Light vs regular full suspension ebikes

[Stefan Mikes]

It can be changed if the bike manufacturer allows it.

Bosch will not allow the OEM doing that. You own a Euro L1e-B with a Bosch Speed motor, and can clearly see it is a way more than your usual Class 3 e-bike.

I wonder if @wildtrak is still with us, he's a Bosch E-Bike expert.

 

[Johnny]

The speed restriction is hardcoded.

That doesn’t make sense. If the speed limit were truly “hard-coded” at the factory, Bosch couldn’t ship the same motor hardware for different regions or update cutoff behavior via firmware. Speed limiting is implemented in firmware and parameters, just like assist power. It’s locked by policy and security, not by a technical or hardware limitation.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

That doesn’t make sense. If the speed limit were truly “hard-coded” at the factory, Bosch couldn’t ship the same motor hardware for different regions or update cutoff behavior via firmware.

But that's the truth. They don't and will not. A given Bosch motor is specifically made for a specific world's region and cannot be modified in any way locally. For instance, a Speed motor is restricted to 45 km/h (28 mph) and equipped with features required from a European moped: a horn, an automotive lighting with daylight mode always on during the day and automatic low beam (high beam activated by a button), the speedometer always on. Read-only Wheel Circumference figure that cannot be changed! A lit number plate support integrated with the rear rack! Did I forget mentioning a STOP indicator? A Speed e-bike even comes with a moped (L1e-B) type rating certificate and the VIN number! Bosch Speed e-bikes can only be sold in the EU (including Switzerland), the U.K. as well as in the U.S. and NZ but cannot be sold to Canada or Australia!

On the other hand, a specific CX motor is made as Class 1 for the U.S., a 32 km/h (20 mph) one for Canada but it is 25 km/h for the rest of the world.

What you are describing Johnny is the Specialized policy, making it easy to transfer the surplus of e-bikes between different world region. There are some interesting exceptions:

• Almost all Specialized Turbo e-bikes are programmed for 25 km/h for most of the world but can be Class 1 or Class 3 in the U.S (it might not pertain to e-MTBs in America). Regional reprogramming is possible.
• However, Specialized makes the Turbo Vado S, an L1e-B to be only sold in Europe and following the EU moped laws
• Specialized makes the Globe Haul, a throttle cargo bike for the U.S. only but
• Specialized makes the Turbo Porto, a European cargo bike unavailable in North America.

Of course, Specialized is regionally legal but flexible while Bosch E-Bike is not. It was @wildtrak who explained the Bosch policy in detail several years ago.

All this should make you understand how blockheaded Bosch are. (Like, a motor that supports ABS in a certain region but does not in another).

 

[Stefan Mikes]

I’m glad Specialized is more open-minded. I’m not buying this bike for commuting, but I also prefer not tohit a wall at 20mph on roads where I can legally ride it as a Class 3.

Another important remark. Please read it first:

Specialized in the U.S. only allows Class 1 e-bikes.

You said @Johnny

I also prefer not tohit a wall at 20mph on roads where I can legally ride it as a Class 3.

The point is, an e-MTB performs hopelessly on sealed roads and is even slow on gravel. Think of a 32 or 34T chainring (you cannot fit anything bigger on a true e-MTB) and massive knobby tyres as well as the bike geometry. Where an e-MTB really shines is off-road and specifically a technical singletrack. Yes, I owned a (derestricted) FS e-MTB and hated any minute spent on road. I was even unable to match a gravel group while riding the e-MTB while I could easily ride together with them on either a heavy Vado or a lightweight Vado SL!

20 mph is a lot off-road. If you think an e-MTB should be faster than that then you probably don't need an e-MTB... If you could ride an e-MTB assisted faster than 20 mph off-road, your battery would get flat in 1 1/2 hour.

 

[kevinmccune]

The speed restriction is hardcoded.


Bosch is a German bureaucratic corporation. What would you expect from the nation that still works mostly with the paper, where cash is the preferred means of payment, and where the Internet is poor? Bosch thinks German and is German-centric, that's it.


They don't. A primary reason for me not to ever buy a Bosch e-bike.


Still, check whether the e-bike you want applies for the Class 3 upgrade.

my experience with Bosch anything,simply super or also ran, a "marque" can only carry a service or goods so far,there is such a thing as resting on ones laurels( dang those old Romans were penurious no Olympic gold there) you mentioned vados,perhaps "Henry" was unto something,if I meet a "squatch" I want it to be laid back like "Henrys laid back critters,assuming a little toke"

 

[kevinmccune]

But that's the truth. They don't and will not. A given Bosch motor is specifically made for a specific world's region and cannot be modified in any way locally. For instance, a Speed motor is restricted to 45 km/h (28 mph) and equipped with features required from a European moped: a horn, an automotive lighting with daylight mode always on during the day and automatic low beam (high beam activated by a button), the speedometer always on. Read-only Wheel Circumference figure that cannot be changed! A lit number plate support integrated with the rear rack! Did I forget mentioning a STOP indicator? A Speed e-bike even comes with a moped (L1e-B) type rating certificate and the VIN number! Bosch Speed e-bikes can only be sold in the EU (including Switzerland), the U.K. as well as in the U.S. and NZ but cannot be sold to Canada or Australia!

On the other hand, a specific CX motor is made as Class 1 for the U.S., a 32 km/h (20 mph) one for Canada but it is 25 km/h for the rest of the world.

What you are describing Johnny is the Specialized policy, making it easy to transfer the surplus of e-bikes between different world region. There are some interesting exceptions:

• Almost all Specialized Turbo e-bikes are programmed for 25 km/h for most of the world but can be Class 1 or Class 3 in the U.S (it might not pertain to e-MTBs in America). Regional reprogramming is possible.
• However, Specialized makes the Turbo Vado S, an L1e-B to be only sold in Europe and following the EU moped laws
• Specialized makes the Globe Haul, a throttle cargo bike for the U.S. only but
• Specialized makes the Turbo Porto, a European cargo bike unavailable in North America.

Of course, Specialized is regionally legal but flexible while Bosch E-Bike is not. It was @wildtrak who explained the Bosch policy in detail several years ago.

All this should make you understand how blockheaded Bosch are. (Like, a motor that suspports ABS in aroduct certain region but does not in another).

Its hard to beat"city hall" ( found this out with cheap Mopar products) designed to be a dog-always a dog unless time and rectangular dollars are poured into something which would have been better to replace to meet expectations,if not happy get something else,there are "Novas" and "Supernovas" out there.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Kevin, your English has defeated me (that is, I though I knew English) You said your experiences with Bosch were superb. Don't you simply think your expectations were rather low? To stay on topic: Do you own a Bosch e-MTB? What motor? What Class?

 

[stompandgo]

Stefan, you're either using language to make a point, or you are just plain wrong. Bosch makes drive units to meet specifications that they specify, using input from the market and their customers. They design and build a drive unit to meet that market segment and demand. For any particular drive unit, there is one model designation that is used for all markets and bike manufacturers that want it to design into their bikes. It is programmed not only to meet the regulations of the market the BIKE is sold in, but also what the manufacturer wants to offer as options. There are not multiple model designations for every market or manufacturer's configured options. Configuring and/or modifying a drive unit is done collaboratively with the bike manufacturer and Bosch. It takes BOTH entities to implement any feature, upgrade, or change beyond what is available in Flow or in the diagnostics tool. There is a very specific, rigid process to go through to make changes, but changes can be made. When a Bosch drive unit is replaced under warranty or outside of warranty, the same model motor is shipped to the Bosch approved (and in most cases, the bike manufacturer's approved) dealer, and it is configured remotely by Bosch after approval by the bike manufacturer. All serial numbers are checked and tracked.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

You are certainly a Bosch E-Bike technician to know all this, like @wildtrak was, Stomp.

There were also Bosch E-Bike representatives in these Fora well before you joined. They were very specific: in case a 25 km/h Bosch E-bike were imported in the U.S. then NOBODY could change the speed restriction, even Bosch themselves.

Of course, I could be wrong. If you are a Bosch E-Bike technician, please change the CX motor speed restriction from 20 to 28 mph. You can also ask a Bosch E-Bike representative if that's doable.

 

[PedalUma]

@stompandgo,
Here is what I can program. Click the red bar. https://to7motor.com/product/t154-e-bike-centre-control-panel. It is all through the end user's display.

 

[Johnny]

You are certainly a Bosch E-Bike technician to know all this, like @wildtrak was, Stomp.

There were also Bosch E-Bike representatives in these Fora well before you joined. They were very specific: in case a 25 km/h Bosch E-bike were imported in the U.S. then NOBODY could change the speed restriction, even Bosch themselves.

Of course, I could be wrong. If you are a Bosch E-Bike technician, please change the CX motor speed restriction from 20 to 28 mph. You can also ask a Bosch E-Bike representative if that's doable.

While I don’t know the internal details of the Bosch CX firmware, one thing is clear: if Bosch can update firmware to change power characteristics, then changing speed limits or cutoff behavior is also technically possible.

No serious manufacturer would design a motor controller with critical behavior permanently hard-coded and immune to firmware updates. Bosch must retain the ability to fix bugs, adjust features, and respond to regulatory changes. Otherwise, any required change would mean physically modifying or replacing deployed motors, which would be completely impractical at Bosch’s scale.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

changing speed limits

Not. It is a religion for Bosch. No other e-bike motor manufacturer has put in so much attention to prevent the motor derestriction. Yes, many people use SpeedBox. If they do it wrongly, their motor becomes a brick.
I understand Johnny you simply cannot get it but that's Bosch E-Bike.

Bosch must retain the ability to fix bugs, adjust features, and respond to regulatory changes.

What regulatory changes do you predict for the EU for the next 10 years? Bosch is not interested in North America. Everything else can be updated in the Bosch motor but not the speed restriction.

Otherwise, any required change would mean physically modifying or replacing deployed motors, which would be completely impractical at Bosch’s scale.

You know what Bosch would say if they spoke at all? "Go and buy a new e-bike".
People still ride millions of Gen 1, Gen 2, and Gen 3 Bosch E-bike, and the older motors have not got any updates for years.
Bosch is simply too big to be bothered.

 

[Catalyzt]

The point is, an e-MTB performs hopelessly on sealed roads and is even slow on gravel.

No. Climbs will not be fast, and you'll wear through the knobby tires quickly, but my 40nm 47-pound Shimano E500 eMTB rides like a motorcycle on sealed roads. Descending at 43 MPH, it was like it was glued to the road. I've thrown it into a panic stop at over 30 MPH and it tracks wonderfully. It also corners very well, which doesn't even make a lot of sense.

Yeah, it's a grind going uphill, and it's NOT ideal for pavement! It was fine on gravel, though I'm sure a gravel bike would have better performance.

While I don’t know the internal details of the Bosch CX firmware, one thing is clear: if Bosch can update firmware to change power characteristics, then changing speed limits or cutoff behavior is also technically possible.

Yes, but beyond that, I'm surprised the Bosch SX motor is not mentioned in this thread. By changing power characteristics in the Flow app, you actually might be able to limit speed, though you can't tell it: "Hey, limit me to 20 MPH." You can adjust the max power for four modes and probably have the same result, but that's not going to help you if you get stopped for riding on a mixed use trail.

I'll have to look at the settings in Flow when the bike is powered on.

You know what Bosch would say if they spoke at all? "Go and buy a new e-bike".
People still ride millions of Gen 1, Gen 2, and Gen 3 Bosch E-bike, and the older motors have not got any updates for years.
Bosch is simply too big to be bothered.

That is not what they said for the SX. They said, "Hey, here's an update via the Flow App, and your 55nm motor is now a 60nm motor." Which is very cool. That's what it feels like-- a little more grunt, but weirdly, battery usage seems to be the same. Extrapolating from 22-mile rides, I still figure the 36 pound Canyon Grizl On: CF 7 at about 44 miles of range with 4,000 feet of vertical.

Who knows, maybe in 2030 they will stop providing updates. And maybe I won't care because I won't want one.

But that's just me. The computers I bought this year were a new old stock 1999 HP Journada 680 and a 2017 Macbook Retina. I have two cars, a 1991 and a 2016, and I don't play on buying another car ever.

The Journada 680 boots faster than my 2020 Macbook Air wakes up from SLEEPING. The 1991 Honda can outhandle cars that cost an order of magnitude more, and gets better mileage than a Prius with fantastic smog check numbers. So it all depends where we are in the evolution curve. At a certain point, ebike motors may start getting worse like most other technology. I hope not, but that's what I expect to happen.

Stefan, as you know, I do agree with you about Bosch's design philosophy in many or most other ways. They seem very stereotypically teutonic in their approach to order and rules. I do not mean as a negative stereotype. I find the rigidity annoying at times, but also weirdly endearing.

I waited a long time before updating the Bosch SX, read a lot of user reports. It's not that I don't trust them, it's more that I don't trust anyone!

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Descending at 43 MPH, it was like it was glued to the road.

Of course! However, do not expect a high speed on the flat.

By changing power characteristics in the Flow app, you actually might be able to limit speed, though you can't tell it: "Hey, limit me to 20 MPH."

You cannot raise the top speed limit.

Cat, please just confirm: Is your Bosch SX e-bike Class 1? I'm asking because I'm not familiar with this system.

 

[Catalyzt]

Of course! However, do not expect a high speed on the flat.

You cannot raise the top speed limit.

Cat, please just confirm: Is your Bosch SX e-bike Class 1? I'm asking because I'm not familiar with this system.

Class III. Where I ride mixed use, no one seems to care. I also am not going any faster than the class 1 riders.

It would be cool if you could switch it to Class I mode and it had a GPS log, so that if you were pulled over (again, never happens) the ranger could see: Yeah, Class III on the five miles to the trailhead, but Class I on the trail. But I don't think technology or laws allow for that.

As (I think) you or someone else said above, riding over 20 MPH on flat terrain, given how bad these roads are, is basically not possible or far too dangerous for my risk tolerance.

As I said in some other thread, for descents on the eMTB, under ideal circumstances I might go a little faster than 40 MPH. On the gravel bike, a little faster than 35 MPH. The gravel bike has a tighter turning radius and handles better in many situations, it just feels a bit skittish at 38 MPH or so. If the pavement were perfect, and there were no dogs, cats, or children, I'd feel differently.

 

[stompandgo]

You are certainly a Bosch E-Bike technician to know all this, like @wildtrak was, Stomp.

There were also Bosch E-Bike representatives in these Fora well before you joined. They were very specific: in case a 25 km/h Bosch E-bike were imported in the U.S. then NOBODY could change the speed restriction, even Bosch themselves.

Of course, I could be wrong. If you are a Bosch E-Bike technician, please change the CX motor speed restriction from 20 to 28 mph. You can also ask a Bosch E-Bike representative if that's doable.

Bosch will not change the region or class, even if you bought it in Europe and now live in the US.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Bosch will not change the region or class, even if you bought it in Europe and now live in the US.

Bosch cannot change the region or class.
Bosch motors are manufactured in Hungary. When an OEM such as TREK needs, say, 5,000 motors for the region of the U.S., these numbered motors are hardcoded for the region.
Why wouldn't Bosch, OEM, and the dealer agree to change the motor's region if that were technically possible?
Again: can a CX motor be upgraded to Class 3? You say: "Bosch won't change the region or class". Why?

(Firmware, not software).

It is different with Specialized. Say it is a 2.2 motor. Specialized has a regional system built in its dealer software. If a 2.2 motor is to be sold in Europe, the distributor programs the e-bikes for 25 km/h. If that's in the U.S. the same e-bikes are programmed as Class 1 (e-MTB) or Class 3 (commuter e-bikes). It is of course 32 km/h in Canada.

The only situation I'm aware of when Specialized offered an upgrade from Class 1 to Class 3 in the U.S. was the Turbo Tero, which didn't sell as Class 1 in the U.S. because most of riders preferred the SUV use, so the regional settings for the Turbo Studio were updated by the manufacturer. Well, Specialized owns their system while a Bosch OEM doesn't.

I had an interesting situation with my 45 km/h Vado 5.0 several years back. The Wheel Circumference was programmed into the e-bike's software, and that was a very wrong value. As I visited the dealer and he connected my e-bike to Turbo Studio, he made a surprised face and showed me the computer screen. The WhC field was Read-Only for that S-Pedelec! Only the last historical firmware update for that e-bike brought the correct WhC value.

 

[Johnny]

Bosch cannot change the region or class.
Bosch motors are manufactured in Hungary. When an OEM such as TREK needs, say, 5,000 motors for the region of the U.S., these numbered motors are hardcoded for the region.
Why wouldn't Bosch, OEM, and the dealer agree to change the motor's region if that were technically possible?
Again: can a CX motor be upgraded to Class 3? You say: "Bosch won't change the region or class". Why?

View attachment 205486
(Firmware, not software).
View attachment 205487
It is different with Specialized. Say it is a 2.2 motor. Specialized has a regional system built in its dealer software. If a 2.2 motor is to be sold in Europe, the distributor programs the e-bikes for 25 km/h. If that's in the U.S. the same e-bikes are programmed as Class 1 (e-MTB) or Class 3 (commuter e-bikes). It is of course 32 km/h in Canada.

The only situation I'm aware of when Specialized offered an upgrade from Class 1 to Class 3 in the U.S. was the Turbo Tero, which didn't sell as Class 1 in the U.S. because most of riders preferred the SUV use, so the regional settings for the Turbo Studio were updated by the manufacturer. Well, Specialized owns their system while a Bosch OEM doesn't.

I had an interesting situation with my 45 km/h Vado 5.0 several years back. The Wheel Circumference was programmed into the e-bike's software, and that was a very wrong value. As I visited the dealer and he connected my e-bike to Turbo Studio, he made a surprised face and showed me the computer screen. The WhC field was Read-Only for that S-Pedelec! Only the last historical firmware update for that e-bike brought the correct WhC value.

It looks like this came from GPT. It doesn’t say the limit cannot be changed, it says Bosch does not allow dealers or consumers to change it. That’s a policy restriction, not a technical one and that policy is what we’re criticizing here.

Bosch can change the limit themselves via a firmware update. The only way that wouldn’t be possible is if the motor shipped with an unmodifiable ROM with hard-wired logic, which would be absurd for an actively supported product line.

Also, I could easily ride my previous eMTB with knobbies over 20 mph on the road. I’m not expecting this to be a commuter bike, and I’m not chasing speed I just hate slamming into the 20 mph wall.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Whatever I say or whatever wildtrack or the two Bosch representatives on these Fora had ever said won't convince you Johnny so I give up. Whether Bosch cannot or will not change the upper speed limit, the fact is the CX is and will be Class 1. Bosch SX might be Class 3 depending on the e-bike manufacturer's choice.

According to the AI, Canyon Neuron:ONfly equipped with the Bosch SX motor is Class 3 for the U.S., so this is one of a very few lightweight Class 3 FS e-MTBs you could get. (If Neuron:ONfly e-bikes are sold to the U.S. at all). Amflow PL Carbon Pro is another Class 3 FS e-MTB (if it's available in the U.S.)

I've made a little research, and it turned out all other premium brand FS e-MTBs for the U.S. are Class 1, is it the CX or TQ or another motor.

P.S. Specialized keeps all its e-MTBs in the Class 1. The Tero and Tero X are Class 3 but you are not looking for a heavy SUV e-bike.

 

[kevinmccune]

Kevin, your English has defeated me (that is, I though I knew English) You said your experiences with Bosch were superb. Don't you simply think your expectations were rather low? To stay on topic: Do you own a Bosch e-MTB? What motor? What Class?

No sir,Bosch in general,tools,sparkplugs etc. AS the old saying goes" If the Mare runs,the Foal will also",in general if they produce crappy products most of their stuff will be crappy- no own any Bosch products otherwise,they seem to have a pretty good reputation,however compared to newer things coming from Asia Bosch has no advantage in quality over most durable goods,not talking cheap "Chinesium" either.