Pure torque control. Cadence and others if included leads to unnatural ride.
- Thread starter Neto
- Start date
fooferdoggie
Well-Known Member
if you have a bosch or specialized or such they use a lot of sensors including cadence. without all those its never as smooth.
Gionnirocket
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- Y. O.
Same with Bafang OEM mid drives but not the DIY motors.
Don't over think what's already been figured out.
Last edited:
Jeremy McCreary
Bought it anyway
- Region
- USA
- City
- Carlsbad, CA
The title of this thread is completely false in the case of my Specialized Vado SL mid-drive. Specialized's highly sophisticated "Turbo" PAS relies primarily on built-in rider power, cadence, and wheel speed sensors. And once you have rider power and cadence, you also have rider torque.
Since instantaneous rider power is the dominant control variable, I think of the Turbo PAS as power-sensing. I can't imagine a more natural-feeling power delivery.
My torque-sensing hub-drive lacks some of the SL's finesse on this front, but it still does a good job of doling out motor power in response to pedal force. It necessarily detects crank rotation for safety reasons but has no way to measure or calculate crank RPM or rider power. Result: A quite natural-feeling power delivery from torque and wheel speed sensors alone.
Bottom line: You can get very good results from a purely torque-sensing PAS, but better ways do exist.
Since instantaneous rider power is the dominant control variable, I think of the Turbo PAS as power-sensing. I can't imagine a more natural-feeling power delivery.
My torque-sensing hub-drive lacks some of the SL's finesse on this front, but it still does a good job of doling out motor power in response to pedal force. It necessarily detects crank rotation for safety reasons but has no way to measure or calculate crank RPM or rider power. Result: A quite natural-feeling power delivery from torque and wheel speed sensors alone.
Bottom line: You can get very good results from a purely torque-sensing PAS, but better ways do exist.
Last edited:
fooferdoggie
Well-Known Member
having a motor is artificial. torque sensing is artificial. adding them together makes the bike feel great. bosch and specialized and such make great feeling bikes some of the best and they don't just use torque sensing.
Jeremy McCreary
Bought it anyway
- Region
- USA
- City
- Carlsbad, CA
And how do you know all this with such certainty?
Gionnirocket
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- Y. O.
Thanks for the amazing insight!
I opened my motor controller and cut every sensor wire except that from the torque sensor... and you know you were right! It feels so natural now!
Only downside is that the motor doesn't run now
spokewrench
Active Member
- Region
- USA
I found torque sensing unnatural. At its lowest level, it provided more boost than I wanted. I find a half twist throttle more natural. A little boost is like riding up a grade that isn't as steep or into a headwind that isn't as fast.
Gionnirocket
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- Y. O.
No... What you need is a torque and cadence sensor that are end user tune'able like that of the UART Bafang Ultra. Then you can make it do what ever your "natural" preference is.
I believe some of the Bosch motors allow the end user to do some tweaking...
I believe some of the Bosch motors allow the end user to do some tweaking...
Neto
New Member
- Region
- Canada
I wrote this Pure Torque Sensor title hoping to get some information from the designers, programmers or technician who works on ebike controllers. Give us some details how cadence and other sensors can improve the ride. Why can't they fix the lagging power delivery during start?
Tom@WashDC
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- Loudoun County, VA.
You wanna be more specific with a motor model and controller? I have a mid drive w/torque sensing and I don't experinece any "lagging power during start"
fooferdoggie
Well-Known Member
No lagging power delivery on the start on my motor. It even from start to finish. if the system is not setup for it you may not be able to do anything about it.
harryS
Well-Known Member
Good luck on that, like they scour these forums for advice and insight.
Jeremy McCreary
Bought it anyway
- Region
- USA
- City
- Carlsbad, CA
Really? Sounds like you already have it all figured out.
We've given you examples of some real ebikes that actually do that. And I gave a broad outline of how Specialized uses not just torque but rider power (the product of cadence and torque) in its mid-drive PAS. Details here.
They fixed it to my satisfaction in my Specialized Vado SL. How many different ebikes have you actually ridden?
Stefan Mikes
Gravel e-biker
- Region
- Europe
- City
- Mazovia, PL
My own words, exactly. Mid-drive motors from good brands (Specialized/Brose/Mahle, Bosch, Yamaha, Fazua, TQ, Shimano...) use not only the combination of torque and cadence to determine the rider's leg power and then assistance but also utilise four to five sensors to provide the most natural riding experience.
People who say they prefer torque to PAS seem to have never ridden a good e-bike.
Jeremy McCreary
Bought it anyway
- Region
- USA
- City
- Carlsbad, CA
Agree that power delivery becomes more natural-feeling as you go from simple on-off cadence-sensing assist to a torque-sensing and then a power-sensing PAS (pedal assist system). But so does cost, and cost matters.
In my experience, torque-sensing is a huge step up from cadence-sensing in this regard and a more than adequate PAS solution for people unable or unwilling to pay for a power-sensing ebike.
Now for a plea to the EBR community: Let's get past the common practice of equating PAS with cadence-sensing assist.
A power- or torque-sensing assist scheme is also a PAS. We spend a lot of time discussing pedal assist here, and to do it clearly, we really need to keep PAS the overarching term that it logically is.
Last edited:
Gionnirocket
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- Y. O.
The lag being complained about is being discussed in a vacuum... What bike / motor are you talking about?
My experience tells me that lag has nothing to do with the type of sensors... It's the programming. Period.
My experience tells me that lag has nothing to do with the type of sensors... It's the programming. Period.
Neto
New Member
- Region
- Canada
My 1st ebike is a cheap cadence sensing PAS which I didn't like. Now I have a 64lbs bike with hub motor, bb torque sensor and brake cutoff. that gives me instantaneous power assist during start. Late last year I tried looking for a lighter ebike. I test ride Velotric T1 plus, Aventons. Marin(shimano), Cube(bosch), Specialized(brose) and Yamaha. None of them give instantaneous power assist. The pedal have to turn few degrees before you feel the boost.
I'm still looking for a bike that runs like my 64lbs bike but lighter.
I'm still looking for a bike that runs like my 64lbs bike but lighter.
fooferdoggie
Well-Known Member
I hsve nrver felt that. if I rest my foot on my petal a bit to hard the ike will jump forward. worse when I was ruolling the bike in my shop and the pedal hit something it would jerk forward. there is no delay at all. even on my bosch powered tandem.
Similar threads
