Light vs regular full suspension ebikes

[Stefan Mikes]

the spokes need to be maintained.

They have regularly been. The bike mechanic explained it to me: "You are heavy, and the e-bike is heavy. You also carry your groceries on the rear rack. Now, your e-bike motor is powerful. It exerts a big stress on the rear hub, spokes and the rim. These three groups of components are the part of the equation, and neither can be ignored. Now, I'm not in the position to tell you what new wheel you need; do a little research yourself. I'll only can give a little hint to you: start with a DT Swiss 350 rear hub... but then make your homework yourself".

Oh I did. I only asked the mechanic to make the spoke choice and calculations for me. That wheel has been with me for 4 years already, no issues.

Carbon rims don't bend like that.

They simply crack, right?

 

[Johnny]

I had my first test ride on a lightweight emtb with a carbon frame and the TQ HPR50 motor.
I really loved the bike, although the ride wasn’t long enough to form a solid opinion about the motor’s performance overall.

What I liked:

• The motor assistance feels very natural, which I really appreciated.
• The motor is extremely quiet.
• It feels like a regular bike and is easy to ride even with the motor turned off.

Concerns:

• It was a flat lot, and even without assistance it was easy to ride. I’m unsure how the bike will perform on sustained climbs.
• Despite riding on flat terrain at a moderate pace with low support, the battery dropped 2–3% in about 10 minutes. That’s more than I expected, especially considering the relatively small 360 Wh battery.
• I looked into the range extender, but it’s only 160 Wh and costs around $550, which seems hard to justify.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

I looked into the range extender, but it’s only 160 Wh and costs around $550, which seems hard to justify.

I own four of them

Despite riding on flat terrain at a moderate pace with low support, the battery dropped 2–3% in about 10 minutes.

Please tell me how many miles it was.

 

[kevinmccune]

I don't ride an EMTB but we sell a lot of them at the shop. Mondraker Dune, Orbea Wild, Cannondale Moterra. All Bosch. Personally, I have two electric bikes, a full power Cannondale Tesoro, with a Bosch 85Nm motor, and a Pinarello Nytro E5 Allroad, which is a "commuter" bike built on a gravel frame, that has the TQ HPR50. They are completely different in weight and power.

The Cannondale, even on Eco, will pull you along once you get going. Crank up the assist, and it's clearly an electric bike without a throttle. It's also around 50 pounds, and a hardtail. It's a bit too much bike for me. The Pinarello is around 32 pounds, no suspension. You can get EMTBs with HPR50's close to that weight. The TQ is very different. Only on assist level High do you get that e-bike feeling. At normal assist levels, it's like riding in a tailwind. It's very quiet and very subtle. I ride it a lot with the assist off, because you can. It's light, fast, and handles like an analog bike. You may see some reports on the internet of HPR50 motors failing, or reducing power due to overheating. The main failure is the sprag clutch, which is what connects the crank to the motor. TQ has been very good at replacing them. The failures have mostly been in EMTB's ridden very hard for their entire battery range. To address this, TQ introduced the HPR60, which has external cooling fins, and updated software to limit power. The HPR60 can be retrofitted to most HPR50 bikes if needed.

The big kahuna in EMTB motors today is the DJI Avinox. It's a full power 105Nm mid drive motor with a smaller, lighter battery. DJI has found a way to increase efficiency to get reasonable range while having big power on tap in a lighter footprint. You can get it in the AMFLOW, and about a dozen smaller, some boutique, manufacturers. At least one big name brand will have one in their bike this spring. I'm not allowed to say who that is.

Imagine when the new emotor tech shifts down( there is a crazy new type of electric motor-crazy torque little footprint) forget the name now.

 

[kevinmccune]

I had my first test ride on a lightweight emtb with a carbon frame and the TQ HPR50 motor.
I really loved the bike, although the ride wasn’t long enough to form a solid opinion about the motor’s performance overall.

What I liked:

• The motor assistance feels very natural, which I really appreciated.
• The motor is extremely quiet.
• It feels like a regular bike and is easy to ride even with the motor turned off.

Concerns:

• It was a flat lot, and even without assistance it was easy to ride. I’m unsure how the bike will perform on sustained climbs.
• Despite riding on flat terrain at a moderate pace with low support, the battery dropped 2–3% in about 10 minutes. That’s more than I expected, especially considering the relatively small 360 Wh battery.
• I looked into the range extender, but it’s only 160 Wh and costs around $550, which seems hard to justify.

brew your own range extender,surely there is a way( bet Pedaluma could do it)

 

[stompandgo]

If the TQ service dongle cannot detect it, it cannot be configured to work in the system.

 

[MrClortho]

Recently, I’ve been thinking about getting another full suspension eMTB. Some of the newer models I’ve seen look really appealing. Although the prices seems to have increased a lot, the average offering seems to come with higher end components and I see a lot of CF frames.

While researching more traditional full powered eMTBs like those with Bosch CX(gen 5 seems decent) or Shimano EP8/EP801(old but there are a few good deals on these) motors, I realized there’s now a growing category of lighter eMTBs. These bikes pair less powerful motors with carbon frames and seem to offer a very different riding experience.

Several of the models I looked at use TQ HPR50 motors. They’re very light and visually, almost indistinguishable from regular mtbs. The trek I saw took me a moment before realizing that it was an electric bike. I’m curious to hear your opinion on this type of bikes compared to the regular ones.

I would be interested in something I can easily hop on, ride leisurely on hills, light trails, and that feels closer to a regular bike especially when the motor is turned off. Additionally, many of the trails in my area have a no–e-bike policy. I was wondering whether riding a TQ50 or similar light eMTB with the motor turned off would generally be acceptable on those trails.

Context: I came from a carbon frame, full suspension, analog MTB and ride primarily single track, tight, forest trails maybe considered 'moderate' difficulty and I suppose I could be considered 'experienced' but not a racer.

The weight increase to my Trek Rail 7 from the carbon bike is significant, like 22 lbs or more, but what I didn't expect is how little difference that feels. On an analog bike, the weight difference feels significant, but on the Rail, I got used to it quickly and actually prefer riding it on the trails. It is more of a point and shoot technique, but also handles quite well in the tight stuff.

I test rode the Fuel emtb, which was lighter but with less power and was not impressed. I wasn't going to make the switch to an emtb after the test ride until the salesman convinced me to ride the Rail, even though I was not interested due to its weight on paper. I ended up ordering the Rail the next day.

One of the aspects of the Rail I like, it isn't as aggressive of a geometry as my carbon bike, and therefore much more enjoyable on a leisurely 20+ mile easy trail ride. Sometimes I turn off the assist for a few miles to get my legs burning, but not on aggressive single track trails. I fell like it needs the minimal assist setting to make up for the weight on a trail on any kind of climbs.

 

[Chazmo]

Context: I came from a carbon frame, full suspension, analog MTB and ride primarily single track, tight, forest trails maybe considered 'moderate' difficulty and I suppose I could be considered 'experienced' but not a racer.

The weight increase to my Trek Rail 7 from the carbon bike is significant, like 22 lbs or more, but what I didn't expect is how little difference that feels. On an analog bike, the weight difference feels significant, but on the Rail, I got used to it quickly and actually prefer riding it on the trails. It is more of a point and shoot technique, but also handles quite well in the tight stuff.

I test rode the Fuel emtb, which was lighter but with less power and was not impressed. I wasn't going to make the switch to an emtb after the test ride until the salesman convinced me to ride the Rail, even though I was not interested due to its weight on paper. I ended up ordering the Rail the next day.

One of the aspects of the Rail I like, it isn't as aggressive of a geometry as my carbon bike, and therefore much more enjoyable on a leisurely 20+ mile easy trail ride. Sometimes I turn off the assist for a few miles to get my legs burning, but not on aggressive single track trails. I fell like it needs the minimal assist setting to make up for the weight on a trail on any kind of climbs.

The Trek looks like a nice bike, MrC. The Rail 7 Gen 3 is on closeout sale for 4K USD on the Trek US web site. Is that what you have? That’s a heckuva lot of great tech for the price, IMO. Does yours have the Bosch CX motor?

 

[Johnny]

Please tell me how many miles it was

1.5 miles at best.

One of the aspects of the Rail I like, it isn't as aggressive of a geometry as my carbon bike, and therefore much more enjoyable on a leisurely 20+ mile easy trail ride.

The bike I rode had nice geometry, playful, but still comfortable. It had a RockShox sid fork and rear suspension setup. When the motor was off, it felt far better than the older full-suspension bike with an older bosch cx that I used to have. I also mostly do leisure trail rides, not real mountain biking.
How do you like the Rail overall? Does the cx (i guess yours is gen 4?) have Garmin or similar connectivity to track rider data?

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Despite riding on flat terrain at a moderate pace with low support, the battery dropped 2–3% in about 10 minutes.

1.5 miles at best.

2.4 km, 2.4% battery. Seems legit to me. What was the battery size?

 

[MrClortho]

The Trek looks like a nice bike, MrC. The Rail 7 Gen 3 is on closeout sale for 4K USD on the Trek US web site. Is that what you have? That’s a heckuva lot of great tech for the price, IMO. Does yours have the Bosch CX motor?

I believe that is correct. The Rockshox fork isn't great (as compared to a Fox 32), the derailleur and brakes are mediocre, the rear shock is pretty nice and the rest of the package is really good. This is coming from a $4,500 full carbon XC analog bike that spoiled me in those ways with instant shifts and 1 finger brakes. I plan on upgrading the fork and front brake together, and when the derailleur dies, to upgrade it as well. Once that is done, it will be an epic emtb in my opinion.

The "smart" assist is spot on an tunable. In 30+ years of mtb life, this might be the first bike I really want to upgrade and keep for a very long time.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

when the derailleur dies

My Deore XT is still perfect after over 6 years of riding all year long

 

[Johnny]

I recently realized that Specialized lets you switch between Class 1 (20 mph) and Class 3 (28 mph), which is pretty awesome.
Even though I’m looking for an eMTB, I still ride on the road before getting to the trails, and I hit 20 mph pretty easily. The downside is that Specialized doesn’t offer this on any discounted bikes right now, and their MSRP prices have gone up a lot. I will still test ride one though.
I’ve tried a couple of bikes with the Bosch Gen 5 CX motor, and the new generation feels good, plenty of power and basically no noticeable drag when you’re past the assist limit. That said, I’m not convinced Bosch will ever really embrace the idea of switching between Class 1 and Class 3 in the U.S.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

That said, I’m not convinced Bosch will ever really embrace the idea of switching between Class 1 and Class 3 in the U.S.

No, Bosch won't do that. Bosch E-Bike motors are hard coded in the factory for a specific speed restriction. So, a regular U.S. motor is Class 1, and only "Speed" motors are Class 3.
While Specialized use motors that are good worldwide and are restricted to the regional law. Therefore, a U.S. Specialized dealer is allowed to reprogram the e-bike from Class 1 to Class 3 for certain e-bike models. (I'm not sure whether a Levo or any other Specialized e-MTB can be put in the Class 3 though because of the trail restrictions).

 

[PedalUma]

No, Bosch won't do that. Bosch E-Bike motors are hard coded in the factory for a specific speed restriction. So, a regular U.S. motor is Class 1, and only "Speed" motors are Class 3.
While Specialized use motors that are good worldwide and are restricted to the regional law. Therefore, a U.S. Specialized dealer is allowed to reprogram the e-bike from Class 1 to Class 3 for certain e-bike models. (I'm not sure whether a Levo or any other Specialized e-MTB can be put in the Class 3 though because of the trail restrictions).

At least as of last April the Specialized class three bikes plateau at about 24 mph and taper off assistance, cutting it all together by 28. @kevinmccune range extenders are proprietary. Good batteries have two discharge ports; positive Red and negative Black. It makes them universal. The woman riding across the continent this Spring has two batteries, a large one and a medium one. Both fit and lock into the same external holder. With her bike packing equipment she will have stretches of 125 miles of mountain gravel between charges. The bike frame was handmade for this purpose in Europe.

 

[kevinmccune]

At least as of last April the Specialized class three bikes plateau at about 24 mph and taper off assistance, cutting it all together by 28. @kevinmccune range extenders are proprietary. Good batteries have two discharge ports; positive Red and negative Black. It makes them universal. The woman riding across the continent this Spring has two batteries, a large one and a medium one. Both fit and lock into the same external holder. With her bike packing equipment she will have stretches of 125 miles of mountain gravel between charges. The bike frame was handmade for this purpose in Europe.

excellent. a word about my wife's best friends brother,He finally lost the injured leg and Vicky herself has been having some issues I thank everyone for their prayers for Alex( he went from a Guy with little going for Him to a cross country rider,He did complete some benefit(don't know which) and I am sure He will get back in the saddle after rehab time and circumstance levels us all.

 

[Johnny]

No, Bosch won't do that. Bosch E-Bike motors are hard coded in the factory for a specific speed restriction. So, a regular U.S. motor is Class 1, and only "Speed" motors are Class 3.

I wouldn’t call it hardcoded, since they increased the power and torque once the competition heated up.
Bosch seems stuck in its old ways, trying to maintain a monopoly and shape regulations to suit its interests. Perhaps they think this approach might work in the U.S., hoping to sell customers two bikes, but that’s unlikely to fly. It also appears they don’t support ANT+.
They also don’t seem to view the U.S. as a major market; otherwise, Specialized’s move should have prompted an immediate response from them.
I’m glad Specialized is more open-minded. I’m not buying this bike for commuting, but I also prefer not tohit a wall at 20mph on roads where I can legally ride it as a Class 3.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

I wouldn’t call it hardcoded, since they increased the power and torque once the competition heated up.

The speed restriction is hardcoded.

Bosch seems stuck in its old ways, trying to maintain a monopoly and shape regulations to suit its interests. Perhaps they think this approach might work in the U.S., hoping to sell customers two bikes, but that’s unlikely to fly.

Bosch is a German bureaucratic corporation. What would you expect from the nation that still works mostly with the paper, where cash is the preferred means of payment, and where the Internet is poor? Bosch thinks German and is German-centric, that's it.

It also appears they don’t support ANT+.

They don't. A primary reason for me not to ever buy a Bosch e-bike.

I’m not buying this bike for commuting, but I also prefer not tohit a wall at 20mph on roads where I can legally ride it as a Class 3.

Still, check whether the e-bike you want applies for the Class 3 upgrade.

 

[stompandgo]

The speed restriction is hardcoded.

It can be changed if the bike manufacturer allows it.

 

[PedalUma]

I can adjust everything the way I want for a particular bike.