Why did Tora stop using dealers to sell bikes?

[KAM1952]

Anyone know why Juiced stopped using dealers? Are they in finacial difficultes?

 

[Nova Haibike]

I'm sure Tora will answer, but it seems like Juiced already has trouble filling orders; they sell them faster than they can make them. If they can't produce enough, they certainly can't provide inventory for dealers to sell.

 

[KAM1952]

Just wondering if I bought a DeLoren! There is a dealer in NZ that is very upset, claims it cost him thousand of dollars when Juiced stopped providing him bikes.

 

[Nova Haibike]

Just wondering if I bought a DeLoren!

Even if Juiced went out of business, it would not be a problem. There are essentially no proprietary parts involved...it is a normal bike with a motorized hub. If anything breaks or wears out, it can be replaced with a similar if not identical component.

 

[KAM1952]

How about the controller. Do you have a Haibike?

 

[Nova Haibike]

Yes, I have a (Yamaha powered) Haibike.

I am definitely ignorant about e-bike electronics, but even if the controller on your bike went bad, surely Bafang would have a compatible controller available.

 

[Asher]

Just wondering if I bought a DeLoren! There is a dealer in NZ that is very upset, claims it cost him thousand of dollars when Juiced stopped providing him bikes.

I think that dealer is using a liberal definition of cost. That's a loss of potential business, not a cost.

I'm guessing Juiced has a higher margin on direct to customer and little supply, so they might as well 'hog' all the Juice for themselves.

They still sell the bike retail under the brand American Flyer. The bikes are identical, except no RCS.

 

[Bruce Arnold]

Asher's got a good guess there. The margins on Juiced Bikes, since they are already bargain-priced, have got to be low. Maybe too low for Juiced to make anything, if they sell them at wholesale to dealers.

 

[Asher]

Also, I spoke to a bike shop owner who has worked with Tora in the past, and sells the white labeled Juiced, American Flyer bikes. He said something about working with Juiced's marketing director, and how they may work out some referral agreement for Juiced Bikes.

It sounded something like a showrooming-agreement - bike shops have a couple floor models, and then customers test in the store and get the bike delivered straight from Juiced's SD warehouse. The bike shop gets a small cut, say $50-$100, plus a valuable service relationship potentially.

But that's all pointless when you sell out of supply through your website alone.

The retail AF bikes cost $100 more, though they may come with some free service from the shop (and I'm sure the shops are buying them for less than the price for us, $1,699). $100 more may easily be worth it, for avoiding the risk of buying a bike you don't like because you can't test ride it, alone.

It may also be difficult to sell the same branded bike for different prices, direct vs in store. I wonder what shipping costs per bike are for home delivery vs shop delivery in bulk.

https://www.americanflyerbicycle.com/e-wave-ewave-tour-specs/

 

[Dunbar]

That looks like an open standard Chinese frame with the Cross Current Air drivetrain, rack, fenders and lights. They aren’t advertising it with a torque sensor. At $1799 with the 13Ah battery this seems to support the idea that there isn’t enough margin for dealers in the Juiced products unless they raise the prices. That said, I bought my original Cross Current through a dealer and they have been invaluable to me for warranty work.

 

[Ant]

Just wondering if I bought a DeLoren! There is a dealer in NZ that is very upset, claims it cost him thousand of dollars when Juiced stopped providing him bikes.

Hi Kam1952... Just wondering what part of New Zealand you are in? I Also have a CCS and am in Nelson area. Probably have the only Juiced bike here! Got my bike from Christchurch. A bit concerned when I need a major part replaced! Love the bike and it's going well. Would like Juiced Bikes to ship parts internationally, especially now that they don't have a NZ agent. The bike shop I got my bike from still has some parts, so that's good for now.

 

[Asher]

That looks like an open standard Chinese frame with the Cross Current Air drivetrain, rack, fenders and lights. They aren’t advertising it with a torque sensor. At $1799 with the 13Ah battery this seems to support the idea that there isn’t enough margin for dealers in the Juiced products unless they raise the prices. That said, I bought my original Cross Current through a dealer and they have been invaluable to me for warranty work.

I have spoken to multiple bike shop workers/owners who explicitly said they are the same bikes, though you look to be right about the torque sensor, I didn't catch that. I think @Ravi Kempaiah can confirm the relationship as well.

Just look at the battery range charts, they're identical to Juiced's.

Either Juiced faces higher overhead costs than they initially anticipated, or the dealer relationship was only temporary to begin with to get some initial momentum. I do think the showroom model has promise though.

 

[Dunbar]

>I have spoken to multiple bike shop workers/owners who explicitly said they are the same bikes, though you look to be right about the torque sensor, I didn't catch that.

I would agree with the exception of the frame and torque sensor. That frame doesn’t look like any of the Cross Current frames. It actually looks like one of the frames you see on Alibaba. Both the high step and step-thru Cross Currents have a straight top tube.

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

Thriving businesses like Lunacycles, RadPower, M2S, FLX etc have made it difficult for established companies to operate the same way they did.
People are often enticed by low upfront cost (very few take into account the overall cost of maintenance, repair, warranty) and they jump onto these brands. Most people also end up using the bike for recreational purposes, very few people are hardcore commuters putting in 1000's of miles, so as a result, cost band of $1.5K to $2K is where the lions share is.
In a situation like this, it's hard for a small company like Juiced to support the wide dealer network and provide them margins.

I think Tora is trying to make everything modular on the bike so when there is a situation, the part can be replaced easily without needing an expert mechanic.

He is also someone who is trying to provide exceptional value to his customers rather than just rebranding some chinese bike and selling it with % profit.

@Bruce Arnold point of up and coming businesses having issues with logistics, support is very valid. I really hope @Tora Harris can bring on-board few more people for customer support and streamline the demand-supply chain.

 

[Asher]

>I have spoken to multiple bike shop workers/owners who explicitly said they are the same bikes, though you look to be right about the torque sensor, I didn't catch that.

I would agree with the exception of the frame and torque sensor. That frame doesn’t look like any of the Cross Current frames. It actually looks like one of the frames you see on Alibaba. Both the high step and step-thru Cross Currents have a straight top tube.

Ah you're right again! . Now that I look at my CCS beside me, I see it has a flat top tube whereas those pictured do not. I assume Tora's wouldn't go for a pricier custom job if it weren't better, but the difference to the end user may not be big.

Thanks for the insight Ravi, and I am definitely in the hardcore commuter category. The relative popularity of fatbikes suggests that recreational use is still very prominent, but who knows, it could be a 'gateway' to utility use. Will be interesting to see used prices on CCS vs RCS/fatbikes, that's a good gauge.

 

[jazz]

Juiced has no problem selling ebikes on their own website. No real need for dealer network. They are not high volume enough. Plus the current Juiced model of pre-selling existing and new models a few months before delivery doesn't really work for a dealer network. They need already be in stock and ready for purchase. Same with parts and accessories.

 

[mal robot]

Battery & controller are going to be the hardest parts to replace if Juiced dies, since they're custom. Battery will definitely die at some point (depending on usage). Motor will probably need replacement gears at some point, but since it's some Bafang model, probably some e-bike shops will have them on hand.

re: dealers not selling them. What I heard from two dealers here in SoCal is that they stopped selling them due to a poor relationship with Juiced customer service, e.g. their customer comes in with a broken {wheel, controller, spokes} and getting Juiced to send them replacement parts takes multiple weeks of badgering. I've had similar experiences as a customer.

 

[Bruce Arnold]

The Reention Dorado battery is what Juiced originally used. Not custom. They are readily available. Not in the larger sizes IIRC but at least you'd still have a battery.

 

[Rooster]

Even if Juiced went out of business, it would not be a problem. There are essentially no proprietary parts involved...it is a normal bike with a motorized hub. If anything breaks or wears out, it can be replaced with a similar if not identical component.

Good luck with the battery, small controller that is supposed to fit in the frame, etc.etc.

 

[JoePah]

The Reention Dorado battery is what Juiced originally used. Not custom. They are readily available. Not in the larger sizes IIRC but at least you'd still have a battery.

Those new frames and batteries look very custom, like they were built for Juiced bike.. Still it's just an eBike and there's always someone to replace a part, or built a battery pack.