'Zen Skunkworks' - a new model in the development

[drewberz]

@Ravi Kempaiah Does this frame color fall under the 'hi-viz' bucket? I personally love hi-viz colors and think they provide a lot of utility in the form of safety. But, not everyone likes a bright green or orange frame! If you do decide on a more muted frame color than this, please consider offering a retroreflective kit or some other form for the sake of visibility.

 

[vincent]

i like drews suggestions, agree maybe 1 bright color and black if you have to keep the number of colors down

looks great!! super excited!

 

[4mk]

Frames rolling out of the paint booth.
We would be interested in getting feedback from the community if they would like to see any particular feature or color. At this price point, we can't offer one-off, custom features and the bike is already packed with great features.
We are focusing on maintaining high-quality and reliability.

View attachment 73908

View attachment 73907

Not a big fan of pea green; how about a bright blue, red or purple.. thanks for the opportunity to provide feedback

 

[FlatSix911]

i like drews suggestions, agree maybe 1 bright color and black if you have to keep the number of colors down

looks great!! super excited!

I agree that Black should be offered as a color... preferably Matte!

 

[Sierratim]

It's been well established that red is the fasterest color, esp candy apple red!

 

[Duck and Cover]

Bright green/yellow yes. https://www.google.com/search?q=che...Wqm-AKHUOJDHUQ_AUoAXoECBEQAw&biw=1707&bih=818 Pea green no.

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

I know there are many keen eyes on the EBR forum and thanks guys for the feedback!

We are still experimenting with different colors but it is always good to get feedback from folks here.

As @drewberz and @Duck and Cover mentioned, we wanted to try a Hi-viz color like the Chevy Bolt in that picture, mainly for utility/safety purposes but of course, we will consider a more muted color with a matte finish. The matte finish was our original goal but the painter could not find that particular tone within the time we wanted.
Thanks @FlatSix911, we will have a matt black color as well.

 

[JRA]

I like the color Ravi. Looking good!

 

[johnotterman]

I agree that Black should be offered as a color... preferably Matte!

View attachment 73969

I like the look of Matte Black but Matte has a way of looking really, really bad over time. Oils from objects and your body burn into the paint and leave worn down areas. Scratches are also more visible. Reason Apple decided to drop the finish all together on the iPhone 8 and never bring it back. Many other phone companies followed suit. It's a finish that is very beautiful new but does not stand the test of time.

 

[Gwiloo]

I recently tested this Zen model (not the Samurai) in a medium frame for a week. Over the past three years, I have ridden several eBikes (some stolen ... including EBGO, Aventon Level, FUELL, Specialized Vado 3).
I did a round trip to work of about 30KM. There is a 700m elevation - mostly in a single hill. I am a 50y/o in not-so-great shape though I love biking! I live in Toronto, ON (Canada)

I will be testing the Samurai and will provide an update. I summarize the "Zen" as follows:

OVERALL FEEL
This is the BEST 'feeling' bike I have EVER ridden - better than the FUELL. I felt like I was on a motorcycle. I was able to weave in and out of traffic, zip from bike lanes to sidewalks to park trails. It was incredibly comfortable and surprisingly maneuverable. Given its weight - I was worried it would not feel as nimble as a traditional bike (non-electrified)

FRAME/COMFORT
The bike has a similar frame to the Samurai. I am about 5'6". It was comfortable with the seat at its lowest setting. I was able to get on and off the bike with relative ease though the Samurai model seems to have a slightly lower bar which would make it slightly easier. I would prefer a mid-rise. The frame is solidly built. It felt very solid without any vibration or bending.

MOTOR/CONTROLLER
The bike is powered by an Ananda motor. I believe its 500W. It was quiet with nominal noise at low speeds while at high speeds I did not notice any sound. It is very powerful. There are 5 power levels. The big seems to go from modest to very high. I did not notice any discernable different on the last 5 levels. It seems like from the 3 level onwards - it is at full power. It would benefit from spreading the power levels more evenly. Ravi advised that it will be modified as suggested.

Ideally it would be great to have the ability to customize your power levels such is done with Specialized bikes or some other companies.

Another minor issue is the cables coming out of the motor (or through the assembly) to the rear wheel is exposed. I suggested this being covered or 'caulked' to eliminate water getting in. Ravi agreed.

ENVIOLO "Transmission" (not a derailleur)
It is smooth and quiet. Though I was told to slow slightly before shifting - experts at various LBS' said you do NOT need to. (I did slow my pedaling before shifting). I did feel that it needs a lower gear. Perhaps because the motor is so strong - there was no resistance while pedaling when motor is at the 3rd level (or higher). I rarely shifted from the flat position - even when going up a steep hill I must travel to get to work.
I would be happy with any IHG. With this bike (or most riding I do) - I really only need 3 gears - flat, steep and one in the middle.

HANDLBARS
LOVE the handlebars. They are adjustable (with a tool). They are very comfortable.

RACK
The rack is nice but I would prefer if it was 2cm longer as my pannier is on the larger size. Given that many people who use this bike will likely go on long journeys - this is likely useful.

DISPLAY
The display is basic. It shows the power level, speed, KM ridden and battery level (5 'buttons'). It would benefit from at least a few modifications including % battery so that one does not go from 20% to 0.
The FUELL display would be the Gold Standard with many features and ways to adjust. However, I used few of those features. Accordingly, I was happy with the information provided - aside from batter level.

WEIGHT
The bike is on the heavy side which is the result of having a large battery. If you were living in an apartment - this could be a problem.

BRAKES
The brakes are good. The bike is able to stop in short order.

SEAT/FRONT SUSPENSION
The front shock is excellent. It dampens bumps well - and progressively. I was very impressed by it.

The seat was comfortable.
The suspension was a little stiff. I would prefer it to be a little softer to absorb bumps a little more.

TIRES
The tires are great. The size is great for riding in multiple conditions.

BATTERY
The battery is BIG. I rode about 65km before charging with the battery indicator on the 3rd bar (not sure actual percent available). While in theory each bar represents 20% of the battery life - I find that on most bikes the relationship is not linear.

OVERALL
Great Bike
Great Value
VERY powerful motor
very quiet bike
Very solidly built

FEATURES TO ADD
As I discussed with Ravi - I would love to see a way for anti-theft features to be added such as brakes that lock or a way to lock the pedal or motor on demand.

I am looking forward to comparing this to the Samuari.

I will update pics soon

Michael

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

I recently tested this Zen model (not the Samurai) in a medium frame for a week. Over the past three years, I have ridden several eBikes (some stolen ... including EBGO, Aventon Level, FUELL, Specialized Vado 3).
I did a round trip to work of about 30KM. There is a 700m elevation - mostly in a single hill. I am a 50y/o in not-so-great shape though I love biking! I live in Toronto, ON (Canada)

I will be testing the Samurai and will provide an update. I summarize the "Zen" as follows:

OVERALL FEEL
This is the BEST 'feeling' bike I have EVER ridden - better than the FUELL. I felt like I was on a motorcycle. I was able to weave in and out of traffic, zip from bike lanes to sidewalks to park trails. It was incredibly comfortable and surprisingly maneuverable. Given its weight - I was worried it would not feel as nimble as a traditional bike (non-electrified)

FRAME/COMFORT
The bike has a similar frame to the Samurai. I am about 5'6". It was comfortable with the seat at its lowest setting. I was able to get on and off the bike with relative ease though the Samurai model seems to have a slightly lower bar which would make it slightly easier. I would prefer a mid-rise. The frame is solidly built. It felt very solid without any vibration or bending.

MOTOR/CONTROLLER
The bike is powered by an Ananda motor. I believe its 500W. It was quiet with nominal noise at low speeds while at high speeds I did not notice any sound. It is very powerful. There are 5 power levels. The big seems to go from modest to very high. I did not notice any discernable different on the last 5 levels. It seems like from the 3 level onwards - it is at full power. It would benefit from spreading the power levels more evenly. Ravi advised that it will be modified as suggested.

Ideally it would be great to have the ability to customize your power levels such is done with Specialized bikes or some other companies.

Another minor issue is the cables coming out of the motor (or through the assembly) to the rear wheel is exposed. I suggested this being covered or 'caulked' to eliminate water getting in. Ravi agreed.

ENVIOLO "Transmission" (not a derailleur)
It is smooth and quiet. Though I was told to slow slightly before shifting - experts at various LBS' said you do NOT need to. (I did slow my pedaling before shifting). I did feel that it needs a lower gear. Perhaps because the motor is so strong - there was no resistance while pedaling when motor is at the 3rd level (or higher). I rarely shifted from the flat position - even when going up a steep hill I must travel to get to work.
I would be happy with any IHG. With this bike (or most riding I do) - I really only need 3 gears - flat, steep and one in the middle.

HANDLBARS
LOVE the handlebars. They are adjustable (with a tool). They are very comfortable.

RACK
The rack is nice but I would prefer if it was 2cm longer as my pannier is on the larger size. Given that many people who use this bike will likely go on long journeys - this is likely useful.

DISPLAY
The display is basic. It shows the power level, speed, KM ridden and battery level (5 'buttons'). It would benefit from at least a few modifications including % battery so that one does not go from 20% to 0.
The FUELL display would be the Gold Standard with many features and ways to adjust. However, I used few of those features. Accordingly, I was happy with the information provided - aside from batter level.

WEIGHT
The bike is on the heavy side which is the result of having a large battery. If you were living in an apartment - this could be a problem.

BRAKES
The brakes are good. The bike is able to stop in short order.

SEAT/FRONT SUSPENSION
The front shock is excellent. It dampens bumps well - and progressively. I was very impressed by it.

The seat was comfortable.
The suspension was a little stiff. I would prefer it to be a little softer to absorb bumps a little more.

TIRES
The tires are great. The size is great for riding in multiple conditions.

BATTERY
The battery is BIG. I rode about 65km before charging with the battery indicator on the 3rd bar (not sure actual percent available). While in theory each bar represents 20% of the battery life - I find that on most bikes the relationship is not linear.

OVERALL
Great Bike
Great Value
VERY powerful motor
very quiet bike
Very solidly built

FEATURES TO ADD
As I discussed with Ravi - I would love to see a way for anti-theft features to be added such as brakes that lock or a way to lock the pedal or motor on demand.

I am looking forward to comparing this to the Samuari.

I will update pics soon

Michael

Many thanks for your feedback, Michael!
For those interested, this is the E-bike Miachel test rode for a few days.
Because of the large, 960Whr battery, it has some heft to it but it is surpsingly nimble.

 

[Explorer-1]

Looks like a Juiced RCS frame design.

 

[cycolojist]

I definitely like the design of this model, with a single @1000-ish kwh battery integrated into the frame, vs 500kwh integrated and an additional 500kwh "bolted on". I feel this design would suit my daily 65k commute best.
I'll ask this of anyone who thinks they know. Is there a good reference for estimating the impact of ambient temperatures (think cold weather) on battery performance?
Are there any defined low temperature limits beyond which one should not operate a properly designed ebike?
Thanks

 

[cycolojist]

I definitely like the design of this model, with a single @1000-ish kwh battery integrated into the frame, vs 500kwh integrated and an additional 500kwh "bolted on". I feel this design would suit my daily 65k commute best.
I'll ask this of anyone who thinks they know. Is there a good reference for estimating the impact of ambient temperatures (think cold weather) on battery performance?
Are there any defined low temperature limits beyond which one should not operate a properly designed ebike?
Thanks

Okay, I do see the reasonably good article here,
https://www.ebikingtoday.com/how-cold-weather-affects-electric-bikes-problems-and-solutions/
Can anyone verify the estimated 30-40% range reduction when temps dip below freezing?

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

I definitely like the design of this model, with a single @1000-ish kwh battery integrated into the frame, vs 500kwh integrated and an additional 500kwh "bolted on". I feel this design would suit my daily 65k commute best.
I'll ask this of anyone who thinks they know. Is there a good reference for estimating the impact of ambient temperatures (think cold weather) on battery performance?
Are there any defined low temperature limits beyond which one should not operate a properly designed ebike?
Thanks

The best way to minimize temperature-related range reduction is to keep the battery or the E-bike indoors and not subject the battery to cold temperatures. In this manner, you only see a range reduction of ~10%.
If you're looking for 65km commute, this bike will handle it nonchalantly. We did a lot of range tests and found that we could go 150kms on Tour mode on one single charge.

 

[scottsdalecommuter]

The best way to minimize temperature-related range reduction is to keep the battery or the E-bike indoors and not subject the battery to cold temperatures. In this manner, you only see a range reduction of ~10%.
If you're looking for 65km commute, this bike will handle it nonchalantly. We did a lot of range tests and found that we could go 150kms on Tour mode on one single charge.

The best way to minimize temperature-related range reduction is to keep the battery or the E-bike indoors and not subject the battery to cold temperatures. In this manner, you only see a range reduction of ~10%.
If you're looking for 65km commute, this bike will handle it nonchalantly. We did a lot of range tests and found that we could go 150kms on Tour mode on one single charge.

I’ve started pulling my battery off and storing indoors now at home and office since the temps have dropped in Illinois. I was a bit surprised how much range and performance dropped with cold weather and especially surprised how cold to the touch the battery gets and stays for a while after my ride. I’m more concerned about life of the battery than range performance since my current commute is under four miles. Asked a colleague in Chicago how his Tesla does in cold and he said the range drops way down. Sure wish I would have bought your zen bike had I known i would be moving to Illinois! Suspension, Igh, and belt drive would be fantastic to have right now.

 

[brdef]

Other things to keep in mind for lithium ion battery life.

Avoid the following no matter what:
- leaving the batteries charged to 100% constantly without using them
- leaving the batteries depleted to 0% constantly (even worse than the above)
When the lithium ions are left overwhelmingly deposited on either the cathode or anode side of the jelly roll for an extended time, it causes permanent damage to the battery, reducing its capacity. So even leaving a battery at 100% for a long time is very damaging. (Same is true of your phone...)
If you leave the battery at 0% for a long time, self-discharge will cause the voltage to drop below the safe level for lithium ion. When the battery is recharged, dendrites can form that cause battery explosion.

Avoid the following if you can help it, and don't need the extra range:
- charging the batteries above 80~90%
You'll get hundreds or thousands of more charging cycles out of li-ions by limiting charging in this way. Charge the batteries only as much as you need range.

The healthiest long-term state for a lithium battery is at 50% charge. If you intend to store li-ion batteries unused for longer than a week, you should deplete the battery to 60% (to give some margin for natural self-discharge)

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

Other things to keep in mind for lithium ion battery life.

Avoid the following no matter what:
- leaving the batteries charged to 100% constantly without using them
- leaving the batteries depleted to 0% constantly (even worse than the above)
When the lithium ions are left overwhelmingly deposited on either the cathode or anode side of the jelly roll for an extended time, it causes permanent damage to the battery, reducing its capacity. So even leaving a battery at 100% for a long time is very damaging. (Same is true of your phone...)
If you leave the battery at 0% for a long time, self-discharge will cause the voltage to drop below the safe level for lithium ion. When the battery is recharged, dendrites can form that cause battery explosion.

Avoid the following if you can help it, and don't need the extra range:
- charging the batteries above 80~90%
You'll get hundreds or thousands of more charging cycles out of li-ions by limiting charging in this way. Charge the batteries only as much as you need range.

The healthiest long-term state for a lithium battery is at 50% charge. If you intend to store li-ion batteries unused for longer than a week, you should deplete the battery to 60% (to give some margin for natural self-discharge)

Thanks for sharing this, and we concur with you.
One of our major efforts in 2023 is to build high-quality battery packs right here in Canada that would have advanced safety features built in such that it would last 2000+ cycles, and at that point, E-bike batteries would offer the same kind of longevity as electric car batteries. Currently, in our lab at Dalhousie, led by Dr. Dahn, we have cells that show 1000+ cycles even operating at 85'C (celsius!), and it's absolutely incredible. When run at 50'C, these cells can last 2000+ cycles before hitting 80% state of health. We hope to release a video about this shortly.

 

[scottsdalecommuter]

Other things to keep in mind for lithium ion battery life.

Avoid the following no matter what:
- leaving the batteries charged to 100% constantly without using them
- leaving the batteries depleted to 0% constantly (even worse than the above)
When the lithium ions are left overwhelmingly deposited on either the cathode or anode side of the jelly roll for an extended time, it causes permanent damage to the battery, reducing its capacity. So even leaving a battery at 100% for a long time is very damaging. (Same is true of your phone...)
If you leave the battery at 0% for a long time, self-discharge will cause the voltage to drop below the safe level for lithium ion. When the battery is recharged, dendrites can form that cause battery explosion.

Avoid the following if you can help it, and don't need the extra range:
- charging the batteries above 80~90%
You'll get hundreds or thousands of more charging cycles out of li-ions by limiting charging in this way. Charge the batteries only as much as you need range.

The healthiest long-term state for a lithium battery is at 50% charge. If you intend to store li-ion batteries unused for longer than a week, you should deplete the battery to 60% (to give some margin for natural self-discharge)

Interesting, thanks for sharing. I don’t really need the range since my commute is so short so could just pull the battery off the charger an hour earlier? It usually takes 4 hours to charge so pulling it at 3 hours would be about right. Out of curiosity, why is it so bad to get that extra hour of charge on there especially when I plan to ride it within a day?

 

[brdef]

Interesting, thanks for sharing. I don’t really need the range since my commute is so short so could just pull the battery off the charger an hour earlier? It usually takes 4 hours to charge so pulling it at 3 hours would be about right. Out of curiosity, why is it so bad to get that extra hour of charge on there especially when I plan to ride it within a day?

I couldn't say the precise reason why charging to a higher voltage reduces capacity faster. It is a more chemically extreme state for the battery
There are lots of tables online showing how many charging cycles you get out of a battery vs how fully you charge it