Alphbetadog
Active Member
The non-throttled 250/350 ones don't hurt anything except the egos of some of the hard-core types that would like to keep the trails all to themselves.
Why Electric Bikes Shouldn't Be Allowed on Mountain Biking Trails?
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JRA
Well-Known Member
Think about this for a second if you will. A throttled bike at even 1000w won't do any more damage to a trail than one with PAS. 1 1/4 h.p. with the weight of the bike and rider just isn't enough to make the bike "roost" like everyone seems to think. At 250/350 it is a non-sequitur.
PAS encourages one to pedal which is a good thing, and with a throttle you can choose not to pedal (which gets you less overall power and range) but you have the option to do either and most find pedaling to be good exercise and those that don't probably aren't going to be out ruining single track, at least for very long. The overpowered non compliant bikes could cause problems but with a mature rider aboard it shouldn't.
So the industry, due to the EU Pedelec standard, has decided that PAS is the only way to go and is going as far as to push forward legislation to make it seem like it is the only way to go here also. But the CA law, that I saw posted on here the other day that someone thinks is recognized nationally which it isn't, only differentiates between PAS and throttle but not in how they are allowed to operate.
So perhaps we should put to rest the PAS is the only way to go diatribe and realize that there is really no difference other than what the end user prefers.
As far as mtb use on single track mixing it up with the current mtb crowd I saw this problem coming as soon as I saw my first e mtb online 4-5 years ago. I told people then, including IMBA, that there were going to be issues integrating them here. The bicycle community at large is slow to adopt to change and it will get sorted eventually. The more people that ride e bikes and pass them around the sooner that will happen. In the meantime it is best if those that are early adopters of using e bikes on single track are sensitive to where they ride and how they ride there.
George S.
Well-Known Member
The original Bill, the Chiu Bill, had a distinct difference between the Class I and the Class 2. The throttle e bikes were allowed on paved paths but not on dirt. People reacted badly to that, and the Bill was amended. The way it reads now, and the PFB chart, is a bit goofy. I think the term of art is a distinction without a difference.
The Europeans basically would like to ban throttles, or they did when they were crafting the model legislation in California. To me it just makes a simple DIY ebike harder to build for the lowest possible cost. A throttle is a few bucks and, like you say, you can still pedal just fine. Who really is going to show up on serious MTB trails. Even with a real live dirt bike, with a gas motor, you’d have to be in some kind of shape.
A real issue is whether people should accept the rules, the California Model Law. They did it in Utah but they let the Class 3 on bike paths. They also said the 750 watt limit was output, not watt meter input wattage. Pretty generous.
On balance, it would be better if the 50 states accepted the categories, and the certification, which is the speed and watt limits. It’s an ebike, and it’s a special status since the 20 mph e bikes are treated like bikes.
I've ridden maybe 4,000 miles on e bikes, and a couple of them will work at 1200 watts. I don't think the 750 watt limit is a problem in any way. What it does tend to do is force people with 10% grades and up to go with a mid-drive. High watts can force hubs up hills. There is the two speed hub. So it hurts the 1500 watt hub. But there has to be a limit. The category is defined by a power setting. You can’t get around that. Go over 750 watts and it is not an ebike.
It may not be a national standard, but it’s hard to argue each state should go their own way. Utah tweaked the bill, and they don’t really want to enforce the certifications. The real problem with the California standard is that 750 watts isn’t really enough to go 28 mph, at least in adverse conditions.
If people don't like the 750 watts, they should be working to get regs that permit it. You want electric bikes to be bikes. That makes life a lot simpler. But the manufacturer has to certify the wattage and speed. There is a sticker on the bike. You can’t just go in and change the settings. It’s all classified as some kind of ‘crime’. If you are in an accident and you are committing a criminal act, then what? This takes effect 1/1/17, as I recall.
d) A person shall not tamper with or modify an electric bicycle described in subdivision (a) of Section 312.5 so as to change the speed capability of the bicycle, unless he or she appropriately replaces the label indicating the classification required in subdivision (c) of Section 312.5.
It seems to me the 750 watts is set in concrete. People should learn to live with it. It would be simpler if all states followed the ‘model’, but they don’t have to. At some point they will make e bikes for California and it will be hard(er) to change them for other states.
The Europeans basically would like to ban throttles, or they did when they were crafting the model legislation in California. To me it just makes a simple DIY ebike harder to build for the lowest possible cost. A throttle is a few bucks and, like you say, you can still pedal just fine. Who really is going to show up on serious MTB trails. Even with a real live dirt bike, with a gas motor, you’d have to be in some kind of shape.
A real issue is whether people should accept the rules, the California Model Law. They did it in Utah but they let the Class 3 on bike paths. They also said the 750 watt limit was output, not watt meter input wattage. Pretty generous.
On balance, it would be better if the 50 states accepted the categories, and the certification, which is the speed and watt limits. It’s an ebike, and it’s a special status since the 20 mph e bikes are treated like bikes.
I've ridden maybe 4,000 miles on e bikes, and a couple of them will work at 1200 watts. I don't think the 750 watt limit is a problem in any way. What it does tend to do is force people with 10% grades and up to go with a mid-drive. High watts can force hubs up hills. There is the two speed hub. So it hurts the 1500 watt hub. But there has to be a limit. The category is defined by a power setting. You can’t get around that. Go over 750 watts and it is not an ebike.
It may not be a national standard, but it’s hard to argue each state should go their own way. Utah tweaked the bill, and they don’t really want to enforce the certifications. The real problem with the California standard is that 750 watts isn’t really enough to go 28 mph, at least in adverse conditions.
If people don't like the 750 watts, they should be working to get regs that permit it. You want electric bikes to be bikes. That makes life a lot simpler. But the manufacturer has to certify the wattage and speed. There is a sticker on the bike. You can’t just go in and change the settings. It’s all classified as some kind of ‘crime’. If you are in an accident and you are committing a criminal act, then what? This takes effect 1/1/17, as I recall.
d) A person shall not tamper with or modify an electric bicycle described in subdivision (a) of Section 312.5 so as to change the speed capability of the bicycle, unless he or she appropriately replaces the label indicating the classification required in subdivision (c) of Section 312.5.
It seems to me the 750 watts is set in concrete. People should learn to live with it. It would be simpler if all states followed the ‘model’, but they don’t have to. At some point they will make e bikes for California and it will be hard(er) to change them for other states.
JRA
Well-Known Member
In Oregon, where I reside, you are allowed a 1000w limit and 20 mph. I don't figure that I am raising too many red flags throttling along at 23-24 mph and less when on MUP's and bike lanes. For that 20 mph is even too much sometimes. It is all about the user vs. the abuser. You will get that in many different areas of life.
It does bother me that the manufacturers are trying to remold the Federal Guidelines to the EU ones. A US spec e bike isn't any different than the comparable EU one other than programming of the controller. That is why they are all advertised as 250-350w with some as high as 500 because that is about the range available to them given the capability of the motor itself in order to please both markets. The fact that they are saying 750w is too much is just because they don't want to go there, at this time anyway, and I can only assume figure it is cheaper to throw money at getting the legislation more in line with their current models going forward.
750w will get you to 28mph on flat ground but factoring in wind resistance and terrain differentials it will not hold that for very long at a given time and that would include active pedaling in a gear appropriate to be able to add assistance at those speeds. I find that you need at least a 140" gear ratio to achieve this. I haven't seen a Speed Pedelec yet that has that high a gear ratio. Just pushing through the air past 25 mph is a watt hog. Your range will be shortened dramatically over a 20-24 mph average speed and that is a critical factor for me at least.
Also having traveled at those speeds your attention needs to be fully on the road in front of you whereas a slightly more sedate pace allows you to relax and enjoy the ride more. I am used to going fast on two wheels via motorcycles but going fast on a bicycle is different to me at least. But I enjoy combining the two more than I did just riding my moto for enjoyment. I like to think of my bikes as bicyclized motorcycles on one hand and motorized bicycles on the other.
It does bother me that the manufacturers are trying to remold the Federal Guidelines to the EU ones. A US spec e bike isn't any different than the comparable EU one other than programming of the controller. That is why they are all advertised as 250-350w with some as high as 500 because that is about the range available to them given the capability of the motor itself in order to please both markets. The fact that they are saying 750w is too much is just because they don't want to go there, at this time anyway, and I can only assume figure it is cheaper to throw money at getting the legislation more in line with their current models going forward.
750w will get you to 28mph on flat ground but factoring in wind resistance and terrain differentials it will not hold that for very long at a given time and that would include active pedaling in a gear appropriate to be able to add assistance at those speeds. I find that you need at least a 140" gear ratio to achieve this. I haven't seen a Speed Pedelec yet that has that high a gear ratio. Just pushing through the air past 25 mph is a watt hog. Your range will be shortened dramatically over a 20-24 mph average speed and that is a critical factor for me at least.
Also having traveled at those speeds your attention needs to be fully on the road in front of you whereas a slightly more sedate pace allows you to relax and enjoy the ride more. I am used to going fast on two wheels via motorcycles but going fast on a bicycle is different to me at least. But I enjoy combining the two more than I did just riding my moto for enjoyment. I like to think of my bikes as bicyclized motorcycles on one hand and motorized bicycles on the other.
justforfun
Active Member
Horses and cattle do more damage than any bicycle.
rustygun
New Member
Being the rebel at heart, I have always balked at laws created towards a new sport, and ebikes are a sport after all, albeit a spin off from peddle only systems. There is a Frenchman who used his paraglider motor/propeller backpack to push himself around France several years ago, he was stopped numerous times for the speed he was traveling (around 80kph) yet it was in the normal traffic lanes, which was posted at 80.
The law had no conditions for this mode of travel, but they stopped him none the less. At present the case is still being argued as to what exactly his bike is, seeing as he could indeed peddle the bike, but could inject forward motion with a 100cc engine driven propeller mounted on his body.
I think what conditions you intend to use your Ebike should be considered when legislation is suggested, ( or already passed) granted the inner city crowded public bike paths present a problem with excessive speed, but off road is just that, off road.... the entire argument towards gas driven ORV ( MC) was pollution and destruction of habitat, both of which are not present in off road ebiking. But wattage limitations seem present regardless where you ride ( excluding private property)
If 1000W gets you several hours in the desert or off road bike trails, then 3000W gets you even more, why should there be any limitations? Watts,Volts or amps aren't really a condition for a non registered off road vehicle. Common sense should dictate ebiking off road, rather than one sided legislation and prohibited usage.
The law had no conditions for this mode of travel, but they stopped him none the less. At present the case is still being argued as to what exactly his bike is, seeing as he could indeed peddle the bike, but could inject forward motion with a 100cc engine driven propeller mounted on his body.
I think what conditions you intend to use your Ebike should be considered when legislation is suggested, ( or already passed) granted the inner city crowded public bike paths present a problem with excessive speed, but off road is just that, off road.... the entire argument towards gas driven ORV ( MC) was pollution and destruction of habitat, both of which are not present in off road ebiking. But wattage limitations seem present regardless where you ride ( excluding private property)
If 1000W gets you several hours in the desert or off road bike trails, then 3000W gets you even more, why should there be any limitations? Watts,Volts or amps aren't really a condition for a non registered off road vehicle. Common sense should dictate ebiking off road, rather than one sided legislation and prohibited usage.
JRA
Well-Known Member
Not sure how 3000w would get you more, unless you mean power not riding time, unless you had 4 times the battery wh.
Alphbetadog
Active Member
Nearly 2 weeks ago I came across some serious mountain bikers on a the trail. Turns out one of them was Steve Tilford the 1st Mountain Bike champion and had many other numerous records as he had been racing professionally since 1975. Below is from his blog from meeting me on the trail and his first introduction to emtbs, from his perspective.
http://stevetilford.com/2016/12/16/electric-bike-encounter/
http://stevetilford.com/2016/12/16/electric-bike-encounter/
JRA
Well-Known Member
That's awesome he's a legend in the bike world. He also recently suffered major head trauma from a bicycle accident and is not fully recovered. I bet he was thinking the whole time that he wished he had come across you sooner!
The comments however are the usual bluster for the most part that is starting to sound like a broken record. The old if it has a motor its a motorcycle and fear of people charging up hill. There is something to people speeding on MUP's but you don't need a motor to do that and there will always be those that feel it is them above all others.
Over the next 5 years there will be many of those that now oppose it riding them and e bikes will become integrated in to the cycling infrastructure. But it is our duty as early adopters to help this along by being good citizens and riding responsibly. If you see others not being good perhaps remind them to be.
And to those that think that e bikes tear up the trails:
The comments however are the usual bluster for the most part that is starting to sound like a broken record. The old if it has a motor its a motorcycle and fear of people charging up hill. There is something to people speeding on MUP's but you don't need a motor to do that and there will always be those that feel it is them above all others.
Over the next 5 years there will be many of those that now oppose it riding them and e bikes will become integrated in to the cycling infrastructure. But it is our duty as early adopters to help this along by being good citizens and riding responsibly. If you see others not being good perhaps remind them to be.
And to those that think that e bikes tear up the trails:
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Alphbetadog
Active Member
JRA, there is no way that I as a mature emtbiker can tear up the trails anywhere near what these young bucks can do!
The reality is that an emtb allows me to climb the trails close to the speed young fit guys can do, but coming down I would certainly be much slower than them.
The reality is that an emtb allows me to climb the trails close to the speed young fit guys can do, but coming down I would certainly be much slower than them.
justforfun
Active Member
I hope those riders are on private land.
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[disclaimer: first post, no e-bike yet, researching and reading up] [English not my first language]
Interesting discussion, with both sides bringing up valid points well argued. It's definitely a hot topic and a fine line to walk. There is no right or wrong in my opinion, it really depends on where you stand on a lot of issues. Public area civil behaviour, personal responsibility, understanding that holding back technological advances is pointless, regulation versus common sense.
So either you trust in the common sense of the trail riders out there, which makes regulation unnecessary. Or you want to regulate "the dumb" away. I personally have little hope for individual restraint, and courtesy or sympathy towards other users in the public space . Maybe I'm too pessimistic, but the general attitude of the current Go-Pro generation is individualistic and entitled. Only the personal thrill is important and all else has to give way for the enjoyment of the individual.
Also, people tend not to be cautious or properly evaluate risk and hazard in the moment, until someone gets hurt. It's a shame to always have to learn after the facts, after it's too late.
In Europe there's really almost no electric powered MTBs around. So the issue is fairly non existent. But I'm sure they will be regulated once they start becoming a common sight.
My thoughts on a few things discussed here.
- damaging trails. I don't believe eMTBs are any more harmful or damaging to trails than regular MTBs are. I don't know about the trails in the US, but usually they are either hard packed dirt, or rocky, without any vegetation or plants to begin with. I don't think you can do much damage there, and if you do, you'd be doing the same kind of damage on non-eMTBs. I certainly hope people stay ON the trails and don't go ripping up plants and wildlife by going off the trails. But I would like to think that MTBers have some respect for the environment.
- bruised little ego's of the human powered cyclers: honestly who gives a ****. That's not even worth discussing. If riders are that thin skinned and whiney they'd better find another hobby. Why would you even care? I usually ride alone (non-eMTB), so it's me against the ride, on my tempo, with my skills. How does someone cycling up the hill with less effort leaving you in the dust, ruin or alter YOUR OWN experience? I just don't get it. You're there, with your equipment that you chose, knowing full well your and your bikes limitations. (difference of speed as a safety issue is something else)
- SPEED: Downhill it will make no difference. Gravity >> electric assistance. Specially on heavier bikes. So that's more or less a wash between non-eMTB and eMTB, no discernible difference there. This leaves uphill and level riding where a difference will be notable. Then it comes down to common sense again. Will you use the electric engine to extend your rides? Save some energy for other parts of the ride you might enjoy more? (downhill for example) Will you be going at similar speeds of a well trained pro-MTB'er? (1-1,25 x speed, just using some e-powered watts to help you out), then I see no issue. If you're basically taking a home built electric motocross bike into typical MTB playing grounds, riding 3x the average normal speed, then obviously somethings gotta give.
Again, if you're responsible enough to slow down when approaching kids/hikers/people walking their dogs/horses, then I see absolutely no problem. But I'm sure a few won't because they have a video rolling, and all it takes is a few bad apples to ruin things for everyone. That's how it always goes. Let's hope it doesn't come to that.
As long as the overall speed and riding profile of an eMTB is not that much different from a human powered MTB, no one will care. You'd be hard pressed to see the difference at a glance to be honest, especially with the modern well integrated designs of today (except for the noise perhaps).
- Another very good argument you read often is this: eMTBs will allow people who for whatever reason could not MTB anymore (age, distance on the trails, lowered physical shape, injuries) to pick up a bike and enjoy MTB'ing again, or allow them to keep riding with their buddies. Who can possibly be against that? That's perhaps the single most important argument to allow eMTBs on trails, ever, defeating all others. It's just a matter of community feel and solidarity.
- Regulation: where would you draw the line? The spectrum of e-bikes is so wide and fluid and the technologies so diverse, it's impossible to define a cut-off point. Before it used to be easy: Human powered (with the speeds that go with that) and engine powered (motorcycles).
Also, there's no point in regulating something you can not enforce. How will you possibly check this? Put people at every entry point of a particular forrest? Chase mountain bikers around the tracks?
Is 500Watt too much? 750? 1000? 3000? Today you can build something more like a 200cc motocross bike in a MTB frame with pedals just for good measure, is that still a bicycle? I do however share some concern about the latter. Big power in frames and forks that can't handle that load is going to lead to accidents (loosing control/crashes) both for yourself and others.
As a closer, take look at this (not a MTB-trail, but precisely the sort of behaviour and bad apples that will ruin it for everyone).
Watch the first four minutes. Those are lanes for recreational usage. Kids, families with strollers, runners, commuters, ... NOT 75 kph machines. That machine for me is a motorcycle on skinny tires. The fact that he can make it past the gates at the beginning of those paths means nothing anymore and doesn't justify him being there. I can technically squeeze my motorcycle through there too, but no one would think that's an appropriate place to be with a motorcycle.
And if I would be on those paths, smelling the roses as it were, walking a dog, I would definitely not appreciate what this guy is doing. Imagine he startles a dog and runs into a leash or something. That thing is heavy and can do some serious damage when run into a runner at 75kph, like breaking a lot of bones kinda damage.
Interesting discussion, with both sides bringing up valid points well argued. It's definitely a hot topic and a fine line to walk. There is no right or wrong in my opinion, it really depends on where you stand on a lot of issues. Public area civil behaviour, personal responsibility, understanding that holding back technological advances is pointless, regulation versus common sense.
So either you trust in the common sense of the trail riders out there, which makes regulation unnecessary. Or you want to regulate "the dumb" away. I personally have little hope for individual restraint, and courtesy or sympathy towards other users in the public space . Maybe I'm too pessimistic, but the general attitude of the current Go-Pro generation is individualistic and entitled. Only the personal thrill is important and all else has to give way for the enjoyment of the individual.
Also, people tend not to be cautious or properly evaluate risk and hazard in the moment, until someone gets hurt. It's a shame to always have to learn after the facts, after it's too late.
In Europe there's really almost no electric powered MTBs around. So the issue is fairly non existent. But I'm sure they will be regulated once they start becoming a common sight.
My thoughts on a few things discussed here.
- damaging trails. I don't believe eMTBs are any more harmful or damaging to trails than regular MTBs are. I don't know about the trails in the US, but usually they are either hard packed dirt, or rocky, without any vegetation or plants to begin with. I don't think you can do much damage there, and if you do, you'd be doing the same kind of damage on non-eMTBs. I certainly hope people stay ON the trails and don't go ripping up plants and wildlife by going off the trails. But I would like to think that MTBers have some respect for the environment.
- bruised little ego's of the human powered cyclers: honestly who gives a ****. That's not even worth discussing. If riders are that thin skinned and whiney they'd better find another hobby. Why would you even care? I usually ride alone (non-eMTB), so it's me against the ride, on my tempo, with my skills. How does someone cycling up the hill with less effort leaving you in the dust, ruin or alter YOUR OWN experience? I just don't get it. You're there, with your equipment that you chose, knowing full well your and your bikes limitations. (difference of speed as a safety issue is something else)
- SPEED: Downhill it will make no difference. Gravity >> electric assistance. Specially on heavier bikes. So that's more or less a wash between non-eMTB and eMTB, no discernible difference there. This leaves uphill and level riding where a difference will be notable. Then it comes down to common sense again. Will you use the electric engine to extend your rides? Save some energy for other parts of the ride you might enjoy more? (downhill for example) Will you be going at similar speeds of a well trained pro-MTB'er? (1-1,25 x speed, just using some e-powered watts to help you out), then I see no issue. If you're basically taking a home built electric motocross bike into typical MTB playing grounds, riding 3x the average normal speed, then obviously somethings gotta give.
Again, if you're responsible enough to slow down when approaching kids/hikers/people walking their dogs/horses, then I see absolutely no problem. But I'm sure a few won't because they have a video rolling, and all it takes is a few bad apples to ruin things for everyone. That's how it always goes. Let's hope it doesn't come to that.
As long as the overall speed and riding profile of an eMTB is not that much different from a human powered MTB, no one will care. You'd be hard pressed to see the difference at a glance to be honest, especially with the modern well integrated designs of today (except for the noise perhaps).
- Another very good argument you read often is this: eMTBs will allow people who for whatever reason could not MTB anymore (age, distance on the trails, lowered physical shape, injuries) to pick up a bike and enjoy MTB'ing again, or allow them to keep riding with their buddies. Who can possibly be against that? That's perhaps the single most important argument to allow eMTBs on trails, ever, defeating all others. It's just a matter of community feel and solidarity.
- Regulation: where would you draw the line? The spectrum of e-bikes is so wide and fluid and the technologies so diverse, it's impossible to define a cut-off point. Before it used to be easy: Human powered (with the speeds that go with that) and engine powered (motorcycles).
Also, there's no point in regulating something you can not enforce. How will you possibly check this? Put people at every entry point of a particular forrest? Chase mountain bikers around the tracks?
Is 500Watt too much? 750? 1000? 3000? Today you can build something more like a 200cc motocross bike in a MTB frame with pedals just for good measure, is that still a bicycle? I do however share some concern about the latter. Big power in frames and forks that can't handle that load is going to lead to accidents (loosing control/crashes) both for yourself and others.
As a closer, take look at this (not a MTB-trail, but precisely the sort of behaviour and bad apples that will ruin it for everyone).
Watch the first four minutes. Those are lanes for recreational usage. Kids, families with strollers, runners, commuters, ... NOT 75 kph machines. That machine for me is a motorcycle on skinny tires. The fact that he can make it past the gates at the beginning of those paths means nothing anymore and doesn't justify him being there. I can technically squeeze my motorcycle through there too, but no one would think that's an appropriate place to be with a motorcycle.
And if I would be on those paths, smelling the roses as it were, walking a dog, I would definitely not appreciate what this guy is doing. Imagine he startles a dog and runs into a leash or something. That thing is heavy and can do some serious damage when run into a runner at 75kph, like breaking a lot of bones kinda damage.
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Nailed it!!!
Hi all,
New to this forum, but find this thread very interesting. To answer the slightly confusing statement-question "Why Electric Bikes Shouldn't Be Allowed on Mountain Biking Trails?". I myself can not find any reason that pedal assist eMTB (Class 1) shouldn't be allowed on mountain biking trails. Fortunately, for me, Gov. Jerry Brown agrees, and I ride mine all over O.C. CA, single track and all...legally!!! Anyone want to meet up in Laguna Beach and go for a ride?
New to this forum, but find this thread very interesting. To answer the slightly confusing statement-question "Why Electric Bikes Shouldn't Be Allowed on Mountain Biking Trails?". I myself can not find any reason that pedal assist eMTB (Class 1) shouldn't be allowed on mountain biking trails. Fortunately, for me, Gov. Jerry Brown agrees, and I ride mine all over O.C. CA, single track and all...legally!!! Anyone want to meet up in Laguna Beach and go for a ride?
Ann M.
Well-Known Member
There is so much that is misleading and confusing since a 350 watt hub motor does not have the power output of a 350 watt mid drive. We're talking 35 - 40 Nm for the hub and 80 - 90 Nm for a 350 watt mid drive. Remember, it's not just brute speed that propels a rider up a hill; you need torque, which is that climbing ability.
A 750 watt mid drive would be pretty awesome for both cases of speed and torque for most riders except for those who think they need to go as fast as a car. Then they face other safety issues based on the strength of the frame and adequate brakes for speed exceeding 35mph. Most of the issues about ebikes on trails comes from a lack of awareness or experience with the ebikes currently available; with some false thoughts that these bikes do more harm than a regular mountain bike. Much of this haze is a result of bikes or production product advertised as an ebike when it is actually a motorcycle; example, Stealth Bomber at 50mph. That product is not an ebike but a motorcycle that is electric.
A 750 watt mid drive would be pretty awesome for both cases of speed and torque for most riders except for those who think they need to go as fast as a car. Then they face other safety issues based on the strength of the frame and adequate brakes for speed exceeding 35mph. Most of the issues about ebikes on trails comes from a lack of awareness or experience with the ebikes currently available; with some false thoughts that these bikes do more harm than a regular mountain bike. Much of this haze is a result of bikes or production product advertised as an ebike when it is actually a motorcycle; example, Stealth Bomber at 50mph. That product is not an ebike but a motorcycle that is electric.
"Much of this haze is a result of bikes or production product advertised as an ebike when it is actually a motorcycle; example, Stealth Bomber at 50mph."
There's no shortage of people who make them and those who ride them who consider anything with an electric motor and pedals an ebike. It's an issue that those of us who would like to ride legal ebikes shouldn't ignore. We'll all get painted with the same brush.
https://electricbike-blog.com/2016/...r-street-legal-ebike-build-something-awesome/
There's no shortage of people who make them and those who ride them who consider anything with an electric motor and pedals an ebike. It's an issue that those of us who would like to ride legal ebikes shouldn't ignore. We'll all get painted with the same brush.
https://electricbike-blog.com/2016/...r-street-legal-ebike-build-something-awesome/
Ann M.
Well-Known Member
So what's your point @Nutella? There's room for both and I've built a number of higher watt systems on heavy electric trikes to compensate for the extra weight and some systems for folks who were adamant about speed but do we call something that does 50mph an ebike? You walk into a motorcycle shop and you can buy a little gas powered ride that goes about the same or less but it has to be registered and insured, same as with a Zero or Brammo Electric Motorcycle along with other Chinese product. None of those can be ridden in a bike lane or on the sidewalks, they're offroad or solely street vehicles. Here, in Austin ebikes that are legally classified as a bike have a few more options as to where they can ride to keep them safe from car traffic or have the additional plus of popping onto the front of a city bus.
George S.
Well-Known Member
Sure, if someone rides a 1500 watt electric bike on a bike path and plows into someone, the authorities could take the easy way out and say "We don't need electric bikes of any kind on the bike paths."
I don't know if Karl has made the case that high power ebikes would be a big selling point. First off, after California, it can't really happen. Second, you are better off with a basic Zero if you are out in traffic, in a city. So it's about license and registration and insurance. You say "I won't pay those costs and I'll pretend I'm an ebike". It's your decision and most of the time it 'works out'. You don't get in an accident. You don't get stopped by a cop.
I think there is a one violation rule. If they catch you once, they do something restrained. But you are in the system with a violation of some kind, even a warning. Do it again? They aren't so nice.
I've got no issues with high powered ebike existing and people riding them, I'm just worried that idiots on the bike path or hiking trail riding a 3000w bike will do more damage to ebike reputation than an idiot on a 250w bike. Instead of pretending they are the same, if 30+mph bikes were classified as mopeds and restricted to the same places it would be better for everyone.
"First off, after California, it can't really happen."
Huh? I think the CA laws actually opened the doors to call any ebike "legal" and the makers and sellers just look the other way. Neither of these are legal under CA law, but they say they are and they're all located in CA, so you'd think they'd know.
http://overvolted.com/bolt-m-1-electric-bike-now-available-for-pre-order/
https://www.lithiumcycles.com/
At least Luna tells you it's not, but it sure wouldn't stop me from riding it on the street.
https://lunacycle.com/luna-cycle-super-banana-ebike-racing-edition/
"First off, after California, it can't really happen."
Huh? I think the CA laws actually opened the doors to call any ebike "legal" and the makers and sellers just look the other way. Neither of these are legal under CA law, but they say they are and they're all located in CA, so you'd think they'd know.
http://overvolted.com/bolt-m-1-electric-bike-now-available-for-pre-order/
https://www.lithiumcycles.com/
At least Luna tells you it's not, but it sure wouldn't stop me from riding it on the street.
https://lunacycle.com/luna-cycle-super-banana-ebike-racing-edition/
tomjasz
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- Minnesnowta
Sadly this is turning into a hot button subject. Entire forums exist where this can be hashed out. I hope we can keep it on an even keel here. Needing canes to walk, but still having enough balance to ride, most MTB clubs around here would give a pass to a reasonable disabled rider. The trails here are developed and maintained by MTB clubs. I think they should be respected. There are great snowmobile trails here that would make excellent single tracks for the 3000w bikes. I think they're pretty cool. Sensible riders use appropriate trails. One small objection, I think low level assist bikes should be allowed on all trails. Sadly near impossible to manage. Respect, that's what's needed. The sense of entitlement is not being respectful.
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