How to change turbo mode to be as smooth as ECO

[jsp45]

Hi,

I have just bought a Gazelle Ultimate C5. It has the performance line system and bosch smart system. I have an Intuvia 100 computer, remote control and the flow app.

Ultimate C5 HMB | Gazelle

Whether you're on a weekend recreational trip, your daily commute to work or simply riding into the city centre, the Ultimate C5 HMB is prepared for every scenario.

www.gazellebikes.com

I really like cycling in Eco mode, but if I move to any mode with more power, I find that the acceleration is too responsive to the pedalling, so that the bike constantly makes a lot of tiny accelerations and decelerations. The constant little lurches very quickly make me dizzy.

I would like to adjust the controls on turbo mode so that I can use the higher power, but make the acceleration smoother, like in Eco mode.

I wondered if anybody might know how I can do this, or where I could find really specific documentation on how to do it?

I have read this thread "Bosch Smart System Mysteries Explained Once And For Good!" but would appreciate a little more detail.

Thanks!

 

[Stefan Mikes]

@jsp45: I guess you would be good riding one of the intermediate modes such as TOUR or SPORT and reserve TURBO for hard climbs only.

I hear you:

so that the bike constantly makes a lot of tiny accelerations and decelerations.

Please try downshifting and pedalling pretty fast (at the cadence of 70-90 rpm). Try to make your feet movements round. Never "mash" the cranks. The mid-drive system expects you to pedal with the equal force on the pedals, and it loves when you spin the cranks!

 

[stompandgo]

You should be able to adjust the power, torque, acceleration (your issue) and a few other things for each assist mode via the Flow app. Do you have all seven assist modes? If not, your dealer can add them. You can choose to have any four active at any time, and you can control which four through Flow. If all you use is Turbo, just try reducing acceleration in that mode through Flow and see if it helps.

 

[dodgeman]

Stefan is correct, if you keep your cadence a little higher it helps. Your body may also learn how to keep some of the jerkiness out of it too.

 

[BlackHand]

As other have said, you are likely riding at a very low cadence. Sport and Turbo will surge with each pedal stroke at very low cadences and speeds.

Also, if the acceleration is disconcerting you very well may be pausing your pedal stroke to regain composure then starting again. That kind of rhythm: pedal-pedal--pause-pedal will really exacerbate the surges of acceleration.

I suggest practicing a good steady cadence and try to limit alternating between coasting and pedaling. Also stick with Eco and Tour until you are more comfortable/confident on the bike.

As @stompandgo suggested you can limit the acceleration a bit by adjusting the Dynamics setting down for the higher modes in the Flow app.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

May or may not be relevant, but my torque-sensing hub-drive surges only when I find myself in (a) too high an assist level, (b) too low a gear, or (c) both for the total resistance at hand.

Simple, reliable fix (in my case): Reduce assist, upshift, or both.

Whether or not that works for the OP, the assist settings mentioned by @stompandgo would be worth some experimentation.

Retraining yourself to pedal differently might be the best long-term solution, but it's probably not a good plan for short-term relief.

 

[jsp45]

Thank you very much for all these helpful replies.

My dealer suggested the same, but I'm find that even in tour mode, the lurching is too much for my balance.

I wondered if you might know what I need to do to the tour mode in the control app to make it identical to Eco mode? I was thinking that if I can adjust tour so it is the same as eco, then I could gradually adjust it back up and try to get used to the change.

I did try pedalling much faster, but I just find it really weird pedalling like that. I would prefer to pedal like a normal bike. The Bike is also incredibly heavy, so unless I am in tour mode, there's hardly any point in having an electric bike. It would almost have been better just to buy a really good lightweght manual bike with a lot of gears.

I worry that I may have made the wrong decision buying an electric bike, if the only mode I can use it Eco. In many ways I am more comfortable riding the bike with the battery removed, and I wonder if I should have spent my £3000 buying a much better manual bike.

Thanks!

 

[jsp45]

I am also slightly thinking of selling the bike on, because I'm just not sure that I am going to be able to get use to the feeling of the motor driving it.

I spent £3000 on the bike. I wondered - do you think I could spend that kind of money on a really light weight manual bike so that I could have an easier time covering distance?

My problem is that I am looking after my teen son, who is a little delayed in development but much stronger than I am. He can easily cycle 20 miles+ in a week and I just can't keep up with him. I am over 50.

Do you think if I bought a really lightweight £3000 manual bike then it would be easier to keep up?

My normal bike is a ladies trek that I bought 20 years ago. It's a bit creaky and quite heavy. It was a lightweight bike when I bought it but once it had a steel panier frame and two d locks put on, it was quite heavy.

I like very upright sitting postion on a bike and I actually really enjoy riding the gazelle with the battery off. I think it's a really nice bike when the battery is not on it. If it could be like that and much much lighter, I think it would be great.

Thanks!

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

I wondered if you might know what I need to do to the tour mode in the control app to make it identical to Eco mode? I was thinking that if I can adjust tour so it is the same as eco, then I could gradually adjust it back up and try to get used to the change.

Before you give up on the Gazelle, please try upshifting a gear or two to damp out the surging.

If no go, see if your dealer will work with you to tone down the acceleration in Tour and Turbo while still providing the help you need. A guess and check approach with you there to test each trial right away would be ideal.

Failing that, perhaps a Gazelle/Bosch/Flow expert here can give you step-by-step instructions on how to do this yourself. If the Flow app is anything like the Specialized app I'm familiar with, it should be pretty easy.

Good luck.

 

[jsp45]

Thanks, I'll think about that. Everyone else seems to recommend downshifting, but then I end up pedalling at a frantic speed as though I was on a clown bike. It's just feels really odd.

I'm really not enjoying doing tests, because every time I try the bike I end up with my head spinning for days, and it's just not practical.

I've written to the shop to ask about returning it. Annoyingly the 28 day return window expired two days ago. <headslap>

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

Thanks, I'll think about that. Everyone else seems to recommend downshifting, but then I end up pedalling at a frantic speed as though I was on a clown bike. It's just feels really odd.

I'm really not enjoying doing tests, because every time I try the bike I end up with my head spinning for days, and it's just not practical.

I've written to the shop to ask about returning it. Annoyingly the 28 day return window expired two days ago. <headslap>

Further testing, selling — disagreeable work either way, but you'll only lose money on the latter.

 

[jsp45]

Thank for your advice on this.

I just went out and tried really hard to get it right.

I swapped out the modes so I now have eco, tour, sport and turbo.

I turned the acceleration control (I think it's called dynamics) right down to -5 on all but eco. That is the lowest setting.

I turned support up to +3 on all but Eco.

Then I tried riding it, using the manual gears when starting from a standstill instead of relying on the acceleration controls.

I think that actually worked a lot better. With those settings, if I just ride all the time in Turbo mode and use the gears when I start up, then the lurching is completely gone and it feels like a manual bike with really amazing gears.

I got my old manual bike out and tried it and it is so different from the new ebike that I really found it a big adjustment, even though I have been cycling daily for years. It's such a huge difference, I really find it quite strange.

I think the big ebike feels much more stable because it is so heavy, while the manual bike feels as light as paper by comparison. The manual bike needs more work to balance.

However, in spite of the weight, I can still feel that in the light manual bike I have to put all the effort in to pedal it, whereas the ebike just sort of zings along.

When I switch back to the ebike, it is much more stable to balance from side to side, and I don't have to put energy in to propel it just but it's just necessary to get rid of the lurching. I think I have done that now.

After I had ridden both bikes 4 times, I was really dizzy and couldn't ride any more and had to stop. I'm not sure if it is partly an anxiety reaction because the bike is so different and so expensive and all that stuff. My son really hates it, which is really complicating matters. It's really hard to figure out. I suppose I just have to keep trying.

Thank you for your help.

 

[jsp45]

I just found this useful page explaining how the adjustment works. I think I am going to need to figure that all out.

Customise riding modes

Perfectly customised for you and your eBike: You can easily customise the riding modes of your eBike to your needs with …

help.bosch-ebike.com

 

[jsp45]

The meaning of torque and power is very vaguely explained isn't it? I think I am going to need to figure out exactly what they mean by that.

 

[jsp45]

Do you think this might be about right? I asked a family member.

Torque is how hard the motor can push.

Power is how fast the motor draws energy from the battery to drive itself.

In mechanics, we figure out the power by multiplying torque by speed.

So if I put torque and power really high and also acceleration really high, then it will probably make the ride really wild and put me right off it. It would be as if I was riding a very sparky race horse that over-reacts to everything that the rider does.

Conversely if I couldn't get the ride smooth enough by reducing acceleration, then presumably I could calm things down even further by reducing power and torque. However, this would also affect the ride support level I think. If I do that, then it would be more like riding a very ploddy cart horse. Basically nothing I could do would convince the horse to do anything other than plod.

Is that about right?

 

[Stefan Mikes]

@jsp45:

The Bosch Smart System is cryptic, to say the least. That's why I wrote the "Bosch Smart System Mysteries Explained Once And For Good!" even if I have never owned a Bosch E-Bike.

• I'm glad you installed Eco, Tour, Sport and Turbo. These modes are easy to understand.
• I can understand why you reduced Dynamics for all modes but Eco. Why did you increase Support for all higher modes? Isn't the e-bike too powerful for you? Why not to stick to default Support for each higher assist mode?
• Why do you insist on riding in Turbo? This mode is basically reserved for steep climbs.

The things become even more complicated taking in the account your e-bike is restricted at 15.5 mph. As you are in, say, Turbo, the Gazelle approaches 15.5 mph very quickly. After hitting the restrictor, the motor cuts off and your speed decreases. That makes the motor start and you hit 15.5 mph again. That cycle makes you think of " a lot of tiny accelerations and decelerations"!

You should set the assistance modes to the default values. Manipulate the Support the way your Gazelle is at, say, 15 mph max on the flat. I guess your Support is simply too high for you, and going into high assistance modes is just counter productive! What is the typical speed you achieve in ECO on the flat?

 

[jsp45]

Thank you very much for trying to help, but none of what you say is actually what's going on with me.

I am not going above 8mph and when I am going along at that high speed, wtih acceleration turned off, there is no lurching at all. The lurching only happens when I have acceleration turn up to 0.

I turn the support up because I am a pathetic weakling and I want the bike to take the weight so I don't have to pedal hard. When I turn the support up it does that, and that is very helpful. There is no lurching as long as I have acceleration turned down to -5.

I am just cycling on the flat in the road outside my house. The road is completely flat and completely stright and it is only about 60 metres long.

I hope that helps explain it.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

The meaning of torque and power is very vaguely explained isn't it? I think I am going to need to figure out exactly what they mean by that.

In an automotve setting, greater horsepower generally means higher top speed, while greater torque means a shorter time from 0 to 60 mph. Ebikes aren't much different.

Broadly speaking, ebike motor power is largely about the steady top speed you can attain in a given situation — say, on flat ground, up a 5% grade, or in a 15 mph headwind.

Torque is largely about the rate at which speed increases — i.e., how quickly you get off the line, up to a given speed, or up a given hill.

In the lingo of your assist settings, guessing "acceleration" or "dynamics" refers to how quickly motor power or torque ramps up as the power or torque your legs put into the pedals ramps up. If so, a higher setting here would make the motor response feel more abrupt.

If your Gazelle has a mid-drive motor, it probably produces max power at higher cadence — say, 70+ rpm — and max torque at somewhat lower cadence. You use the gears to keep your cadence in the power or torque band as needed.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

I am not going above 8mph and when I am going along at that high speed,

8 mph being a high speed? A typing mistake? It is very slow as for an e-bike, and using Turbo at such a low speed seems a nonsense for me...
A typical e-bike speed in Europe including the UK is 13-15 mph.

If your Gazelle has a mid-drive motor,

It is the most classical mid-drive motor you can get

I am just cycling on the flat in the road outside my house. The road is completely flat and completely stright and it is only about 60 metres long.

That explains it all. E-bike will show its properties on a normal ride, not on a short stretch of an alley. Please try the default settings on a normal ride, and never exceed the TOUR

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

Do you think this might be about right? I asked a family member.

Torque is how hard the motor can push.

Power is how fast the motor draws energy from the battery to drive itself.

In mechanics, we figure out the power by multiplying torque by speed.

So if I put torque and power really high and also acceleration really high, then it will probably make the ride really wild and put me right off it. It would be as if I was riding a very sparky race horse that over-reacts to everything that the rider does.

Conversely if I couldn't get the ride smooth enough by reducing acceleration, then presumably I could calm things down even further by reducing power and torque. However, this would also affect the ride support level I think. If I do that, then it would be more like riding a very ploddy cart horse. Basically nothing I could do would convince the horse to do anything other than plod.

Is that about right?

Can't address every detail of that, but overall, it's a useful working theory of the situation. Just keep in mind that in ebikes as in life, everything's a trade-off. It'll take time in the saddle to get all your settings dialed in to your particular needs.