Turbo Vado 2 4.0 or 5.0 or 6.0?

[mschwett]

All good suggestions! Will see what I can cook up. Some thoughts...

1. You're a tough taskmaster, but pretty sure I could do 3-4 runs like that in one outing at 80-90 rpm.

2. Used the RideWithGPS route planner to scout local climbs I know of that might be suitable. Found none of at least 300 ft gain with anything resembling a steady gradient, but several with somewhat steady stretches of 4-8%. Probably the best I'll do from home.

3. Writing an assist mode as E/M, my SL 1 experience indicates that motor power falls off sharply at E < 30. So probably more meaningful to test E points in the 30-100 range.

3. Probably need to keep rider power under 120W to reduce the chance of saturating.

i think three minutes of data would be enough per run, so if we assume the last run is 120 human watts and 240 motor watts, total weight is 225lb, you actually only need a 150' hill (about 7/10 of a mile at 4%) which you ought to be going around 14mph on! i would bet dollars to donuts that the power ratios would be very close to the flat predictions, ease * 2.

 

[mschwett]

by comparison and for giggles....

this is the hill we live on - behind the tallest building on the left; our views are all in the other direction lol. it doesn't look as steep here as it does in reality. the last two blocks are 27.6% and 25.3%. i've never ridden a two wheeled vehicle of any sort up them. i wonder what it would take?!?! according to bikecalc.... 600w to go 5.2mph on the aethos, at 65rpm. a 70lb full power mid-drive would need 800w to go 5.5mph. so in theory one of those 1kw "bikes" would be able to do it!

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

i think three minutes of data would be enough per run, so if we assume the last run is 120 human watts and 240 motor watts, total weight is 225lb, you actually only need a 150' hill (about 7/10 of a mile at 4%) which you ought to be going around 14mph on! i would bet dollars to donuts that the power ratios would be very close to the flat predictions, ease * 2.

Good, finding a somewhat steady gradient over 150 ft of gain will be a lot easier. The inland topography here is pretty chaotic, and all the hills on the Coast Highway are too short.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

by comparison and for giggles....

this is the hill we live on - behind the tallest building on the left; our views are all in the other direction lol. it doesn't look as steep here as it does in reality. the last two blocks are 27.6% and 25.3%. i've never ridden a two wheeled vehicle of any sort up them. i wonder what it would take?!?! according to bikecalc.... 600w to go 5.2mph on the aethos, at 65rpm. a 70lb full power mid-drive would need 800w to go 5.5mph. so in theory one of those 1kw "bikes" would be able to do it!

Looks very familiar. Once lived on Russian Hill, one street over from the famously switchbacked block of Lombard. No shortage of steep streets from there to your place.

Back then, my two-wheeler was a Suzuki GS1100. Climbed those hills pretty well without my help.

Climbed some 20% grades on the SL 1 after lowering the gearing to 22-99 gear-inches. Don't wanna think about 25-28%.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

3. Writing an assist mode as E/M, my SL 1 experience indicates that motor power falls off sharply at E < 30. So probably more meaningful to test E points in the 30-100 range.

That's true. An electric motor requires a certain power to operate properly. At very low E figures, the SL system uses power switching to provide the requested low power to the motor. It is done by providing an On-Off wave of the electric current to the motor, which is neither good for you nor for the motor. (The SL 1.1 motor requires over 50 W of electrical power to work continuously).

If you set the E below 30%, you can hear the motor whine becomes intermittent as the system turns the motor on and off all the time!

Now, the opposite end: the SL 1.1 motor becomes power hungry above 60/60% assistance, which significantly reduces the range.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

At very low E figures, the SL system uses power switching to provide the requested low power to the motor. It is done by providing an On-Off wave of the electric current to the motor, which is neither good for you nor for the motor. (The SL 1.1 motor requires over 50 W of electrical power to work continuously).

Is that the same control technique as pulse width modulation?

Official Spec graph for the Mahle SL 1.1 motor in the SL 1 and Creo 1. Sorry, don't recall source document.

As you can see, above 60 rpm, SL 1 motor efficiency climbs from roughly 75 to 90%. Spec documents often simplify that trend to a flat 80% — the efficiency at ~70 rpm.

Efficiency falls off rapidly below 60 rpm, and you can definitely feel it on the SL 1. So in hilly terrain, best to gear the SL 1 to keep your cadence above 60 rpm on your harder climbs. Guessing a similar situation on the 33% more powerful SL 2.

Using the 80% nominal efficiency, 50W of electrical power on the SL 1 would deliver about 40W of mechanical motor power Pm. That's about 1/6 of the SL 1's peak Pm of 240W.

So, keeping E >= 30, M >= 20, and cadence >= 60 rpm seems like good advice on the SL 1. Probably not much different on the SL 2.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Is that the same control technique as pulse width modulation?

I'm not an electrical expert. Just judging by the e-bike behaviour at very low assistance and some reasoning.

50W of electrical power on the SL 1 would deliver about 40W of mechanical motor power Pm

I wrote the "50 W" without much thinking because I was doing tests and calculations already several years ago and have forgotten the details. Now, I would rather say it might be some 65-70 W electrical. Why not start the tests from 30/30% assistance?

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

Why not start the tests from 30/30% assistance?

That might well be turn out to be the lowest assist I test, but not done thinking through the whole effort. If I'm going to ride the test runs and analyze the resulting FIT files, I want every test to yield as much key info as possible.

 

[mschwett]

Is that the same control technique as pulse width modulation?

View attachment 205459
Official Spec graph for the Mahle SL 1.1 motor in the SL 1 and Creo 1. Sorry, don't recall source document.

As you can see, above 60 rpm, SL 1 motor efficiency climbs from roughly 75 to 90%. Spec documents often simplify that trend to a flat 80% — the efficiency at ~70 rpm.

Efficiency falls off rapidly below 60 rpm, and you can definitely feel it on the SL 1. So in hilly terrain, best to gear the SL 1 to keep your cadence above 60 rpm on your harder climbs. Guessing a similar situation on the 33% more powerful SL 2.

Using the 80% nominal efficiency, 50W of electrical power on the SL 1 would deliver about 40W of mechanical motor power Pm. That's about 1/6 of the SL 1's peak Pm of 240W.

So, keeping E >= 30, M >= 20, and cadence >= 60 rpm seems like good advice on the SL 1. Probably not much different on the SL 2.

since we can only easily measure electrical power, you can basically disregard efficiency. the only effect of the change in efficiency will be that the test takes a little longer or shorter than it should on paper. not meaningful IMO.

also not sure why you wouldn't have max at 100, as with microtune. i think it's pretty well established that over any steady state the controller won't supply more than the "max" value suggests, which is also simplified by the lack of any "boost" factor. the max is very simply that percentage of +/-300w. hitting that at any point in your test obfuscates the attempt to understand the multipliers involved in "ease" !

agree with cadence 60-90 for sure.

 

[Rás Cnoic]

I think I'm going to screen grab all the graphs and diagrams off here and try and flog them to the Russians as stolen Ukrainian drone tech specs, make a few bob.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

since we can only easily measure electrical power, you can basically disregard efficiency. the only effect of the change in efficiency will be that the test takes a little longer or shorter than it should on paper. not meaningful IMO.

also not sure why you wouldn't have max at 100, as with microtune. i think it's pretty well established that over any steady state the controller won't supply more than the "max" value suggests, which is also simplified by the lack of any "boost" factor. the max is very simply that percentage of +/-300w. hitting that at any point in your test obfuscates the attempt to understand the multipliers involved in "ease" !

agree with cadence 60-90 for sure.

Agree, right now keeping M = 100 in every E/M test assist mode makes the most sense to me, as it eliminates a major confounding factor.

As before, the first thing I wanna test with FIT files in hand: Is Pm really linear in Pr before saturation? Indications so far point to a nonlinear pre-saturation relationship. If confirmed, our reverse-engineering project becomes vastly more complicated.

 

[mschwett]

Agree, right now keeping M = 100 in every E/M test assist mode makes the most sense to me, as it eliminates a major confounding factor.

As before, the first thing I wanna test with FIT files in hand: Is Pm really linear in Pr before saturation? Indications so far point to a nonlinear pre-saturation relationship. If confirmed, our reverse-engineering project becomes vastly more complicated.

here’s a thought - since efficiency varies from 75 to 90 over the full cadence range, and the data is we’re gathering is electrical power, perhaps specialized has accounted for this and the boost factor decreases between 60 and 100 rpm to compensate. same rider power at 55rpm
and then 95 rpm would quickly illustrate this.

 

[rochrunner]

One of the features of Vado SL 4.0 Gen 1 I hated was the 10-speed drivetrain. Fancy you are riding at a good steady speed. The gaps in the 10-speed gearing make you either spin in one gear or mash the cranks in the next one. While I need a gear in which I can pedal at the optimum cadence! The 11-speed drivetrain has the gearing much better spaced, and that's very important to me. (I had to replace the drivetrain in my Vado SL to achieve my goal).

Did something change during the Gen 1's lifetime? Your post had me running downstairs to confirm that my SL 4.0 indeed has an 11-speed cassette just as my 5.0 has a 12-speed.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Did something change during the Gen 1's lifetime? Your post had me running downstairs to confirm that my SL 4.0 indeed has an 11-speed cassette just as my 5.0 has a 12-speed.

Yes, it did. The original Vado SL 4.0 (up to 2021) was equipped with a 10-speed Shimano drivetrain while it got the 11-speed SRAM NX since MY 2022.
Isn't your 5.0 a 12-speed Shimano?

 

[rochrunner]

Isn't your 5.0 a 12-speed Shimano?

Yes. I had forgotten that the SL originally came out in 2020 just after I'd bought my regular Vado 4.0. Then, when they changed it up for 2022, that's when I got my SL 5.0.

 

[mcdenny]

New Bike Day finally arrived.

It only took about ten days from order with LBS to delivery but the weather here in Nashville has been too bad want to bring it home. Today was the first sunny warmish day, 55 degrees but 20-30 mph wind. Just rode it a few miles around the neighborhood.

First impression - feels very similar to my Trek FX-3. It's 15 lbs heavier but I couldn't feel the difference riding it even with the motor turned off. The future shock and 45 psi 47 mm tires give a noticeably smoother ride than the Trek with 60 psi 32 mm tires and no suspension. Surprisingly easy to pedal unpowered. Motor noise is fine, silent at moderate power and only a very slight whine when I got up to about 25 mph and 90 cadence.

The LBS agreed to supply it with a 2" higher rise handlebar - which is backordered for a couple of more weeks. With the stock bars I'm a little bit too much leaned over, doable but the higher bars will be better. My non-powered Trek bike has virtually the same geometry and a 2"stem riser made it makes more comfortable.

New Spec E bikes with the Mastermind H3 display have a different switch to adjust motor support and scroll through screens. It will take a few rides to reeducate my left thumb. Using the Spec app to pair my phone and create some new display screens couldn't have been easier. I've never had a Bosch powered bike to compare but the Spec software seems almost as intuitive as Tesla's.

The seat seemed quite hard, going to try the Serfas aftermarket seat on my Trek. Swapped the grips with the Ergon ones from my Turbo Como. Added a Mirrcycle mirror.

Next Tuesday is supposed to be 65 degrees, light wind. I'm hoping to do some rider power / motor power measurements. Took it for a short ride in Turbo (100/100) after creating a rider power, mechanical power / rider power ratio, cadence screen. The "boost" number was all over the place. I recall seeing it as high as 10 at low rider power to 0.9 when I was exerting low 300 watts.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

I'm so happy McDenny with your happiness! Many safe rides!
P.S. What is the exact model? What is the colour name?

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

New Bike Day finally arrived.
View attachment 205613

It only took about ten days from order with LBS to delivery but the weather here in Nashville has been too bad want to bring it home. Today was the first sunny warmish day, 55 degrees but 20-30 mph wind. Just rode it a few miles around the neighborhood.

First impression - feels very similar to my Trek FX-3. It's 15 lbs heavier but I couldn't feel the difference riding it even with the motor turned off. The future shock and 45 psi 47 mm tires give a noticeably smoother ride than the Trek with 60 psi 32 mm tires and no suspension. Surprisingly easy to pedal unpowered. Motor noise is fine, silent at moderate power and only a very slight whine when I got up to about 25 mph and 90 cadence.

The LBS agreed to supply it with a 2" higher rise handlebar - which is backordered for a couple of more weeks. With the stock bars I'm a little bit too much leaned over, doable but the higher bars will be better. My non-powered Trek bike has virtually the same geometry and a 2"stem riser made it makes more comfortable.

New Spec E bikes with the Mastermind H3 display have a different switch to adjust motor support and scroll through screens. It will take a few rides to reeducate my left thumb. Using the Spec app to pair my phone and create some new display screens couldn't have been easier. I've never had a Bosch powered bike to compare but the Spec software seems almost as intuitive as Tesla's.

The seat seemed quite hard, going to try the Serfas aftermarket seat on my Trek. Swapped the grips with the Ergon ones from my Turbo Como. Added a Mirrcycle mirror.

Congrats! Great-looking bike! Looking forward to hearing more about it in action.

Next Tuesday is supposed to be 65 degrees, light wind. I'm hoping to do some rider power / motor power measurements. Took it for a short ride in Turbo (100/100) after creating a rider power, mechanical power / rider power ratio, cadence screen. The "boost" number was all over the place. I recall seeing it as high as 10 at low rider power to 0.9 when I was exerting low 300 watts.

Eager to hear your results. Even with somewhat controlled test rides, still unable make sense of the power ratio readings on my SL 1.

Can't argue with the results. The SL's power delivery couldn't feel more natural. Beginning to think that the algorithms needed to make that happen are vastly more complicated than any of us have imagined — even in ostensibly steady-state riding.

 

[mcdenny]

I'm so happy McDenny with your happiness! Many safe rides!
P.S. What is the exact model? What is the colour name?

It's a Turbo Vado SL 2 5.0 step through. Color is called something like deep lake blue matte. It looks blue-green in the picture but just looks blue in real life. Picture was taken about 90 minutes before sunset on a crystal clear day so that probably adds some yellow to the color.

Weirdly I just looked on the Spec website to get the exact color name and there are no SL 2 4.0 or 5.0 models listed???? It's Saturday afternoon so maybe they are doing site maintenance?

 

[mschwett]

It's a Turbo Vado SL 2 5.0 step through. Color is called something like deep lake blue matte. It looks blue-green in the picture but just looks blue in real life. Picture was taken about 90 minutes before sunset on a crystal clear day so that probably adds some yellow to the color.

Weirdly I just looked on the Spec website to get the exact color name and there are no SL 2 4.0 or 5.0 models listed???? It's Saturday afternoon so maybe they are doing site maintenance?

gorgeous color!

that color is called "Satin Deep Lake Metallic"

for some reason all the sl2 step thru bikes are removed from specialized us site, still show up on many of the foreign sites