No hands riding

[Marcela]

Not an ebike, and couldn't find the thread, someone was asking about riding with no hands and I was trying to explain the geometry. This pic is of a bike from the 70s. Note the front fork and the amount of distance the axle is ahead of the head stock bearings. With a setup like this you could ride around town without any hands, and turn corners easily.

 

[Slaphappygamer]

Sometimes, on my ebike, I ride with no feet. Especially downhill.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Not an ebike, and couldn't find the thread, someone was asking about riding with no hands and I was trying to explain the geometry. This pic is of a bike from the 70s. Note the front fork and the amount of distance the axle is ahead of the head stock bearings. With a setup like this you could ride around town without any hands, and turn corners easily.

Why not try it on an e-bike?

 

[spokewrench]

On a bicycle, that offset is called rake. It reduces trail. Trail is like the caster on a grocery cart. It lines the wheel up with the direction it's being pushed.

Head tube angle is what can make a bicycle self-steering. On a bicycle it's measured from horizontal. Yours seems to have 73 degrees. (On a motorcycle the angle is measured from vertical and called rake.)

When I was 11, I knew of a horizontal pipe 7 or 8 feet off the pavement. I could reach if from the saddle of my English bike. I'd swing out of the saddle and the riderless bike would continue straight until it slowed too much to stay up. If the head tube angle had been 90, it would have fallen as soon as I was gone. It it had been a little less, it might have stabilized itself in a circle. With a little less, it might have overcompensated slightly, to straighten the bike out in a new direction. The head tube angle on that bike was less than that. The steering overcorrected enough to straighten the bike out in the original direction. If the head tube angle had been too relaxed, overcorrection would have sent it swerving back and forth.

I see your seat tube is about 66 degrees from horizontal. That angle is important because without your hands on the bars, your center of mass has to be far enough behind the pedals and ahead of the seat for you to stabilize your upper body fore and aft. On my Radrunner the angle was about 74 degrees. Sometimes I had to lift my left hand to signal. Stabilizing myself on bumps with one hand was such a strain that I got tennis elbow (a torn tendon). Moving the seat aft let me stabilize my weight between seat and pedals so that riding with one or no hands was easy.

 

[Chargeride]

Im always riding no hands,. but not in the wind, the fat tyres act like sails and you get blown around.
Windsteer.
Good name for a fatbike model.
The new Specialized Windsteer.

 

[Marcela]

Why not try it on an e-bike?

I do. Just not as stable as something with more caster.

 

[spokewrench]

Im always riding no hands,. but not in the wind, the fat tyres act like sails and you get blown around.
Windsteer.

It seems to me that the wind would blow the bike around primarily through the rider, being higher and having a bigger cross section.

My fattest tires were the 3.3 inch ones on my Radrunner. Wind or no wind, it steered itself fine at the recommended 30 psi. If I found the pressure down to 25 or 20 psi and aired it back up, I'd notice the improvement.

Once, I reduced the pressure to 10 psi for snow and ice. Back on pavement, riding no-hands would have been impossible because leaning slightly caused the front tire to pull hard in that direction. In a crosswind I would have had to stay tipped into the wind and needed constant pressure on the bars to counteract the pull of the tire. I guess with a fat tire, lower pressure meant a wider contact patch, and tipping the bike would move the center of pressure against the pavement farther in that direction. Maybe a fat-tire bike would behave with a steeper head angle or a different tire construction.

 

[PCeBiker]

,..I guess with a fat tire, lower pressure meant a wider contact patch, and tipping the bike would move the center of pressure against the pavement farther in that direction. Maybe a fat-tire bike would behave with a steeper head angle or a different tire construction.

Self-steer on a fat bike is different.

The contact patch is oval and starts to go concave as the tire pressure goes down.
Then, instead of a flat contact patch, you are riding more on the edges of the oval with the center of that patch not even touching the ground.

Self-steer is one Hell of Weird feeling. It feels like your handlebars are locked or something.


I've always been able to ride any bike no-hands with a bit of practice to get the hang of it for each bike, but the quick-steer of todays bikes are harder to ride.
The steering is twitchy and takes time to get used to.

I ride no-hands over 90% of the time now, and with thousands of km of practice, I've gotten pretty good at it.

Steady wind is easy to deal with and you just naturally lean into the wind, but the gusts can blow you off the road if you're not careful.

I grew up riding similar bikes with the same geometry to what @Marcela posted and I think that was before they "invented" quick steering.

I've always hated quick steering and just found out that I am a Slacker that just got used to a "floppy" front wheel.

I could always flop my wheel around to ride slow up or down hills, but riding a quick steer bike or motorcycle was aways a white knuckle ride where I'd have to constantly force the bike to go where I'd want.

 

[PCeBiker]

I do. Just not as stable as something with more caster.

I've found that my heavy e-bike (as compared to a bicycle) is a little easier to ride no-hands.

The heavier e-bike has more inertia and takes more force to throw it offline. The heavier wheels have more centrifugal forces as the speed goes up that helps with stability and slows down the reaction of my ebike.

I put downhill air forks on my e-bike, and I can plow through 2" deep potholes and barely feel a thing.
When I catch an edge of a pothole, my heavy ebike doesn't react as dramatically.

If I were to catch that same edge on my lightweight bicycle, the edge would grab my wheel and throw it offline in an instant giving me no time to react.
A lighter bike with less inertia and centrifugal force can get tossed around with far less force, and it accelerates offline faster than a heavier bike.


I remember reading about a motorcycle designed to ride the autobahn way back in the day.

The front wheel didn't pivot. It was always allingned with the rear wheel, and when you "turned" the handlebars, the entire wheel would move right or left but still be pointing straight ahead.

The motorcycle had to get moving in a straight line at about 30 mph before the steering would start working, using "Out Tracking" like they teach you in a motorcycle training course.

That would be a very interesting ride to try and figure out.

You probably couldn't ride it no-hands, but I have no idea how to apply math and geometry to it?

I'd just wing it and see what happens, then apply the math later to try to make sense of it.

 

[Chargeride]

Something that is so weird, far more noticeable on a motorbike.
But on two wheels you can go around a left hand bend by steering right or left.
I used to go on long rides on my ZX12 steering around bends by pulling the left bar towards me to around to go around a right bend, and then do the opposite on the way back.
So obvious and well known, but still weird.

 

[PCeBiker]

Something that is so weird, far more noticeable on a motorbike.

I didn't learn about it until motorcycle training class.
Once I started applying it, it was amazing how it worked.

I remember the instructor saying that everyone does it to ride a bicycle but doesn't realize that they are doing it.

Once I learned about it, and practiced, it had a huge impact on my riding skills.

Once you're going about 20 mph, it's all out-tracking with the handlebars barely moving.
I could lean my motorcycle over till I was shooting sparks off my kick stand, but my handlebars only moved about ¼".

 

[spokewrench]

Something that is so weird, far more noticeable on a motorbike.
But on two wheels you can go around a left hand bend by steering right or left.
I used to go on long rides on my ZX12 steering around bends by pulling the left bar towards me to around to go around a right bend, and then do the opposite on the way back.
So obvious and well known, but still weird.

Countersteering. It may be subtle on a bicycle. Supposedly you steer a bicycle by leaning. How do you establish a lean if the head tube angle (rake on a motorcycle) is going to steer the front wheel to bring you upright (as demonstrated when I would swing out of the saddle of a moving bicycle)? To establish a left lean, as you lean, you press on the left bar enough to keep the wheel from turning left enough to keep you upright.

The pre-1970 BMW twins had a very low CG, due the horizontally opposed engines, low frames, and much greater mass than the rider. Suppose you want to lean 45 degrees left. If you shift the weight of your head and shoulders, it will take time to get the bike leaned over that far. If the CG is 12" high, steering the wheels (contact patches) 12" right will establish a lean 45 degrees left almost instantly. Countersteering made those bikes extremely agile, whether or not riders were conscious that that's what they were doing.

About midnight one night in September, 1970, I reached Charleston WV. It was raining. I'd been up 17 hours and on the road 7. I headed northeast on US 19. At the first opportunity, I intended to pitch my tent and sleep. With a low black bike and a low black tent, nobody would know I was there. Hour after hour, there was no place. The highway ran along the east side of the Appalachians. On my left, the ground went steeply up. On my right, it went steeply down. The speed limit was 60 mph, but every so often there was a 15 mph warning sign. Those turns were so sharp that a truck would block both lanes.

About 3 AM, I suddenly noticed I my headlight was shining into a void and I hadn't slowed from 60. Obviously, I'd missed a 15 mph sign. If I hadn't had a fairing, I could have looked down steeply enough to see pavement. As it was, I couldn't see which way the road had gone. For hours, mountains had been on my left and valleys on my right. My headlight was obviously shining out over a valley, so the road must have gone left. I was milliseconds from flying out over the valley. How could I lean into a hard left turn that fast? Countersteering. Slamming the bars hard right snapped the bike hard left. My Avon Safety Mileage Mark II's held in the rain, and I was fine.

 

[Marcela]

Self steering is real nice when going downwind and you grab your windbreaker and pull it up over your head and use it as a sail!

 

[spokewrench]

I used to do something like that coming home from the public swimming pool. There was a steep hill with a stop sign at the bottom. Rather than wear out my brakes, I'd spread my towel like a sail or drag parachute behind my head. It was effective. If the seat tube had been too steep, the jolt could have caused me to tumble backward off the seat.

 

[Marcela]

I switched tires on the como, from the oem s works to the schwalbe pick up. The s works are pretty thin on the sidewall, prob goes back to the gram weenies and saving a buck. The pick ups had pretty stout sidewall. Noticed it is much easier to ride no hands with the pick ups. Previously with the s works tires if the front started to shake just about the only way to stop it was to grab the handlebar. With the pick ups, there is no shake.

 

[PCeBiker]

Self steering is real nice when going downwind and you grab your windbreaker and pull it up over your head and use it as a sail!

Self steering means no steering.
The steering "locks" in a straight line.

An under inflated Fat tire goes concave leaving you riding on your sidewalls.

You have to Fight your handlebars to steer.

Works great for deep sand or snow.
Fricken Dangerous anywhere else.

 

[PCeBiker]

Why not try it on an e-bike?

I did, and do every ride.

I simply lock my throttle and fly.
Handlebars are for wimps.


Seriously dude, I can teach you how to ride no-hands.

I know you like to lean on your handlebars but, is it possible to hover your hands over the grips without them holding you up?

If so, wrap your hands around your handlebar grips without touching the grips.

Hover your hands, ready to grab the grips if you have to.

Practice on flat level ground.
Practice alone.
You don't want to show off or embarrass yourself.

I was riding 32 kph when I took this picture.
No-hands
No audience.

 

[LandoftheGiants]

Countersteering. It may be subtle on a bicycle. Supposedly you steer a bicycle by leaning.

It's a very misunderstood topic isn't it, but bikes are bikes and the same physics applies to both. Leaning is a natural consequence of the bike tipping over, to tip a bike over when moving you need to push/move the front wheel out of line with the rear. This is even noticeable as we come to a stop, if I push the bars one way the bike will tip in the opposite direction, the direction I want to put my foot down.

What the counter-steering actually does is briefly tip the bike over in the opposite direction to the direction of the front wheel, and as it falls into the turn the front wheel immediately straightens back up as soon as you take the pressure off and then points in the actual direction of travel. Now that the bike is leaned over it's falling, but because it's also turning in a corner the force pulling me down is equaled by the force wanting to throw the bike over, like a train taking a corner too fast. At this point steering is actually controlled by the rear wheel! Most obviously on a motorcycle. Because the tires are round and not flat there is a difference in speed between the inside of the contact patch and the outside, this difference "marches" the rear across the road at 90-deg to the direction of travel, the greater the lean, the greater the sideways motion. The rear pushes the bike around the corner if power is applied.

When a person "leans" into a corner what they are doing is unconsciously pushing the bars in a counter-steering movement. You can see it just sitting a desk in an office chair. Just sit leaned forward with your arms out relaxed in front on the desk and now lean your body to one side, you'll notice the hand closest to the lean will be pushed away from you, the other drawn towards you. If those hands are gripping bars the bars will obviously move in the counter direction, pushing the imaginary front wheel away from the lean. It's a real Ah Ha moment when riders realize this fact and it removes a lot of cornering fear. Especially if the practice aggressive counter-steering. On the race track riders can change direction in an instant with aggressive counter-steering motions. You'd think the front wheel would lose traction but it all happens so fast it doesn't and all of a sudden the bike is on it's side and zipping around the corner. As they power out the rear marches across the track and being slightly offline now pushes the bike into a tighter turn and pushes it upright again. It's magic

A good vid on the physics of it all.

 

[Marcela]

AI

 

[PCeBiker]

I was riding in 20 mph crosswinds last year on the highway.
Two motorcycles were coming towards me.

I decided to wave to them with both my hands.
One hand for each rider.

I got blown sideways 3-4 feet before I caught my balance and waved as I passed.

The first motorcycle was an enduro type motorcycle that was tall and light.
He was out-tracking so hard that he could only wave back to me with one hand.

The second motorcycle was a street bike that was heavy and short.
He waved back with both hands, and his bike didn't wobble at all.