Lowndes
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Who are you arguing with?
2020 Allant 8S - replace Smartphonehub with Nyon 21?
- Thread starter Lowndes
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As someone who likes cobi concept, I am stating some facts and my displeasure on bosch doing nothing to fix cobi, hope that clears it up.
SQUIDwarrior
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I like the smartphone as a eBike computer concept as well. Modern phones have a lot of awesome tech and so many sensors that can provide a great platform to build on: big screens, accelerometers, GPS, fast processors, big batteries, cellular data, etc. Why provide an LCD screen, GPS antenna, and onboard computer when you can just have the end-user provide their phone? Seems like a perfect solution.
Well one thing smartphones don’t have that makes it hard for a company like Bosch (which is not a software company at heart) to provide a good experience is consistency. Phones have different CPUs, RAM, onboard storage, different types of sensors, different screen sizes and resolutions, different tolerances to temperature and vibration, battery life, and different OSes and software APIs. Which means that new features and design choices tend to favor the lowest common denominator for the platforms they will run on. Building a really awesome experience for ALL users in ALL cases when you don’t control the whole ecosystem is hard to get right and requires time and money to develop. Dedicated systems like the Kiox and Nyon do not suffer these problems because Bosch controls the whole stack. They know every sensor, the exact size and resolution of the screen, how much power they have, how much CPU/RAM they can work with, and they control every API and piece of software running on the system. Thus new features can be designed, tested, and vetted with much higher confidence and much lower cost while providing a consistent experience for all users.
But that being said, I think Bosch really screwed up the whole SPH implementation, from the software down to the hardware. None of the challenges I pointed out are impossible, just hard and expensive to do right. I mean not only does the cobi app have many flaws (navigation is disabled when in the fitness screen, compass randomly turns 90 degrees on iPhones) and missing features (no locking feature, no custom ride modes, no screen customization), but the phone mounting clamp is woefully inadequate in keeping your phone safe. It simply doesn’t not work as a product as well as their other offerings, and without a lot of investment in time and money to develop the platform it never will.
We are on the same page that they messed it up.
However I don't think the job is that hard.
Cpu/ ram etc. is not a problem, even a low end smartphone with 1-2gb or ram is more than capable to collect/process and visualize the data from the sensors. I don't know what nyon uses but every smartphone out there is pretty much using an arm based processor. They are not really that different. Functionality of Nyon is very simple. As long as one the data is flowing from the sensors it is all about collecting data and make simple operations over it. While Android is not a real time operating system, reliability should still be fine (even 1000 samples per second for the torque sensor is not that big of a deal). Since this is not my expertise I actually checked it with one of my software engineer friends to be sure.
That being said I can agree that dealing with different versions of Android may require expertise. Since every manufacturer have their own version it may be hard to keep up. Also bluetooth connection can be unreliable. However hiring several experienced android engineers should solve this problem and for a big company this is not a big deal and not that expensive(they actually should already have a team for their other devices). The worst case should have been cobi interface being connected to the smartphone via usb cable and the rest is left to an experienced engineer to iron out.
If Cobi and nyon had the same functionality implemented but nyon being more reliable yeah I may have attributed it to inability of dealing with android. Yet most of the functions are not even implemented in cobi. As an example, why there is no custom ride modes for cobi?
So this is most likely about getting more money from riders.
BlackHand
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Keep in mind, COBI was independently developed as opensource sw in conjunction with reverse engineering the Intuvia connection. I don't see any evidence that Bosch did much with it after purchasing.
My guess is they wanted it off the market and after evaluating what they had bought decided it was best to put resources into their next gen sw instead. Or some of the work/talent from COBI became part of the foundation for the smart bike stuff they just introduced. Who knows...
My biggest issue is the overly complicated but brittle phone mount - how did that ever get approved for sale when it can't perform to the level of a $15 mount from Amazon?
COBI is what it is, pretty functional but not very flexible and with a lot of niggling UI issues and quirks that seem to drive some people crazy. Basically proof of concept sw that needed (but never got) several iterations to become truly good sw.
My guess is they wanted it off the market and after evaluating what they had bought decided it was best to put resources into their next gen sw instead. Or some of the work/talent from COBI became part of the foundation for the smart bike stuff they just introduced. Who knows...
My biggest issue is the overly complicated but brittle phone mount - how did that ever get approved for sale when it can't perform to the level of a $15 mount from Amazon?
COBI is what it is, pretty functional but not very flexible and with a lot of niggling UI issues and quirks that seem to drive some people crazy. Basically proof of concept sw that needed (but never got) several iterations to become truly good sw.
SQUIDwarrior
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We may never know exactly why the Cobi app never lived up to it’s potential. But I’ve been in the software business long enough to know that it is almost always due to compromises and decisions made around which product lines get the funding and support. This is even more of a problem when you take a system (like cobi.bike) that is acquired from another company or open source system, and integrate it into your own ecosystem. That is often hard, tedious work and generally while that happens you do 0 feature work (because new features = new bugs) and just try to get s*it working. Meanwhile other teams can just keep developing new features and fixing existing bugs. So the migrated system usually falls behind, and by then time you launch it to hit whatever arbitrary deadline was set by management, you almost always have fewer features and more bugs than you like.
Software development (indeed most complex projects) generally have limitations on quality, time, and cost and getting a project done while hitting all three is VERY hard, even for the best companies in the world: “Good, fast, cheap. Choose two.” In most large companies (especially more old-school ones like Bosch) “fast” and “cheap” are always the things that picked.
My guess is this isn’t some evil plot to extort money from users by creating a purposefully bad product. It’s just a product line that likely ran out of time or out of budget, got shipped with incomplete features, and ended up not selling very well. So it likely didn’t get much extra funding or resources for further development of features, which probably depressed sales further. Meanwhile the other product lines sales obviously continued to do well, and at some point the decision was made to put the SPH out to pasture and focus on the products that are actually making money.
Software development (indeed most complex projects) generally have limitations on quality, time, and cost and getting a project done while hitting all three is VERY hard, even for the best companies in the world: “Good, fast, cheap. Choose two.” In most large companies (especially more old-school ones like Bosch) “fast” and “cheap” are always the things that picked.
My guess is this isn’t some evil plot to extort money from users by creating a purposefully bad product. It’s just a product line that likely ran out of time or out of budget, got shipped with incomplete features, and ended up not selling very well. So it likely didn’t get much extra funding or resources for further development of features, which probably depressed sales further. Meanwhile the other product lines sales obviously continued to do well, and at some point the decision was made to put the SPH out to pasture and focus on the products that are actually making money.
What is said about software business may be right.
However in terms of business I think the point is missed. It is not deliberately making a bad product, it is about leaving a product unfinished to make more money from another one.
Bosch first acquires a competing product. Right now it has two competing products that does the same job. If Cobi worked properly nobody would have purchased nyon. They have a closed ecosystem hence they pushed the product that will bring them the most profit. A limited device like nyon which has a physical connection to ebike's motor and battery is not worth anywhere close to what they are charging for it.
However in terms of business I think the point is missed. It is not deliberately making a bad product, it is about leaving a product unfinished to make more money from another one.
Bosch first acquires a competing product. Right now it has two competing products that does the same job. If Cobi worked properly nobody would have purchased nyon. They have a closed ecosystem hence they pushed the product that will bring them the most profit. A limited device like nyon which has a physical connection to ebike's motor and battery is not worth anywhere close to what they are charging for it.
Maybe the issue isn' all Bosch. What about the companies like Trek that sell $4000+ USD bikes with a cheap, inferior rider interface, the smartphone hub? (which probably costs less to mfgr than even the Kiox?)
It is interesting though, that so much of the work to improve cobi.bike is already done - figuring out what to display when and how. That's already done, for Nyon. What's left is the coding and testing. Not the hardest tasks in the world. But Bosch won't invest even that amount of effort. And the bike manufacturers don't care.
It is interesting though, that so much of the work to improve cobi.bike is already done - figuring out what to display when and how. That's already done, for Nyon. What's left is the coding and testing. Not the hardest tasks in the world. But Bosch won't invest even that amount of effort. And the bike manufacturers don't care.
Twinmom
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- USA
I am interested in swapping my smart phone hub for a Nyon. I also have an Allant 8S. What parts did you need? Also were you able to do it yourself easily or did you have the bike dealer/shop do the install?
Thank you!
SQUIDwarrior
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You need the Nyon unit, the mounting plate, the handlebar mount, the mount clamps (order two because they don’t come as a pair), and depending on your handlebars, the shims. You’ll also need screws, some M6s and M8s I believe. You can get sets with tons of screws on Amazon. I was able to do it all myself. Took about an hour to take the SPH off, and install the Nyon.
BlackHand
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- Western WA
It looks like the retrofit kit is available again. It has everything you need and is cheaper than buying all the pieces separately.
About ready to give up on cobi.bike. The latest software upgrade killed the uploading of power and pulse rate to Strava, and Bosch tech support just says "reinstall the app".
Upgrade kits seem to be readily available right now. Is there any difference among displays from last year to this year? I see references to Nyon '21 for example. Is this different from a Nyon from 2020?
Thanks
Upgrade kits seem to be readily available right now. Is there any difference among displays from last year to this year? I see references to Nyon '21 for example. Is this different from a Nyon from 2020?
Thanks
fooferdoggie
Well-Known Member
there. are only two nylons. the first one they no longer make and the 2021 one thats the only one you can buy. you can do it yourself. you jsut replace the mount and the remote and your good to go. you don't have to run new wires.
Thanks. Just ordered the kit.
Hi, (First Post)
I have a Trek 9.9 Allant, My Phone hub had a problem, When Charging the main battery-the hub charged intermittently at times. When on long rides connected by bluetooth to iPhone the hub would die. This rendered the bikes e-system inoperative. Even trying the Manuel battery start would not start system with dead hub battery.
Add insult to injury the LBS wasn't very versed on eBike. I was told the hub didn't have a battery. I called Bosch, got a case# & they informed the LBS to charge the hub thru the usb connector & sent me on my way. Not very inspiring. This is spelled out in Manuels if bike is ridden infrequently, not the case here.
I went right away & upgraded to the Nyon & have NO Regrets! Much better unit. More options, bells & whistles. Really do not understand why Trek wouldn't use this controller on the higher end bike. Plus I have screens showing Hub, Main Battery & Phone battery charge/charging states.
My wife's bike also has the phone hub COBI system, is ridden much more infrequent & it never has hub problems!
Another issue with the 9.9 Allant is the Derailer protector. it appears on some units the tolerance is too close to the derailer & will cause 12th gear engagement at times to be intermittent. We removed mine & shifting is flawless. They passed this info to Trek. ( Trying to learn this site, If someone has a link to a Allant discussion I would appreciate it!)
My first eBike was around 1997, a Lee Iacocca Global electric bike.- Is there a discussion?
Intense Tazer Pro- is there a discussion?
Wife's bike, Townie 9D- ??
Sorry to be such a noob!
I have a Trek 9.9 Allant, My Phone hub had a problem, When Charging the main battery-the hub charged intermittently at times. When on long rides connected by bluetooth to iPhone the hub would die. This rendered the bikes e-system inoperative. Even trying the Manuel battery start would not start system with dead hub battery.
Add insult to injury the LBS wasn't very versed on eBike. I was told the hub didn't have a battery. I called Bosch, got a case# & they informed the LBS to charge the hub thru the usb connector & sent me on my way. Not very inspiring. This is spelled out in Manuels if bike is ridden infrequently, not the case here.
I went right away & upgraded to the Nyon & have NO Regrets! Much better unit. More options, bells & whistles. Really do not understand why Trek wouldn't use this controller on the higher end bike. Plus I have screens showing Hub, Main Battery & Phone battery charge/charging states.
My wife's bike also has the phone hub COBI system, is ridden much more infrequent & it never has hub problems!
Another issue with the 9.9 Allant is the Derailer protector. it appears on some units the tolerance is too close to the derailer & will cause 12th gear engagement at times to be intermittent. We removed mine & shifting is flawless. They passed this info to Trek. ( Trying to learn this site, If someone has a link to a Allant discussion I would appreciate it!)
My first eBike was around 1997, a Lee Iacocca Global electric bike.- Is there a discussion?
Intense Tazer Pro- is there a discussion?
Wife's bike, Townie 9D- ??
Sorry to be such a noob!
I'm sure the reason is cost - Bosch probably has tons of aging inventory of smartphone hubs that they sell to OEMs cheaply.
Thanks for the note. My Nyon kit has shipped. I look forward to getting a more useful device, and freeing up some space on my handlebar...
Alaskan
Well-Known Member
On my Allant 9.9S, I upgraded to a Sram AXS wireless derailleur. In the top gears, it was too wide to fit inside the derailleur protector. To extend it outboard to the right right the needed 1/2", I cut a small square piece of 3/16 aluminum and drilled four holes and painted it matt black. That derailleur guard was too nice not to use.
The guard originally was bolted into the bottom of the chain stay. This simple extension piece was a quick and easy solution.
I agree, It's a nice piece. Just didn't work properly on the XT hanger.
Truly amazes me that a company that lays up such nice carbon frames didn't get the clearance right.
It is the Only bike I ever had that came with one. None of my Mountian bikes have had them.
Nice shifter btw, I might one day dress her up with Carbon wheels, Hubs & a bluetooth shifter.
Does one shifter battery work for you or do you carry more than 1?
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