Getting good grades

[Jeremy McCreary]

Gee, wonder what the grade is here?

Looking for simple ways to answer this question to ±1% grade (not 1% relative error). Lots of short, steep hills around here. Some long ones, too.

The goal is simply to develop a feel for grade.

Please note: This is a casual rider's casual project. Will have an Android phone in my pocket for data collection, calculations, and perhaps a measuring app, but not on the bars. Nor am I interested in a separate bike computer. OK with hauling small tools and making quick measurement stops. Very familiar with the math.

Found a small ball-type handlebar inclinometer, but the reviews aren't encouraging:

https://www.amazon.com/Sun-Company-CyclClimb-Inclinometer-Handlebar/dp/B06XCMXRVP/ref=mp_s_a_1_1_sspa?crid=1VRZVV9IM4Z37&keywords=bike+inclinometer&qid=1675474999&sprefix=bike+inclin%2Caps%2C190&sr=8-1-spons&psc=1&smid=ASQWOY2MK2ESU&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUExTE9CNkZDVVRXTVZKJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwOTUyNzU4MUE5RzNTUUJUSDRRTSZlbmNyeXB0ZWRBZElkPUEwMTk2MTg0Mk45NVpURkZEUEY4RiZ3aWRnZXROYW1lPXNwX3Bob25lX3NlYXJjaF9hdGYmYWN0aW9uPWNsaWNrUmVkaXJlY3QmZG9Ob3RMb2dDbGljaz10cnVl

Still learning the free version of Ride With GPS, but not sure it will ever give me spot grades. Can often work out grades in Google Earth, but not on the fly. Google Maps sometimes shows ride profiles, but not with grades.

Anybody have experience with the old-school level+ruler method? (Measures rise and run of road surface beneath level. Grade = 100% x rise/run.)

Wondering if a 6- or 9-inch level would be long enough for ±1% accuracy?

 

[Rexlion]

Aha, you are inclined to take on a project!

 

[tomjasz]

I’ll grade your posts as A+.
always uphill, never downgrading and fun to read.

oh wait, you mean uphill?

 

[Bicyclista]

Can't you just get an app for your smartphone? I have two on my iPhone that measure inclination: iHandy Level and Measure. They probably have Android versions as well.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

Can't you just get an app for your smartphone? I have two on my iPhone that measure inclination: iHandy Level and Measure. They probably have Android versions as well.

Tried a couple that didn't pan out. Your post inspired me to look again. Now I have one called -- of all things -- "Simple inclinometer". Looks promising. Thanks!

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Jeremy, why not just use an app such as RideWithGPS where all the grades are based on maps, and the survey had been already done a long time ago?

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

Jeremy, why not just use an app such as RideWithGPS where all the grades are based on maps, and the survey had been already done a long time ago?

Thanks! Played around with a few test routes in RideWithGPS yesterday without actually riding them. Didn't see grades, but still very new to this app.

Do you have to start recording a ride to see the grade you're on at the moment?

ADDENDUM: Sorry, figured it out. You have to expand the elevation panel to get a cursor showing spot grade.

This should do for now.

 

[6zfshdb]

The problem with using the level & ruler method is finding a spot to measure that is typical of the entire surface. This is just about impossible on dirt or gravel trails.

I use a handheld bar mounted GPS with a built in inclinometer. Once calibrated, it gives fairly good results but I doubt it's accurate to +- 1%. Is there a reason you need that degree of accuracy?

 

[fooferdoggie]

the gamins with altimeters will give you the grade. but they can be slow so 1 or two blocks may not be enough to get it. hammerhead is really fast with grades and they both tend to agree with each other. but once you do it awhile you get a feel for the grade your on.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

The problem with using the level & ruler method is finding a spot to measure that is typical of the entire surface. This is just about impossible on dirt or gravel trails.

I use a handheld bar mounted GPS with a built in inclinometer. Once calibrated, it gives fairly good results but I doubt it's accurate to +- 1%. Is there a reason you need that degree of accuracy?

Good points. I should clarify that the desired ±1% is absolute error, not relative. So I'm after X-1 to X+1 on an X% grade, not ±1% of X itself.

Maybe it's unrealistic, but I picked ±1% because I think I'd feel a 2% increase in grade -- say from 4% to 6%.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Played around with a few test routes in RideWithGPS yesterday without actually riding them. Didn't see grades, but still very new to this app.

Plan a route with the Route Planner (on a computer). You will see a chart with Elevation, Surfaces and Grade at the bottom of the screen.

 

[Kayakguy]

Gee, wonder what the grade is here?

Looking for simple ways to answer this question to ±1% grade (not 1% relative error). Lots of short, steep hills around here. Some long ones, too.

The goal is simply to develop a feel for grade.

Please note: This is a casual rider's casual project. Will have an Android phone in my pocket for data collection, calculations, and perhaps a measuring app, but not on the bars. Nor am I interested in a separate bike computer. OK with hauling small tools and making quick measurement stops. Very familiar with the math.

Found a small ball-type handlebar inclinometer, but the reviews aren't encouraging:

https://www.amazon.com/Sun-Company-CyclClimb-Inclinometer-Handlebar/dp/B06XCMXRVP/ref=mp_s_a_1_1_sspa?crid=1VRZVV9IM4Z37&keywords=bike+inclinometer&qid=1675474999&sprefix=bike+inclin%2Caps%2C190&sr=8-1-spons&psc=1&smid=ASQWOY2MK2ESU&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUExTE9CNkZDVVRXTVZKJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwOTUyNzU4MUE5RzNTUUJUSDRRTSZlbmNyeXB0ZWRBZElkPUEwMTk2MTg0Mk45NVpURkZEUEY4RiZ3aWRnZXROYW1lPXNwX3Bob25lX3NlYXJjaF9hdGYmYWN0aW9uPWNsaWNrUmVkaXJlY3QmZG9Ob3RMb2dDbGljaz10cnVl

Still learning the free version of Ride With GPS, but not sure it will ever give me spot grades. Can often work out grades in Google Earth, but not on the fly. Google Maps sometimes shows ride profiles, but not with grades.

Anybody have experience with the old-school level+ruler method? (Measures rise and run of road surface beneath level. Grade = 100% x rise/run.)

Wondering if a 6- or 9-inch level would be long enough for ±1% accuracy?

No, I believe it would not be long enough for accuracy. For best accuracy, the longer the better. To determine a grade with some accuracy, it would be best to use a longer base than any device with a short baseline. The easiest way to do this is to use a long stick, such as a yard stick or longer. That's because the grade on most paved is not constantly even surface. A short level, such as a torpedo level can work fine as long it is used with long enough stick to span any even surfaces in the pavement.

 

[tomjasz]

I road my Campy Reynolds acoustic bikes for three decades without a single road grade rating. How ever did we survive without the city boy toys. Now we need AI to prove one guys pecker is bigger than the other. YAWN.

 

[fooferdoggie]

I used to walk uphill both ways for 6 miles to go to school how did we ever make with only feet.

 

[indianajo]

Gee, wonder what the grade is here?
Anybody have experience with the old-school level+ruler method? (Measures rise and run of road surface beneath level. Grade = 100% x rise/run.)
Wondering if a 6- or 9-inch level would be long enough for ±1% accuracy?

I done it with an 8" level from K-mart, 6" flat & 2 pinched ends, and a machinists scale 6" long. I imagine my accuracy is ~5%. My calculation of 7/8" rise in 6" works to 14.6" grade, but I report it as 15%. Requires a quiet road where you can lay next to the pavement with the instrument on the edge.
My machinist's scale has 64" graduations, but I don't carry reading glasses on the bicycle and couldn't read it that accurately. No light clamped to my forehead, either.
As far as fancy instruments, I buy very little from ***** since they were part of the movement that got me a low draft number in 1969. Besides the 1 million funny looking people they put in jail in 2018-20 (that look like me), the writers that disappear, this week they flew an observation balloon over our ballistic missile base in Montana. I'm supposed to support that dictator with my hard earned cash? My cell phone cost a whole $55 and doesn't do apps. It will call 911 or a wrecker.

 

[mschwett]

maps, including the basemaps that Strava, RwGPS, and others use are notoriously bad for grades unless they’re purpose-made for the roads. the underlying terrain models are based on a limited set of survey points, extrapolated to a contour model, across which the road surface cuts at an angle.

you will not, at any one precise moment, be within one percent in any kind of mountainous or hilly terrain. a digital level and reasonably long rulers could get you that close for the exact section you’re measuring, but you’d have to stop a lot to ascertain the overall grade of a meaningfully long section. road surfaces are lumpy!

if there’s no wind, i find a bike’s power meter and speed sensor to be the best indicator. with a known weight, speed, and power, grade is easy to determine well within one “absolute” percent. probably not convenient for your use case, but I am often looking at my riding app and thinking, damn, 5mph at 250w, they said this was a 10% grade, but it’s 12! a later careful check with google earth almost always corroborates the physics.

average grades over a long distance on RwGPS and similar are usually extremely reliable, since the base contour data isn’t terribly far off at any one point in absolute terms - if over 5000’ the maps says you go from 0 to 500 feet in elevation, the average is definitely very close to 10%. however, at any one point where it says “10%” it could very easily be 8 or 12.

i‘m not aware of a bike computer that calculates grade based on the actual angle of the device relative to gravity, but an iPhones level app would quite accurate for this if mounted correctly on the bike.

 

[fooferdoggie]

After awhile I know the grade by feel and don’t need the Garmin. But that takes time and experience

 

[Rexlion]

Good points. I should clarify that the desired ±1% is absolute error, not relative. So I'm after X-1 to X+1 on an X% grade, not ±1% of X itself.

Plus or minus one "percentage point", then. That seems to be the way I hear it expressed sometimes. It's a reasonable target to shoot for IMO.

Disregard the nabobs of negativity. You're curious to know something, so you've set about to learn what you want to know. Nothing wrong with that. But you know, some people would have criticized Galileo for satisfying his curiosity about the universe, too.

 

[Rexlion]

After awhile I know the grade by feel and don’t need the Garmin. But that airs time and experience

Umm, in no wind, maybe.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

The good news: This thread pried me away from my old-guy old-school thinking and got me to spring for the basic RideWithGPS membership. That opened up all the tools I think I'll need to develop a feel for the grades I'm on in real time.

Toward that end, I planned out a nearby 4.1 mi test loop with 355' of climbing on (now known) grades up to 10.6% when ridden counterclockwise.

Did 4 laps on the loop yesterday -- the first 3 at PAS 1/9, and the last with more assist on the steepest climbs. Having studied the grades before and after, I now have some feel for at least the steepest parts.

If I want the grade I'm on at the moment, I'll have to stop and get out my phone (still waiting for Mous to make a Note20 Interlock case). But would have had to stop for any old-school method anyway, and RideWithGPS is probably much more accurate.

Thanks, everyone!