Why do so few brands offer 52V (volt) batteries?

[tomjasz]

I'm lost apparently.

I don't bother with some posts anymore. The difference between a Google education and real-life experience. Best ignored in my case IMNSHO.

 

[Kam1936]

I can tell you right now why I cite my sources, to add credibility & to give the reader to decide whether or not the information is valuable.
If you don't think it is, it's fine, that's why I provide sources.

If I don't have a source, I will just let people know that's it is from of my memory, and I don't pretend to know what I'm talking about with 100% certainty.

However, a college kid like myself do not have what you call a "life experience" , that said, I can still research and cite other people's research or comment.
Where you get your sources does matter.

It seems to me that, to you, it doesn't matter where the source is coming from, as long as it can be found on Google, you immediately dismiss it as "Google education"

Although it is true that there are unreliable information out there, I normally cite people's (some are well known in ebike industry) comments or refer to the manufacture's spec sheets.

Even if I cite something from Grin Technologies, EBR interview of bike company owners, Bosch or Yamaha representatives, you will simply dismiss it as simple Google education.

Okay, explain to me, why do I need to take YOUR word over other company owners or even engineers words. I get it, nothing is 100%, but why you?
I think you have something to offer, and no, I don't think you were lying when you posted (your post is also just a Google post) that certain companies do not put good BMS and all that.
However, with your logic, many people will dismiss your comment as a Google education too, "oh, some random guy on internet said that this BMS is not good? who is he? how reliable is this source?"

Anyways, my point is, I don't see a problem citing other people's sources, and it is up to the reader to decide the credibility.

The people I cited, they have their own "real life experience" too, but you somehow trying to convince that your "real life experience" is far more valuable than anyone else in the industry.
And no, you did not say that, in case you're gonna go like "oh did I ever say that?" But that's almost what it seems like, to me anyways.

Okay, I will eventually get my life
experience too, just give me 50 years.

Just because sources are cited doesn't make them credible. They may be biased or have an agenda of their own. Real life or empirical experience is not going by what others tell you but actually finding out for yourself. (Ride both bikes in similar circumstances). I've been to College. I've also lived in war torn ghettos and the suburbs. I know what statistics say but those can be slanted too. Man knows nothing by being told(really). In order for him to know, he must himself be what he knows.

 

[cuwatra]

Ancient Chinese Secret...

Guess what? It's Calgon.

 

[Kam1936]

No, absolutely not, I agree with you 100%.

That's why I said that it is up to the reader to decide if it was credible. I said that it's fine if you think it's not.

I also mentioned that Thomas does have something to offer, like that BMS argument, which is a good point.
But I also mentioned that even his words are in the end, nothing more than a blog post that can be found on Google.

I get your point, I can't learn anything only by hearing a story, in the end, story is not a substitute for real life experience.

But my problem is that, if several people are making arguments, say Thomas and other five people in the ebike industry, which one should I decide to be more credible?
They all have their own "real life experience" in the industry. Should just jump on to Thomas' comment as an absolute truth and everyone else in the industry as a Google education?

In layman's terms, I rode both bikes. The Juiced Bike despite its bragged about 52 V 19.2 Ah battery struggled on hills. It protested(battery/motor) while climbing and depleted significantly. I'm not making this stuff up. It's also true that I was able to maintain speeds of 15 to 16 MPH easily unassisted where the Juiced Bike could not. That's another reason why I had greater range. I pretty much rode over 11 miles unassisted in traffic. Roscoe Blvd and Balboa. All the while my friend was in ECO or 1 assist to comfortably keep my pace. I prefer the mid-drive, although his bike is equipped with torque + cadence sensor.
Once again, I wouldn't want to own one "after experiencing the mid-drive on my Vado." I can easily get 100 miles with moderate hills assisted/unassisted. I get more than a mile with every percent. I traveled 25 miles before my battery dropped below 80%. On God!! Believe it or not. I was pedalling assisted most of the time ECO. And a minute or two in Sport. I also dialed down the default settings 35/20 75/60 100/80 max motor output 100/80. And there you have it.

 

[AHicks]

Timpo, keep reading and asking questions. Your fine. I just struggle with some of your "expert" opinions, and I'm going to call you out on the ones I struggle most with - whether I understand the thought any better than you do or not. It does help to know where the heck you're coming from on occasion.... -Al

 

[TomD]

Weren't you the one confusing rotational mass with unsprung weight?

 

[AHicks]

Weren't you the one confusing rotational mass with unsprung weight?

Pretty clear on both those concepts. Where I was confused was regarding the question, and the point being made.

 

[antboy]

yeah it is. That's why Stromer can have this lock mode to lock the bike using the motor.

but he was talking about Juiced, which comes with Bafang geared hub.

True that. He was also comparing an 80 lb 26" x 4" beast to a svelte 50ish lb 27.5" x 1.95" hybrid (even though he said he wasn't)

Getting down to brass tacks, if you ride acoustic versions of those two bike styles with the same weight differential in the same scenario, your legs will very quickly tell you where your energy is going.

 

[ElevenAD]

Wasn't trying to compare, I was just disputing the 52 V battery findings. Another thing I noticed was the 52 V battery depleted much faster going up steep hills ( Up Sierra Highway from the old rd). The mid drive I could pedal in ECO at a lower gear whereas the Juiced Bike, it was necessary to get up the hill in highest mode. Probably due to the heavy weight of the bike and the motor being in the rear. I didn't notice any acceleration advantage Juiced Bike had over the Turbo Vado's mid drive. Other than his bike was also equipped with a throttle. I don't know if it's possible to integrate that power 52V 19.2 750 w with Vado's system and the way it was designed. I feel plenty of power with 36 V 16.8 Ah accompanied with the Brose motor. I like to ride my bike like a regular bike and only use assistance when needed. When I do use assistance ECO is fine. I seldom use Sport or Turbo. At an average rate of speed of 14 mph assisted/unassisted 100 mile range is attainable with moderate hills. I'm more concerned about range than high speeds.

no actually you are comparing and your findings have zero validity because your comparing to different drive systems, why would you even mention a Brose mid drive? rig a 52v pack to a turbo Vado and compare it to your 36volt and then maybe you would have a valid comparison. the topic of the thread was batteries! not my $5000 mid drive is better than a $2000 hub motor bike.

 

[Kam1936]

no actually you are comparing and your findings have zero validity because your comparing to different drive systems, why would you even mention a Brose mid drive? rig a 52v pack to a turbo Vado and compare it to your 36volt and then maybe you would have a valid comparison. the topic of the thread was batteries! not my $5000 mid drive is better than a $2000 hub motor bike.

The topic wasn't batteries, it was a specific battery (52 Volts). Like I said, I wasn't impressed with the performance. The question was why do few brands offer the 52 volt? Don't hate. Congratulate. Not impressed with it. That's all I'm saying. ✌ out.

 

[Kam1936]

no actually you are comparing and your findings have zero validity because your comparing to different drive systems, why would you even mention a Brose mid drive? rig a 52v pack to a turbo Vado and compare it to your 36volt and then maybe you would have a valid comparison. the topic of the thread was batteries! not my $5000 mid drive is better than a $2000 hub motor bike.

I wouldn't want to rig that thing to my beloved Turbo. The combination of the design 36 volt/ Brose is enough for me. I did because I could. I rode the bike with the battery pointed out in this thread. I wasn't impressed.

 

[cuwatra]

no actually you are comparing and your findings have zero validity because your comparing to different drive systems, why would you even mention a Brose mid drive? rig a 52v pack to a turbo Vado and compare it to your 36volt and then maybe you would have a valid comparison. the topic of the thread was batteries! not my $5000 mid drive is better than a $2000 hub motor bike.

Boy, thanks. Somebody else finally gets it with this poster. He makes about as much sense most of the time as a screen door on a submarine.

 

[JohnT]

I think what we can all take from this thread is that answers aren’t as simple as many of us think. There’s no single best setup, whether that means voltage or motor type or any number of things.

Regarding the popularity of 52v vs 48v, most Pedegos sold are 52v, and Pedego is one of the best selling ebike brands in the US, so there are a lot of 52v batteries out on the road! The ones I’m talking about are the “48v” plastic case batteries that have been available on Intercepters and City Commuters since about 2014 or maybe 2013. The most popular Pedego battery is 14s5p.

Having 52v is nice, but it’s not that different from 48v. I don’t think buyers of production ebikes should place much importance on it. If you’re a DIYer, that’s different. A good DIYer has more diverse options available and needs more knowledge to make good, informed decisions.

 

[Kam1936]

Boy, thanks. Somebody else finally gets it with this poster. He makes about as much sense most of the time as a screen door on a submarine.

Be nice. Try to control yourself. Be patient with those who don't have a PHD in Cycleology like you and your cronies.

 

[TomD]

Not to hijack the topic further, but I thought this was a pretty good article explaining the impact of increased wheel mass:

We Can Prove Why Extra Mass on Bike Wheels Is Your Worst Enemy

There's a saying that adding mass to the wheel of a bike has twice the impact compared to adding the same mass to the frame. Why would that be true?

www.wired.com

Note that additional mass on the wheel vs. frame doesn't require more effort to ride up a hill (that has more to do with change in stored gravitational energy). Similarly, remove friction, air resistance, etc. from the equation as wheel vs. frame mass doesn't impact those much. Just focus on kinetic energy, specifically the energy required to change speed from X to Y. Some select quotes:

An increase in speed means an increase in kinetic energy

more mass would mean more energy required to speed up

But does it matter where this mass is located? Does it take more energy to increase speed if you put the mass on the wheel? Yes.

In that case, I must do two things to increase speed: increase the kinetic energy and increase the rotational kinetic energy of the wheel.

 

[Kam1936]

Whatever. Motor designers, and I've spoken with a number of them in coming up with custom builds for over 60 clients, we know you are wrong just from a physics standpoint. Unfortunately, Your point about weight really blows your credibility, as wind resistance above 20 mph is an exponentially increasing force, and weight of even an additional 10 to 20 lbs is minuscule to affecting speed or power needed versus the forces you encounter from wind resistance. Any professional cyclist knows that to be true in spades which is why they are constantly training in wind tunnels to perfect their aerodynamics.

(Link Removed - No Longer Exists)
This link really blows your credibility. It advertises the Blok 2.2 TFT as being compatible to Mission Control app. It isn't. It advertises an older motor instead of the Brose 1.3 that is originally specified with this bike. And the wheels/28spokes. Should be 32 front DT Swiss and Rear 28 Dr Swiss. The tires and drive train don't match up either. I own a 2019 Turbo Vado 5.0. I just recently had my display upgraded to the TCD - w kit that works with Mission Control app.

 

[Kam1936]

(Link Removed - No Longer Exists)
This link really blows your credibility. It advertises the Blok 2.2 TFT as being compatible to Mission Control app. It isn't. It advertises an older motor instead of the Brose 1.3 that is originally specified with this bike. And the wheels/28spokes. Should be 32 front DT Swiss and Rear 28 Dr Swiss. The tires and drive train don't match up either. I own a 2019 Turbo Vado 5.0. I just recently had my display upgraded to the TCD - w kit that works with Mission Control app.

Specialized removed any evidence of this bike from their website. Probably due to people like me who purchased this bike thinking Mission Control would work with it(Blok 2.2 display) as they advertised. Luckily my lbs made it right because they thought the Blok display worked with the app too.

 

[Kam1936]

It appears there are two similar names. Mike's Bikes and Mike's E-bikes. The owner of Mike's Bikes has a chain of bike stores in Northern California. If this is not you I apologize. The other Mike's Ebikes is located in Illinois and does not advertise this bike.

 

[pennybags]

Hey watts wagon guy, is this real? https://wattwagons.com/products/titan

 

[pushkar]

hey @pennybags Accidentally published something. Site is not quite ready yet.