find amusing.

By the fifth day, the swelling was so bad that I couldn't close my fingers on a spoon to eat. One neighbor said it was the worst case of poison ivy he'd ever seen. I needed Benadryl but could not drive to a store or make a purchase. Another neighbor said he was driving to a nearby store on an errand. I asked him to get some Benadryl so I could use my hands. He was always asking my help and always acted like a nice guy, but he refused as if it were perfectly respectable. Often, being nice is role playing. My need didn't register because he really didn't care.

Somebody else got the Benadryl. I managed to get two capsules out, pick up a cup, and turn on the tap. The antihistamine made a big difference.

I haven't drunk any goat milk since.

Jeez, that is a horrible story. I am shocked at your sister's mean behavior; of course she knew. I used to raise dairy goats, organically as well, and I have always found goat people to be generous, helpful and kind. But there are always exceptions. I know how you suffered; it's happened to me and even Benadryl didn't help! Your sister, and her goats, are lucky that you were good enough to continue milking despite your suffering. Four days without being milked would have put a big dent in their milk production for the rest of the lactation, or even caused some mastitis, but you were caring enough about how the animals would have suffered, no doubt. Bless you! It's unfortunate that it turned you off of goats milk, I sure miss it. I can't drink cows milk, I have to culture it by making yogurt to digest it.

Hey spokewrench, what part of the country are you in?

 

[BurroBabe]

I like a posture where I lean forward a bit for stability. However, leaning forward puts weight on wrists. I guess that's how I tore something at the base of my left thumb after riding my Radrunner a year; I thought it was a broken bone. I spent nearly $30 on Fat Paw soft grips. They didn't do the trick.

It finally dawned on me to raise the bars. I installed a 4" riser. What an improvement! When you lean forward on the bars, the amount of weight on them depends on the steepness of the angle from your shoulders down to the bars. With a shallower angle, there was less weight to impact my wrists on bumps.

My injury still hurt. I realized that the original bars had my wrists cocked at a bad angle. Everybody's wrists are different, they say. I picked a pair of bars from Amazon. Perfect. There was no suspension, but my wrists now floated over bumps as I leaned forward enough for stability.

Instead of ramps, I like making 2" steps from cement blocks. They come, for example, in 2x8x16, 4x8x16, and 8x8x16. Longitudinal blocks can tie an assembly together. They're heavy enough to stay put. In case of settling, it's easy to fix the bed with a little gravel, sand, or soil.

Great observations on how bar position affects the weight we put on our hands. I was wondering how I could keep a more forward position and still not lean weight on my hands (which is impossible for me). I always used to ride in a very aggressive forward position, in the drops on the road or really stretched out on a mt. bike. Much more power in my legs that way. Thanks for helping me understand better how to get a more forward position without leaning weight on my hands.

That's a great idea about the cement blocks. We use blocks for a lot here, I even replaced my front steps (temporarily was the intent) when they rotted out with stacked cinder blocks. Around here I've only ever seen full 8" height and half height 4" solid blocks. I'll have to look for those other sizes now. Thanks again! With shallower steps I can lay 2 x 8s over them to pull my firewood cart up an easier incline too. I'm getting a little old for pulling the weight up that steep incline!

 

[BurroBabe]

View attachment 175749
A three day old baby goat fed from the bottle with cow milk by a Hungarian shepherd in the Polish province of Mazovia (Yes I know it sounds weird)

Sooooo cute! I really miss having kids!

And that doesn't sound wierd at all to someone who has raised goats. Goat's milk is more valuable (costly) than cows milk, and and there is little left for the goatherd if the kids drink it all. Also, there are also some viral diseases that kids can get from raw mother goat's milk. So either you have to pasteurize the mother's milk or you can feed cow's milk. .