Eddie, Great reviews and we love the pics. It gives a feel as if we were there! Good job. My thoughts on the Panasonic System and Eddies reviews:
  1. I am surprised he rated the quality of the KTM much better than the Haibike. Haibike is THE off road brand for Currie and suppose to be the most rugged.
  2. I am surprised the hub was grippier than the mid drive... asked previous, no real explaination . More weight in rear?
  3. The 48V, 8.8ahr, 412Whr system shines. 48V means more peak power. It gets noticed. The 412whr is likely more than the Haibike, a typical 36x10=360whr? That capacitance shows with less droop and longer response and range.
  4. This is a light trail topology with Suntour forks, and some disk brakes. Adding a 48V system with a geared hub may be THE BEST conventional set up for light off road riding.
  5. I have a 36vx11.6ahr= 417whr ddhub system that I will be adding to a Trek 8.5DS. Very similiar to the KTM. The ddhub is a higher speed hub and better for commuting than the Panasonic. However, the geared hub speced at 2.7kg vs 4.5kg for the ddhub. This makes a huge difference in feel when off road. Likewise, the torque of 40\25\15 for Panasonic is the same at my Falco dd 500W hub. both have 250W nominal power. The panasonic has a peak power of 500W. the dd Falco is 1000-1200 depending on the program. The dd needs more current to get going and it's efficiency and range will be less on the hills and off road. One allows for a cassette, the other is a freewheel. Besides long term reliability, the only adbantage of the ddhub over this geared hub is the higher speed performance.
  6. I would love to see a review of this KTM system vs a BH system with similiar design.
I can definitely confirm, that compared to my Haibike, the KTM is in a different league in respect of both build quality and finish. I can't answer for other bikes in the range, other than on a like for like basis, Haibike are way overpriced in the UK. It must be remembered also though, that neither of the bikes were designed for the use that I have given them over the last couple of weeks, and both bikes still left me with a smile.

I'd loved to have run comparisons with the BH, but sadly it wasn't to be, and in truth might have been difficult to implement, given just how non standard that my BH is now, and I'm sure that at about 3kg less in weight things might have been difficult to gauge accuretly. 26" V 28" and my Pannaracer tyres might also have complicated it.

I took the Haibike out again a couple of days ago, along the same routes as before, and got to say that the ride was brilliant. I even found myself on a couple of occasions thinking that I'll knock it out of sport mode, only to discover that I was already in tour. For whatever reason, the KTM was apparently putting it's power down off road in a more effective way when we tried things out, and both motor designs have their plus and minus points, but this is the bike and motor that is currently at the top of my wish list. :)

:)This website does a good job disecting the several motor systems out there. It is a cool site.


I was surprise to read that a few mid drive motors are now using a direct drive motor. I am a bit perplexed, because a dd would have to spin at pedal cadence, and seem slow>> bigger motor design. Typically, mid drives spin at high rpms, get good torque, and then step down with gears. Anyoneknow how these ddMiddies work?

That is a nice full-s KTM. Top quality parts. You could go hard with that. We expect a cool video cam shot when you do!
Thanks Bike_On, I'll have to check your link out tomorrow, but I'm always up for a bit of reading.

Just quickly though... This comment below that was copied from another forum gives quite a lot to think about, and could go some way to explain why the mid drive span up more. I think that my understanding of things hasn't really been correct.

"Crank motors are the same as hub-motors in that the slower they turn, the more torque they can make, which means that you can get more help by pedalling slowly."

If I'm correct (probably not) then clearly the torque from the mid drive, was what was making it spin out more. If the hub motor is spinning faster when pulling away, the torque will be lower, meaning that there is less potential for it to spin up. So in effect, this would mean that the mid drive should probably have the edge on the road, where traction is less likely to be lost. If only I could get the chance to test all of this out.

I was back out again this evening on the Haibike, and have to admit that mid drives are pretty satisfying to use. :) I think that the issue is, that because they are different, you need to accordingly change your own mind-set, and then suddenly they make a lot of sense.
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I think that the issue is, that because they are different, you need to accordingly change your own mind-set, and then suddenly they make a lot of sense.
I've been spending a lot of time with the Haibikes recently and am just so impressed with how far they can go on a charge! When comparing the FS 27.5" with my older Neo Jumper the battery just seems to go forever. I have a hard time even dropping one bar without going off road and riding 10+ miles. That kind of riding would take me down to half on the Easy Motion... I do miss the throttle a little bit but am getting used to pedaling non stop... probably get a better workout. Also, since it tops out at 20mph the Haibike feels a bit slower on road than the Neo does. If you work with the gears the mid-drive can get up just about anything... and I mean anything! I've climbed some very steep dirt paths where the back wheel was spinning out with each pedal stroke and I actually sort of wheelied my way up to maintain traction... but I made it. The motor makes it feel light and nimble even though the bike weighs 50lbs.
As you say, the Bosch system is certainly an efficient one, and like you, I was amazed by the range and I still am.

I think that if you are at fitness level whereby you can still competently cycle normally, then the mid drive is a very satisfying system, as you feel that you are still getting a work out, and can make things as easy or difficult for your self as you like.

If it came down to deciding between hub or the Bosch mid drive, I don't think that I'd like to, or even could decide, as they are just so different. :)